Subject: SMML VOL 1004 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 00:10:11 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Ultracast Tribal kits 2: Russian Navy 3: Re: Seeadler 4: IPMS UK 5: Re: Seeadler 6: The Olympics in Sydney 7: UK IPMS Nationals and ugly ship models 8: Re: A petrified piece of poodle s*** - A kit review 9: Re: L26 sub 10: Seeadler 11: Re: UK nats 12: Re: Kursk sinking and experimental torpedos 13: USS Drayton DD-366 & USS Oswald models 14: Re: Kursk 15: Holland Sub 1/72 by Commander Models 16: Graf Zeppelin Air Wing Purchase Group Update 17: Re: Kursk 18: Re: Working Torpedos 19: Re: HMS Illustrious 20: Lindberg Stinkers 21: Re: Uglies 22: Re: Submarine L26 23: Re: Titanic & Olympic 24: Riverine - Brown Water 25: King George V deck colour 1944 26: Re: Titanic sisterships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: pepe@ns.sympatico.ca Subject: Ultracast Tribal kits Anyone have experience building the Ultracast 1/700 kits of the Tribal Class destroyers, Haida and Huron? I'm getting ready to build Huron and any hints,tricks etc about assembly, paint whatever would be appreceiated. TIA rolie in Nova Scotia,home of the Bluenose and Sackville -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: URUDOFSKY@aol.com Subject: Russian Navy www.bellona.no has an interesting and extensive run-down on the present state of the Russian Navy. Click on Russia and then on the Russian Navy. Ulrich Rudofsky -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: Seeadler To: Tony Ireland Seeadler did in fact leave Germany after the Brit blockade was in force, and was boarded by a search party from a British cruiser. They faked being a Norwegian cargo vessel [forged clearance papers] with a deck load of lumber. The final kicker that got them past the search party was the presence of the "Captain's wife", a slightly built seaman in drag. I do own the book by Lowell Thomas, and I think they sank 14 Allied ships. By the way, the only weapon they had other than small arms, was an antique [in those days!] muzzleloading cannon. They don't make sea dogs like that anymore. hth Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: IPMS UK >> I will be there!! All SMMLies beware, especially that John Sheridan if he takes his SALEM! Arrgh.... << Sorry, but that SALEM model has already been sold. However, I am working on another one for a certain ship model magazine that will be even better than the one displayed at the SMML convention..... John Sheridan www.shipcamouflage.com I am not Unit# 631 of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) If there were a Lumber Cartel, the last place on earth I would look for it would be: http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Steve Sobieralski" Subject: Re: Seeadler Its been many years since I've seen the Revell Seeadler kit, but I believe that it is based on their kit of the Eagle, the Coast Guard training bark. As was (is) standard practice many of the Revell sailing ships have done double duty: the Bounty, with a change of rig became the Beagle, the Flying Cloud was also the Staghound, the Cutty Sark the Thermopylae, The Constitution the United States and (as has been discussed here before) the Kearsarge became the Alabama. Although the Eagle was German built I doubt that it was a sister ship of the Seeadler, and therefore the kit probably bears, at best, no more than a resemblance to the actual ship. Steve Sobieralski -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: TechnoInfidel@webtv.net (John Collins) Subject: The Olympics in Sydney Shane et al: Quite off topic, so I'll keep it short (for once). I noted Shanes' quip about Sydneysiders bolting out of town for the Olympics. Too bad, really. The 1996 Olympics were a magical time in Atlanta. Everyone was excited, friendly and happy to have the world visiting us. Even the crime rate dropped. I wouldn't trade it for anything -- except perhaps a trip to the Sydney Olympics. Enjoy it: It's a once in a lifetime event. John Collins Atlanta, GA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: UK IPMS Nationals and ugly ship models I'll be going to THE modelling event of the year as well. As for ugly ship models, I've only finished two in the last years - the ugliest one myst surely be the RN M-class submarine, but I have a stronger candidate ion the closet - the RN K-class sub. It's so ugly it's "cool"... What colours were these painted? The box top of the Sea Wolf kit shows a completed model in all over light grey - no boot topping, so red anti fouling paint and only a black "name". Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: A petrified piece of poodle s*** - A kit review >> Please Ned, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel! << I had also seen the kit in question and was amazed that someone could let something like that out onto the market. It is probably the worst kit ever manufactured. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: L26 sub There are several photos, plus a set of John Lambert's typically terrible drawings ( :-} ) of the L series subs in M.P. Cocker's book Observer's Directory of Royal Naval Submarines 1901-1982. Like most useful references, it is long out of print (copyright 1982), but you might be able to find a copy through interlibrary loan. The original publisher was Frederick Warne, London. IMHO, this is a useful book for any modeler interested in RN subs. While primarily a picture book, it does contain a large number of John's drawings of most of the classes. These typically comprise inboard and outboard plans and profiles, while a few also have one or more cross-sections. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: CaptainOD@aol.com Subject: Seeadler TimeLife books on the ships in I believe the Windjammers has a section on the Seeadler. Also her remains are still visible and the local village has her bell and winch and several other metal parts. Bob O'Donovan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: thorstenwahl@t-online.de (Wahl, Thorsten L.) Subject: Re: UK nats Will be there as well - find me either at the Swiss IPMS stand (sober) or the Aerobatic Display Teams SIG (in that other condition). ;-) Might also be found at WEM´s stand - to get that Trenchant (y´hear, Caroline?) and Airstrike 700 stuff. BTW, is somebody going to bring that darn camera again so we can get the mugs of those people we missed last year? How about a get together? Best Thorsten, IPMS (UK) x1602 ´At least we don´t name our ships for our mothers-in-law.´ USS Reuben James to HMS Battleaxe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: BECJPARKER@aol.com Subject: Re: Kursk sinking and experimental torpedos There was a short blurb in Proceedings a month or so ago about a Russian rocket powered torpedo. Has a speed of over 300 knots. I have heard that, that was the first generation one they built and they are now building one with more range and a higher speed. That maybe the torpedo you are talking about, it would seem like the best bet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Karepac@webtv.net Subject: USS Drayton DD-366 & USS Oswald models My search is to find model(s) of the WWII destroyer"USS DRAYTON"DD-366 and the USS OSWALD, a destroyer escort. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: thorstenwahl@t-online.de (Wahl, Thorsten L.) Subject: Re: Kursk Craig Bennett wrote: >> (Snip) ... the Kursk was sunk by new advanced experimental torpedo ... << Haven´t seen that report but saw a feature on TV today speculating -according to ´unnamed and unattributable UK MoD sources´ - that the Russians were live-testing liquid-fuel torpedoes (as opposed to more expensive regular - but less volatile - solid-fueled ones). This would tie in w/ reports from Russia about the attorney-general investigating two civilians (Azeris?), that were aboard as tech-reps for the manufacturer. Just my 0.02 - I guess we´ll have to wait for the boat to be salvaged sometime next year - if at all. Best Thorsten, IPMS (UK) x1602 `At least we don´t name our ships for our mothers-in-law.´ USS Reuben James to HMS Battleaxe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Zeljko Hanich Subject: Holland Sub 1/72 by Commander Models Hi Guys, I am looking for US Navy Holland Sub in 1/72 scale produced by Commander Models. So far I have found it at Pacificfront Hobbies, but after initial reply from them I am not able to get any reply to my messages regarding placing my order (I have sent three messages in ten days, with no result). Does any of you have the same problem with Pacificfront Hobbies ? Suggestions ? So, if I need to look somewhere else to find and order Holland Sub, where should I start. Some URLs of good service, fair price on-line shops would help a lot. Regarding Holland Sub 1/72 scale, does any of you have some good (or bad) experience with that particular kit. Is it worth $65? Your opinions will be appreciated. Please, try to reply both to this group and my address. Thank you! Many thanks for help and effort. Zeljko, Croatia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Peter K. H. Mispelkamp" Subject: Graf Zeppelin Air Wing Purchase Group Update Well, it was a long haul, but we have just surpassed the 50% mark of fully confirmed orders. If you are thinking of building a Revell Graf Zeppelin with her authenic "planned" air wing now is the time to join us. Confirmed orders are: Aircraft 109T 87C 167 Bags (13) (13) (12) While I do have some "unconfirmed" orders, it sems prudent to see if any other SMMLers are willing to join in this venture. Initial cost is estimated @ $5.00 per bag. We should be recieving three a/c per bag, with the possible exception of the 109T which may have up to five planes per bag. Any money that is left over from the order will be applied against the mailing costs associated with getting your "shares" out to you. Please contact me off list if you are interesested, or have any other questions. Remember, I can not submit any order to WEM until I have confirmed orders that meet or exceed their 20 bag minimum per aircraft type. If you have questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me. Any money that is left over from the order will be applied against the mailing costs associated with getting your "shares" out to you. My email address is: mispelkamp.peter@videotron.ca Hope to be hearing from you soon. Happy modeling! Peter K. H. Mispelkamp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Kursk >> I was talking to a guy at work and on Cspan at late night he told me that they put on a Russian news report and in the translation said that the Kursk was sunk by new advanced experimental torpedo and said it was learned thru a high ranking official who's name wasn't used. Has any one else seen this report? << Yep, and here it is: Gas-powered tubes on Russian sub called risky By Rowan Scarborough THE WASHINGTON TIMES The doomed submarine Kursk was fitted with new gas-powered torpedo tubes in 1998, a launching system that is potentially riskier than the air-pressure method it replaced, according a Russian military daily. The Red Star, a Russian newspaper that chronicles the military, also quoted seamen complaining that cost-cutting measures in the new system had made the torpedoes difficult to store and dangerous to handle. Speculation on what disabled the attack submarine has centered on two explosions in the ship's forward torpedo compartment. No exact cause of the blasts is known. However, the Red Star called attention to the new torpedo launchers that the Kursk received during repairs at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinskn, near Murmansk. "The sailors believed that the new torpedoes were difficult to store and dangerous to handle as the propulsion of the new torpedoes did not use the expensive batteries containing silver but cheap liquid fuel," the Red Star said. "The torpedoes were launched with the help of a trigger that produces gas, shooting the torpedo out instead of high-pressure air on the old torpedoes." Such speculation about the cause of the disaster came as Russia began planning for the daunting task of trying to lift the 14,000-ton Kursk from 350 feet below the surface of the Barents Sea. Experts estimated the cost at $100 million and Russia has asked for international aid. A.D. Baker II, a naval expert, said gas-launched tubes can be riskier than air-pressure launches. He said a fuel leak during launch or the escape of gas into the torpedo room could ignite an explosion. "This is a new one for the Russians," he said. "I've never heard of anyone else using a gas generator. In order to have gas, you need combustion. A gas bubble forces out the torpedo." But opinions on the cause of the explosion still are pure speculation, he said. "This may not have been the cause at all," Mr. Baker said. "All we know is there is a huge amount of damage to the area of the submarine for the storage and use of torpedoes. It could turn out it has nothing to do with a torpedo launch." Mr. Baker, editor of "Combat Fleets of the World," said that for decades the Russians have developed a hodgepodge of torpedoes. "They use so many types of torpedoes," he said. "That's their Achilles' heel, rather than the U.S. which has one torpedo that does everything." The U.S. Navy, he said, uses a method whereby the torpedo "swims" from a tube powered by a liquid-fuel motor. "Liquid fuel per se is not dangerous," he said. "It's what the liquid fuel is and how you handle it and how well the people are trained." Oscar II-class attack subs like the Kursk use 24-inch-diameter torpedoes designed to destroy surface ships. All are liquid fueled and carry up to a 1,000-pound warhead. The U.S. Navy has begun an acoustics analysis of sounds picked up by a sonar-towing Tagos surveillance ship that monitored the Russian navy's major weekend exercise Aug. 11 to 13. Navy sources said the service has made some initial conclusions. The Kursk suffered two explosions at around 7:30 a.m. on Aug. 12 in the forward part of the ship. The first was relatively small; the second occurred about two minutes later, unleashing the destructive power of 2 tons of TNT. Navy sonar picked up sounds consistent with the explosions and flooding, but heard nothing that would indicate the Kursk collided with another vessel or object. Some Russian officials still insist the crew was the victim of a wayward NATO ship. "We listened to everything," said one Navy source. The submarