Subject: SMML VOL 993 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 01:59:48 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Photographing models the easy way 2: Re: CGC Eastwind 3: Painting windows and potholes 4: Re: China 5: Re: Bradford Chaucer's query re: Creamcoat 6: Russian Sub 7: USCG plan list 8: HMS Minotaur of 1947? 9: Russian sub sinking 10: Various... 11: Re: Pearl Harbor 12: IPMS Judging 13: Re: Brtain's WW1 entry 14: Re: Judging criteria (accuracy) 15: Revell's 1/350 New Jersey 16: Splinter shields 17: A prayer for the Russian submarine sailors 18: Fletchers 19: Nave Obit' 20: Re: Edgar March book 21: Shoho 22: Re: FSM 23: Re: Co's Boat, USS Midway 24: Pearl Harbor Phoney 25: Re: Soviet sub 26: Re: Typhoon 27: Re: Paints 28: Navy Hull Numbers 29: Re: Acrylic artists paint 30: Historical Fiction 31: Re: Russian sub & New Jersey 32: Variations in MS 32/33 camouflage question 33: Re: IPMS judging criteria 34: Last four Kuwaiti missile craft begin journey home 35: Re: Roosevelt and the Navy 36: PCU Churchill tests modified gun at sea 37: Russian Sub Sinking 38: IPMS Regional in Phoenix 39: Russian Sub Down 40: Submarines 41: USS Vestal 42: A Sad Record of Submarine Disasters 43: USS Pecos AO-6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Building a modern USS NJ? 2: IMM - Seeking Contributions 3: New from Model Ship Journal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Photographing models the easy way After reading the posts yesterday about FSM's standards for photography, I thought I would pass on a great technique that Terry Thompson (Editor FSM) passed on to me. Using a flash, I used to have all kinds of problems getting a well exposed shot. Most of the time the photo over exposed or under exposed and I wasted a lot of film just to get a good shot. This technique makes taking perfect photos for publication easy. I do it now, and have never taken a bad photo yet using this set up. There's no need to spend a ton of money photographing models for publication in FSM. I use a 35 mm SLR camera, a tripod (required for this set up) two hood clamp lights, 100 speed film and a makeshift background. That's it. Besides the film and camera, total investment of about $60.00. The hood clamp lights are just that. I found mine in the auto dept. at Wal Mart. They are what shade tree mechanics use to work on cars. They have a heavy duty clamp on the end to attach to a cars hood. They also have a large reflector that is perfect for model photography to insure even lighting. I set up a make shift studio in my office on my desk. I have a light blue poster board for a backdrop. FSM will NOT publish photos with a work desk, or cluttered background. I curve the backdrop up and tape to the wall behind my desk. The hood lights (with 100 watt bulbs) are clamped to whatever I can find to clamp them to, a chair, door etc. Once the lights are clamped one on each side of the "studio", you're ready to shoot. I suggest using 100 speed film in your camera because I know it works. Also, be aware you are shooting under incandescent lighting which will cast a yellow tint to your photos. There are two ways around this depending on how much money you wish to spend. I have a blue polarizing filter on my cameras lens to counter the yellow tint. Failing that, you can purchase 100 speed film specially made for shooting under incandescent lighting. The filter will cost about $10.00. Well worth it since with the filter, you can purchase your film at Wal Mart. No need to use a flash unit with the lighting you now have. Set your F-stop to 22, put your camera on the tripod, and your ready to shoot. The camera will set the exposure for you now. Using F-22 will sometimes take a few seconds of exposure, but it will be perfect every time. If you are using a darker backdrop, it will take even longer, but it makes no difference. That's why you use the tripod. The camera will perfectly expose the shot every time. If you take your photos outside, you don't even need the lights or the filter. Try this once, and you'll never have problems with poor photos again. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Re: CGC Eastwind Hello Bruce, The USCG Museum in Seattle does have Wind Class plans. I know, I got a set from them. Onother good sourse is the USCG Historian's office in Washington. They kind of specialize in USCG stuff. I received some incredible photos from them including close ups of the Duck mounting and of the Ms. 16 patterns on both the horizontal and vertical surfaces as well and stern configurations. Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Ata Bilgili Subject: Painting windows and potholes Friends; What are your methods for painting ship windows and potholes, especially on 1/600 and 1/450 scale models? I checked FAQ and some other resources but could not find a satisfactory answer. Thank you, Ata Bilgili -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Al Superczynski Subject: Re: China On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 02:27:33 +1000, Phil wrote: >> What do the USA and Russia do about minimising China's worries and hence military build-up depends upon their maturity and common sense (neither Country was noted for these attributes in the original cold war). << I realize this is getting *way* off topic but can't help noting that the US and USSR did manage to avoid nuclear war....... Al http://www.up-link.net/~modeleral -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: AandMBlevins@gateway.net Subject: Re: Bradford Chaucer's query re: Creamcoat I believe that they are designed for use on ceramics and other crafts. We have a chain of Ben Franklin craft stores in the upstate NY area but I imagine any craft store will carry them. I have used them on occasion, but never thinned them with Future, using water to thin them. You learn something every day if you don't watch out!. I'll give it a try as I find there is a large variety of colors to select from. An artist friend of mine suggests using artist's acrylics mixed with gesso. He mixed a grey for me that was exactly what I wanted. Al Blevins East Greenbush, NY (It's just across the Hudson River from Albany) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Alan Roots" Subject Russian Sub In reply to Craig's question, it has just been announced that Russia's President Putin has officially ask for Royal Navy assistance in helping to rescue the trapped submariners. This was broadcast on the BBC news service at 1800 hrs BST. I think it is safe to assume the Russians don't have the capability to affect a rescue at the depth of near 500 feet at which the sub is laying, or they now lack the expertise through lose of funding. There are 166 men trapped in that boat, what ever our beliefs our prays are needed now, may God be with them and the courageous men and women attempting this rescue. especially Tom Heron the pilot of LR5 the submersible that could be used to rescue the crew members. Our thoughts and prays be with them all. Regards Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "J.Pasquill" Subject: USCG plan list Thanks so much for that list of plans. Who can tell me which type of 1920s USCG craft on the plan list would have been used in anti rum running operations off the New England coast? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: drwells@hogpb.mt.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: HMS Minotaur of 1947? Fellow SMMLies, I recently obtained a copy of Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1947-1995, (let's hear it for Naval Institute's 60% off sale!!) and I found in the section on British cruisers some interesting references to a bunch of cruiser projects that never made it off the drawing boards. Some had simple line drawings, others did not. The one I found most interesting had no drawing: HMS Minotaur, a post WWII light cruiser with ten 6" guns in 5 twin turrets like those on HMS Tiger. Does anyone know where I might be able to find even a simple drawing of this ship? I've got a spare Airfix Belfast hull, (about the right size) and a couple of extra Tiger turrets...... David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Russian sub sinking Likely the biggest problem this trapped Oscar submarine crew is going to have is their government allowing other nations to help. BB Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 808-263-6087 buzz@aloha.net A historical interpretation company. Visit our web sites at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ and http://www.PacificHistory.net "He's supposed to be dead. This is vexing. I am terribly vexed." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Various... Hi All, To Brad: Ceramacoat paints are available in virtually any Craft store, such as Michaels. I have 3 stores within 5 minutes of my home that has them!!! The nearest hobby shop is 20 minutes one way!!! RE China Definitely the "one" to be wary of. To the Chinese General I say "Is Los Angeles worth 90% of your country destroyed in a couple of hours?" Nuclear warheads make quantity irrelevant in this case. However, we do not need to fall asleep where China is concerned and where the re-writers of history would like to take us. Pearl Harbor While there were numerous bungles and screw-ups, I think that the strongest argument against FDR knowing EXACTLY when and where (I think it is fair to assume FDR and friends knew an attack was coming) is that "allowing" the attack at Pearl to happen risked losing the war at the getgo!!!!! I don't think thay sat down and said that "if we keep the aircraft carriers at sea, we'll be able to come back and win" or "sure, we will be able to salvage the ships from the bottom of Pearl". The carriers were delayed from berthing at Pearl on the 6th by bad weather(Thank God!!) and a couple of more well-placed bomb hits, such as on the Arizona, would have made salvage irrelevant!! Also, as another list member said, a VICTORY at Pearl Harbor would have accomplished the same results as what did happen. One shouldn't need to constantly prove common sense. No one knowingly risks losing a war from the start!!!!! They couldn't predict where the bombs and torpedoes would hit!! Has anyone tried airbrushing the Ceramacoat paints after thinning with Future? Also, how do they brush. Their color range is cetainly wide enough for us. Happy Modeling, John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor Actually, the American forces at Pearl were absolutely on alert and were very successsful at beating back the expected Japanese assault -- from Imperial Navy submarines. While the air attack was possible, the submarine attack was probable, and Kimmel didn't have the forces to the guard against both. So he concentrated on the submarine defenses, which worked well. Also, can anyone provide a source for the Yamamoto "sleeping giant" qoute prior to the movie "Tora Tora Tora?" That movie seems to be the primary source! Burl Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 808-263-6087 buzz@aloha.net A historical interpretation company. Visit our web sites at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ and http://www.PacificHistory.net "He's supposed to be dead. This is vexing. I am terribly vexed." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: IPMS Judging Art wrote >> Thanks very much to Rusty White for his reply to my post about judging and the IPMS/USA Nationals. It was very helpful! Now if I can just buckle down and get something finished.... << Art -- I know your a Texan too. If you're going to the Austin show next weekend, look me up and we can see about getting you volunteered to judge. You can see what goes into judging and what you can learn to help your modeling by looking critically at the other disciplines. I've learned more from the armor guys and the figure painters than you can imagine. And don't wait until next nationals to start judging. Start judging locally and regionally. Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: Brtain's WW1 entry >> -- I'm sure that Britain would be hard pushed to admit that it became embroiled in WW1 to avoid the government being toppled and replaced with a different political party. Nor is the US likely to admit that it contributed significantly via the CIA to the rise in production and distribution of illegal drugs, in south-east Asia and Central and South America. << I had heard about the conspiracy theorie on Roosevelt, but this is a new one for me. AFAIK Britain's entry in WW1 was inevitable once Germany had invaded France as the late 19th century treaty system more or less forced them to enter the war. Also, the other political party involved (the Tories) was even more eager to wage war, so the result would be the same. The giving up of splendid isolation, which was probably the root cause for the entry of Britain in WW1 had been decided on in 1905 with the Entante Cordial (shipmodelers note the year 1905 and the not coincidental laying down of a certain warship). While one can argue a lot about the different diplomatic games Asquith played in 1914 a conspiracy is rather unlikely I think. Pieter Cornelissen Delft, The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Judging criteria (accuracy) >> I can agree with Art over the issue of criteria. In all of the regionals I have attended an now the recent nationals, I have yet to see any standardized judging sheet showing criteria used and how it was weighed over other criteria. Most of the time it seems that criteria weight is arbitrary, depending on the judge's personal approach. I think IPMS should have a standardized "gig" sheet for all categories, and when it's over, the modeler has it as a record on how he/she can improve. I think the criteria should include consideration for the size of the model. A 6'' model won't have as many flaws as a 26'' model yet there should be a ratio for allowable flaws on a model given its size. Let's say there was 2 flaws on the 6'' model, and 4 on a 36'' model. Total flaws would give the award to the smaller model, yet given the size of the models and the inherent odds of a larger ship, the 36'' model should be the winner with a ratio. This is a rough example, but I hope you understand. << All this sounds good on paper. It looks complicated and this is just "a rough example". Imagine doing that to over 1600 models! However, considering the way our current judging system is designed to work, it isn't practical. We had over 1600 models to judge in Dallas. Filling out criteria sheets for every model would be incredibly time consuming. It could literally take days and we just don't have the time. The convention registration ends on Fri. evening and judging begins Fri. evening until it's done. With the committee system firmly in place, we were there until 1:00 am. The system we use (the committee system) wasn't thought up overnight. The current system we use has been honed and refined for more than twenty years (and we're still refining it every year) and it works very well. While using a point system would be beneficial to the individual modeler, it is unworkable given the number of models we must judge in one evening. Just my opinion. >> Also is accuracy taken in account? The flaws I previously referred to were modeling techniques, but what about accuracy. It seems like many model judges can tell you the number of rivets on a P-51, but when it comes to ships, judges (in general) take the model for face value that it is accurate (i.e. did they use serpetine chain for the anchor chain or a wrong aircraft on the catapult?) Paint tones can't really be judged, since there will always be weathering and color compression, but physical depictions can. << BTW, we did catch the wrong A/C used on certain ships several times. We also caught the wrong paint scheme on the a/c as well on some carriers. The carrier paint scheme would put it one time frame while the a/c paint scheme put it in another. So give us some credit. Oboy. Wait while put on my asbestos red union suit. Accuracy is pretty far down on the list (here come the flames!)(NO they aren't: Shane). While there are lots of so called "experts" on P-51s, just remember a P-51 is only about 35' long and quite small. So there is no comparison to the size and complexity of a ship. I'm not a naval architect and I don't think any of my judges are. That's why accuracy where ships are concerned is secondary. For example, we don't judge a model on what the builder DIDN'T do, but what he DID do. If a USS Enterprise has a sponson the wrong shape and a little out of location from the real thing, he isn't penalized for it UNLESS another modeler built the same model and DID make the correction. We judge how well the modeler executes the basics on his model and the correction and give him "points" for correcting the mistake by the manufacturer of the kit. If the modeler that CORRECTED the sponson did a poor job on the basics, he MAY lose out to the guy who didn't make the correction but DID execute the basics well. I hope you see our dilemma as judges. That's why it's important to TELL THE JUDGES WHAT MODS. YOU MADE TO YOUR MODEL on you entry sheet. WE DO READ THEM. EVERY ONE OF THEM. We may not be Enterprise specialists, while you (as the builder of the model) did your research and made the corrections. >> This inherently implies that the judge has to know the content and the background of the subject modeled and the model(if it was a kit) to see if the modeler corrected any manufacturer's errors. << There's no way we can have that much knowledge with so many ships that have come and gone over the thousands of years (yes thousands) ships have been used by mankind. So we have to rely on you (the modeler) to help us out. There weren't that many types of Mustangs manufactured, so it's pretty easy to become an "expert" on that aircraft. How many experts are there in IPMS (or anywhere else) that are experts on Egyptian straw river rafts? Don't laugh. A friend of mine entered one some years back after exhaustive reattach on the little vessel. It was built from O'Cedar broom straws and yes he did provide documentation. I hope you understand what I mean. As I said, in short, they are BUT the execution of the basics MUST be as well done or all his work may go for naught. Making an "attempt" doesn't buy you a thing if you execute the basics poorly. Rusty White IPMS/USA Head ship judge http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Loren Perry Subject: Revell's 1/350 New Jersey I was the person who redesigned the old Otaki 1/350 WW2 USS Missouri into a modernized USS New Jersey for Revell (they were still located in Venice, California at the time.) Because Revell wanted to get the kit out by Christmas of 1993, I was working under a very tight deadline and was forced to leave some details out and/or simplify others. Nonetheless, the Revell kit, while not quite as refined as the Tamiya version, has some parts that are more accurate and with better detailing (like the UnRep Crane, among others.) My version of the New Jersey's aft helo pad was slightly mis-interpreted by the toolmakers - they shortened the two inclined ramps at the forward end and leveled the areas aft of them further forward than they should have. A modeler can correct this by scraping down the ramps with a sharp No. 11 blade until the ramps have a smooth transition all the way to the full-width dection of the pad (where the level part is supposed to begin.) For the full story of how this model was redesigned, see the September and November 1984 back issues of Scale Ship Modeler magazine. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: rweilach@mindspring.com Subject: Splinter shields Can someone tell me the best way to make 1/700 USN WWII splinter shields for 20 mm mounts? Is plastic or metal strips best? Any advice or pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Loren Perry Subject: A prayer for the Russian submarine sailors To all on this site - this would be a good time to offer prayers for the trapped crew of the sunken Russian submarine in the Barents Sea. These men have courageously served their country in a most hazardous profession that all of us here on this site can understand and respect. May God protect them and watch over them and their families in their hour of need. Loren Perry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Branko Subject: Fletchers I am looking for any information on the Fletcher class Destroyers I'm not sure which ship I'm going to build yet. I have the Tamiya kit. Does anyone know of any inaccuracies in this kit? Branko -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Nave Obit' I cannot work this blasted machine in respect of getting into the Times obit. section for Nave's obituary that appeared I believe in the summer of 1994 or 1995. Can anybody help? If not, then the American named Jones is going to win by default. NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "hugh1lottie2" Subject: Re: Edgar March book My tale of woe is this. Visiting a used book store a few miles from home [Steve Wiper aka "Good Humor Man", told me about] I turned up a book in good condition that happened to be March"s Destroyer book and a couple of minutes later a excellent book on Monitors appeared. I checked the price, $100 and $30 and decided to purchase another armload of books that held more interest for me. I relayed the information on to a friend that is really turned on by anything British. He in turn talked the shop owner into letting him have both books for $100. He is very, very happy and I am semi happy because I do get to borrow them. The moral of the story is that Steve does know a good thing when he sees it. Hugh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: rweilach@mindspring.com Subject: Shoho Can anyone tell me what colors to paint Shoho. Also recommend a paint, preferably available from PFH, or somewhere similar ? Thanks, Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: CaptainOD@aol.com Subject: Re: FSM Re FSM, like Bob Santos, writing for and getting published in FSM was a very worthwhile experience. They bought a group of articles from me, one which was published in the magazine on Carrier decks and republished in the book "Scale Modeling Detail". Not only did they again paid me again, they also gave me a free copy of the book. FSM paid me up front for the articles and while they didn't use all of them, they did use a photo of my 1/72 scale USS Monitor which is also a ship. That was in the pre-computer/digital camera days, and now that I have both, I plan on doing some more articles and hopefully they will be accepted. Bob O'Donovan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Art Herrick" Subject: Re: Co's Boat, USS Midway Re: Original Question to List - Vol 986, Message 6, from Christer Jalltoft My reply (Art Herrick) - Vol 990, Message 12 >> The gig in the picture you attached to your message is not the "Captains gig", but I believe a 40ft Personnel Boat, MK1, for transport of officer personnel (Re: THE BOAT OFFICERS OFFICER'S HANDBOOK, US Naval Institute Press, 1981 issue, page 99-100.) If it were the Captains personal gig there would be an arrow through MID on the bow, and there would be no boat number. This arrow marking goes back at least to the early part of the last century. << >> I can not make out the color of the boat's waterline in the the photo, but a boat for ships officer's use would have a blue waterline boottop and the Captains boat would have a red boottop. << Re: Midway's Gig (Maybe) - Vol 991, Message 30, 15 August, from Rick Heinbaugh In reply to Art Herrick's message - Vol 990, Message 12, 13 August, Re: Co's Boat, USS Midway >> Alright, this is war! (grin) << >> I say it COULD be the gig. True, no chrome arrow around the name (visible to me, anyway... but that shadow might be covering it...) << Rick ... We can easily see the markings MID 1 in the picture. If the arrow was there we could see it! The MID 1 bow markings look like polished brass to me. Even though the markings are in the shadows, look at how the other chrome fittings on the boat shine >> NavShipsTechManual 583, para 3.2.2.4, requires the gig to have either name or hull number in chrome letters, surrounded by that ubiquitous arrow. << Rick ... In regards to an Arrow identifying the ship captain's boat. You say "chrome arrow around the name"?? Did something change after my 1977 reference below? My Tech Manual reference in the Boat Officer's Hand book is Flags, Pennants & Customs, NWP-13, June 1977: "Boats assigned to the Commanding officer of ships are marked on the bow with the ship type (or name) and number in chrome letters and numerals with a chrome arrow running fore and aft through the markings. The gig's waterline is, by custom, painted red. Officers' boats [barges] are similarly marked except the arrow is omitted, the letters must be brass (bright), and custom dictates the use of a blue waterline." Rick ... what do you mean by "arrow around the name"?? Did something change after the 1977 Tech Manual that I am using for reference. In any picture of a captains gig that I can remember seeing, the arrow is fore and aft through the three letter initials for the captains vessel. The arrow is not separate from the three letters, the arrow and the letters are cut from one piece of brass and then chrome plated. (The arrows tail is the same stroke width as the letters.) Because the arrow is for identification, if you can read the letters you can see the arrow. My memory says that a boat number is never used on the Captain's Gig ... The Captain's Gig, IS THE Captain's Gig !! >> These are definitely chrome, right? And look at that waterline. Could somebody have been trying to be clever with the arrowhead at the bow? << Rick ... I think we are seeing brass (bright or polished) letters, MID 1, in Chris Jalltoft's picture. >> I agree - we can't see whether the waterline is blue or red; that should be a giveaway. << Rick ... Thanks for your offer of a 1:96 two-view drawing of a 30ft motor launch from BOATS OF THE UNITED STATES NAVY, but I already own a copy of this this book (mine is 1960). Art Herrick Westmoreland NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: JOE DAMATO Subject: Pearl Harbor Phoney I've been watching the Pearl thread and was surprised that Bob Oconner didn't tell the real story. Pearl Harbor never happened, it was fabricated using unreleased wood model kits on the same sound stage in Arizona that the Moon Landing was. Ask any Republican or Law Enforcement Offical. They wanted to use the same models for the new movie, but Polar Lights wouldn't reissue them. On a simular vain of babble, does anyone have drawings for the Exxon Valdeze (sp) or know where I can get them. I just finished the San Clamente Tanker patterns and though the Exxon would be cool to do also. Let me know. Also, before my pizza gets cold, the SMML has really grown into something special. I am always amazed at the depth of thought (not mine of course)and the range of subject matter. The China thread call back my days at UC Berkley when I got into a fight with a professor about the same subject. Keep up the great work. We might just learn something!!! Best, Joe Damato -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "RON" Subject: Re: Soviet sub I humbly suggest that all SMML'S take a moment and offer a prayer for the safety of the crew of the Oscar These words come to mind. "Eternal Father strong to save-- "Oh hear us when we pray to thee for those in peril on the sea." Ron Schmitt Puyallup WA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Typhoon >> I recently bought a Dragon Typhoon class 1/350. Can anyone suggest pictures (preferably) in colour of Russian Typhoon class naval bases with subs and of the subs themselves? Also, has anyone else made this kit? What do people think of it? << The stern is completely fictitous. I have sent a number of people the corrected stern drawings. The big central beavertail diving plane doesn't exist on the real thing. Instead, there are two smaller stern planes abaft the propellers, and the propellers are shrouded. A few other items also need attention. Overall grade B- for the kit As for links, try: http://www.bellona.no/data/dump/0/02/86/2.html#88a http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/4792/index.html http://users.erols.com/yogiinc/submarines.html with a great shot of a Typhoon tied up (scroll down past the US Subs). Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Paints >> Are these artists colors or craft paints or what?? where are they available?? Regards, Bradford Chaucer << If you happen to live, in say, Wallingford, Connecticut, you would drive through Waterbury up Route 8 north to Exit 36, get off, make the first left and drive about 1/4 mile to Jay Mar Crafts. At least they had these paints a year ago or so.... And of course you would need to live in Wallingford, CT........Just in case you did...... Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: Don Myers Subject: Navy Hull Numbers Looking over photocopies of a US Navy stores ship, the size and location (high or low relative to the anchor) of the ship number and type has changed. Unfortunately, some of the pics lack the photo shoot date and span from Korea (~ 1952) through 1969). As I have been trying to determine the actual time various alterations were made, perhaps someone knows when the Navy made this change, ie. fleet wide from what date to what date. Don -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Acrylic artists paint Where to find Creamcoat/Ceramcoat (don't really know how it's spelled) and other brands are acrylic artist paints. Acrylic artists paints are available at major craft stores like Michaels, MJDesigns (if they're still around)and Hobby Lobby. They usually occupy large racks in the artists' supply department. Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: Marc Flake Subject: Historical Fiction This thread came up on another list, so I thought I'd relate what I found today. I did a search at the library of WWI fiction. Came up with 87 entries. I found a couple of things for ship lovers. One is "A Sailor of Austria" by John Biggins. About a sub commander for the Austor-Hungarian Empire during WWI. The other is a series of books by Alan Evans. British naval officer in WWI. I'm trying to decise which to begin first. Which brings to mind other good steel navy fiction, like Alastair MacLean's "HMS Ulysees." I also vaguely remember a book about a 15-in gun monitor fighting off an Italian fleet to save a convoy bound for Malta. Anybody have any other suggestions? Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Russian sub & New Jersey Hi Guys I have couple things to write about. In the local nightly news a retired Russian Navy Officer who now lives in the states and teaches at a local university ... Rutgers or Burlington County College told of another submarine disaster in the 1950s that he was in. A sub sank in 100ft and they're were 53 men on it and they panicked after a fire and battery explosion forced the sub to the bottom. One officer took control and used a pistol to restore order. Out of the 53, 17 successfully escaped to the surface. About the New Jersey's hull I believe the hull has a black booting that might be 6 to 8 ft high above the red hull anti fouling. My books such as the Iowa Class by Robert stern has a couple of photos that does show it. As well a 1982 cruise book from the Jersey showing her leaving dry dock in Long Beach for the final stages of her reactivation back then. I got the cruise book from a high school buddy who was assigned to her. I remember him telling me some modeling tips for accuracy. I wish I had written them down because I don't remember it all. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Variations in MS 32/33 camouflage question >> I was looking at http://www.shipcamouflage.com/ and was wondering about the variations in MS 32 and 33 camouflage patterns. For example MISSOURI was MS 32/22d. PRINCETON and COWPENS was MS 33/7a. Were these standard patterns? Would PRINCETON and COWPENS be painted exactly the same? << They would be pretty much the same pattern (Cowpens and Princeton that is) MS 32/xx is the medium color system and uses the colors Ocean Gray, Light Gray, Dull Black (Or Navy Blue). The "d" designation stands for "destroyer". So, MS32/22d means: Medium Color scheme using pattern #22 designed for destroyers. As for MS 33/7a, It means: Light color scheme Pale Gray, Haze Gray, and Dull Black (or Navy Blue) Pattern #7 designed for Aircraft Carriers. Now, you can have a MS 32/22d and MS 33/22d scheme with only difference being the colors used on exactly the same pattern number. John Sheridan www.shipcamouflage.com I am not Unit# 631 of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) If there were a Lumber Cartel, the last place on earth I would look for it would be: http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: James Corley Subject: Re: IPMS judging criteria >> I can agree with Art over the issue of criteria. In all of the regionals I have attended an now the recent nationals, I have yet to see any standardized judging sheet showing criteria used and how it was weighed over other criteria. Most of the time it seems that criteria weight is arbitrary, depending on the judge's personal approach. << That may be true at the local/regional level, but Rusty rides us pretty hard over judging matters and criteria at the Nats. This year there was a model entered that had placed first in it's category, and at least myself and one other national judge had seen it at the lower levels of competition twice. To make a long story short, it was noticed that it has items missing, forcing a reevaluation of things. In the end, it was still a better model than #2. If Rusty wants to disclose more, I will defer to him and hope I haven't divulged too much here. >> IPMS should have a standardized "gig" sheet for all categories, and when it's over, the modeler has it as a record on how he/she can improve. << But since the criteria are different from class to class, that means many different sheets. If you think it takes long now to compile and present the awards, just wait until another step gets added. Ships have different points to judge than tanks ... how many pieces of armor have masts that need to align?! >> I think the criteria should include consideration for the size of the model. [snip] This is a rough example, but I hope you understand. << Not practical, from my experience. I have yet to judge a perfect model, and likely never will. Having spent time aboard ships, even if you could somehow shrink a full-sized working ship it would fall short in some area. There is a general tendency to be "wowed" by the size of large displays. Go to my page with the photos of the "Best Diorama" and see the evidence of what this can do. It is also illustrative of the differences in class rules. The NJ could have been heavily dinged for what I photographed as a ship model, but a diorama has the main emphasis on storytelling not basic construction. http://nautilusmodels.com/ipms2000/cvn-bb-1.jpg the overall view of the diorama http://nautilusmodels.com/ipms2000/cvn-bb-5.jpg the seam on the bow of the NJ >> Also is accuracy taken in account? The flaws I previously referred to were modeling techniques, but what about accuracy. It seems like many model judges can tell you the number of rivets on a P-51, but when it comes to ships, judges(in general) take the model for face value that it is accurate(i.e. did they use serpetine chain for the anchor chain or a wrong aircraft on the catapult?) << Accuracy is not specifically addressed by the "latest" Judges Handbook I have (1995), but these items are usually covered under the detailing and painting of the models. Most of the judges I know will defer to another with more experience in a certain area (not all, but most) ... and the handbook does say don't judge a category you don't know much about. STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW! >> Paint tones can't really be judged, since there will always be weathering and color compression, but physical depictions can. This inherently implies that the judge has to know the content and the background of the subject modeled and the model(if it was a kit) to see if the modeler corrected any manufacturer's errors. I think the modelers should be given a higher standing if they made an attempt to accurize a model, since it shows that the modeler is striving for a more accurate depiction of the subject......... Whew!! << This is judging what was not done to the model. Happens frequently in the aircraft categories due to the high number of resin update sets out there. The planes that are "corrected" will usually fare better than those with out-of-the-box marked on the sheet. I dislike the idea of guessing what a model builder has done or not done to a kit. One might leave off parts one feels are inferior and distract from an otherwise good kit ( i.e., Heller plastic railings) but should we knock the entry because the modeler did NOT do something. I don't think so. The next thing you know, there will be an expert on pre WW2 destroyers gigging a USS Ward kit because he did not correct the guns to the real look, or something similar like building the Tamiya Enterprise OOTB and being marked off for adding the #3 BPMDS (although it has been there since 1995). This general topic is covered in the aircraft section on weathering ... basically the weathering can only be used to compare two aircraft that have been weathered, and then the "more realistic" model wins - this is quite subjective, not like leaving a seam or ejector pin marks. JZ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Last four Kuwaiti missile craft begin journey home http://www.seawaves.com/Articles/Africa-Mideast/00081601.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: Roosevelt and the Navy John Rule wrote: >> Indeed, and you are as welcome to you opinion as anyone else is welcome theirs. But your comment that "Roosevelt loved the USN, so I seriously don't think that he would have let the attack happen, had he known," is a as much opinion, and not a fact based statement. << Actually Steve is absolutely right about this and his opinion can be supported by no less than General George C. Marshall. In a planning conference regarding allocation of funding to the various projects and service branchs, Marshall at one point chided the President for his habit of referring to the Army as "them", and to the Navy as "us". Certainly seems to indicate a fondness for the navy, at least Marshall thought so. Sorry, I cannot remember where I found that anecdote, but I thought it amusing enough to retain it in my memory. Dan Jones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 36) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: PCU Churchill tests modified gun at sea http://www.seawaves.com/Articles/USN/august2000/00081610.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 37) From: "Bruce Buchner" Subject: Russian Sub Sinking The news of the the Russian sub sinking made my hair stand on end since I had stayed up till 2 am the night before to finish Peter Maas' The Terrible Hours spellbinding book on the Squalus sinking and rescue. It has just been released in paperback and I heartily recommend it. It gives some insight to what those trpped Russian sailors are going through. Not to be ghoulish but on the news we are seeing more coverage in a few days of Russian subs than we have seen over the past ten years. The answer to one of our perennial questions may be revealed. I saw one film clip that showed and underwater shot of the top of the Kursks sail. Has anyone seen any photos or film clips that show the color below the waterline on a Russian sub? Bruce Buchner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 38) From: Subject: IPMS Regional in Phoenix IPMS Regional is this weekend (Aug 18-19) at the Holiday Inn in Mesa. Any other SMMLies plan on going? I finished my 1/350 Perry (totally redone Unrep, front bulkhead and so forth) and will have it out for the first time. This is the first time I used an ALPS printer to make some decals (ship's crest and ship's flag). It worked great. Kevin Wenker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 39) From: "bearkat_ind" Subject: Russian Sub Down Having worked on US nuclear subs some years ago, it is doubtful if the following news media disclosures are in fact, reality: 1) the submarine was not armed with nuclear warheads, all subs that go to sea are prepared for war! Lets get real. 2) the two nuclear reactors have been shutdown, if that is in fact true, the crew is dead as the nuclear reactor also provides environmental controls: air, temp etc. If the reactors are down, then they had twenty four to forty eight hours to live on battery reserve. The press would like us to believe that our rescue vehicles maybe able to help salvage the crew from the submarine. This is contingent upon the following: the pitch and attitude of the sunken ship, if the list is too far to port or starbord then all rescue attempts are futile. A rescue requires the vessal to be almost perfectly upright to obtain an airtight seal to break the hatch. A second point to consider is the adaptability of the US rescue bells and submersables in attempting to collar the excape hatch. Given the Russians do not follow any NATO standard, the likelihood our vessals could be of help is quite doubtful. This independence has been true for all their ordnance and equipment or ships. It is also curious to note that the only rescue vehicle for an American sub is also unique, to an American rescue vessal, am quite sure the Russians share the same philosophy. The concept here to to remove any recovery by a potential enemy of the design and operation of the downed vessal. WW II thinking is still alive and well. Given the half life of nuclear materials, the down ship must be raised to avoid a melt down and ultimately Atlantic Ocean and North Sea contamination. 500 feet is very workable for ship recovery. We have recovered the USS Thresher as you recall at a much greater depth. The article states that the Russian sub apparently ran into something, possibly another submarine and flooded the bow. If that is in fact true and the collision was with another submarine, it obviously was not a NATO ship otherwise the free world nations would be advancing on that area to recover their own ship. If another submarine was involved, then odds would make it another Russian sub, whale or uncharted deep sea anomoly. This only emphasizes one point that we cannot loose track of, the world is still a very dangerous place and the leaders elected to hold political office must be of the highest moral, ethical and psychologicall stable charector. Just an engineer with a couple points to make Jack -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 40) From: "bearkat_ind" Subject: Submarines Shane: I forgot to mention that while working for electric boat division of General Dynamics in Ct, it was common practice for some of us to build operating models, engineers and spare time and all that stuff. So we built an operating sub, making the hull from aluminum castings and fiberglass to get the hull shape and integrity, we also water proofed the internals, had ballast tanks etc. No we could not fire torpedoes but that was in the works I think. We used a one horsepower DC motor and two motorcycle batteries for power. Used a pellet rifle CO2 cannister for the ballast tank and for the depth regulating controls. The ship was about 12 feet long and we put it in trials in a submersable tank at work. That brought everyone out to take a look as the nuclear sub we were building was and still is top secret. All was fine, we went into the tank with scuba gear, and r/c kit in a submersable camera rig, and were able to make a few maneovers in the tub so to speak. We took the ship down to 30 feet without any problems, or one atmosphere. Since we were in close proximity to the sub, the electronics etc all performed as they should. Being quite optomistic, we then took the sub for field trials in the ocean. What we had not bargained on was the dileterious effects of salt water upon epoxy laminates used to make the hull. After only 30 minutes at sea, the hull delaminated at the water tight connections internal to the sub. I bring this forward only to advise the membership of the problems with salt water and operating at sea model ship hulls. The delamination was caught before any real damage had effected either the stainless steel ballast tanks or electrical drive components. Jack -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 41) From: "Robert Fish" Subject: USS Vestal Question,,, {who}< in the know,? and I want proof from non cheese eater's > Makes, the best 1\96 scale ship USS Vestal? Plezze e-mail back at my Pvt. e-mail, and thanks too all that answered, the call for information about USS Langley AV-3 I'm still recv;ing reports from mates from around the world, again thank you all Bruce Fish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 42) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: A Sad Record of Submarine Disasters http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/081600sub-history.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 43) From: "Robert Fish" Subject: USS Pecos AO-6 Anyone not having an interest in pre WWll oilers, need not reply, I'm asking those who know about USS Pecos AO-6 builded some-where around the 1920's as a Fleet Oilier the Pecos was assigned FECINPACF 1940 -1942 before that unknown, she went down late Feb.1942 after helping langley crew after main attack on Langley, 27. Feb. 1942, the Pecos played a small part, in the life of the Carrier Langley before and after the sinking both ships, I would like any Information, before the Pecos was lost. thank you PS! plezze e-mail at image2@thegrid.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: drwells@hogpb.mt.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: Building a modern USS NJ? Fellow SMMLies, Joe and I have put my first batch of BB-62 pictures on the web at http://www.bb62museum.org/images/DRWells/aug9index.html David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Felix Bustelo" Subject: IMM - Seeking Contributions As webmaster of International Maritime Modeling, I am seeking contributions from fellow ship modelers for posting on my website. I am looking for photos of your models for the Gallery, in-box or build-up reviews of classic or box scale kits, contruction/build articles, historical articles, book reviews, photoetch/resin upgrade reviews. I would like to offer modelers the views and perspectives of a variety of other modelers. I don't wish to have IMM to become "the world of ship modeling according to Felix". If you share my love for the Revell, Airfix, Heller, Nichimo, Aurora and other classic kits and new resin and plastic kits in non-standard scales (1/400, 1/500, 1/600) and liners, merchant ships and sail ships in any scale, please contribute. Please bear in mind that I cannot pay, as this is a free site. You can contact me at imm_web_master@yahoo.com if you wish to contribute. Thanks, Felix Bustelo Webmaster International Maritime Modeling http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: New from Model Ship Journal In the September issue of Model Ship Journal, expect to see three sets of official plans & Perfect Storm rescue ship coverage with first hand info regarding the Air National Guard helo ditching directly from the survivors. MSJ will also feature Foss Cup tug R/C regatta photos, reviews of the ICM battleship SMS Konig & aftermarket PE parts/decals. Loren Perry shows how to transform Revell's USS Arizona into a masterpiece using PE parts and skillful modeling techniques. Learn how to apply fiberglass to a wood hull Visit the USS David R. Ray (DD-971) Compare long and short hulled WWII DEs U.S. Naval ships at Seattle's Seafair 2000 underway The ship models by Donald L. Atkins & Assoc., 1940s vintage photography. Model Ship Journal is available by subscription for $30.00/yr ($45.00 foreign) from: Photomarine Archives P.O. Box 28516 Bellingham, WA 98228-0516 www.modelshipjournal.com (877) 371-0290 toll free or (360) 371-0290 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume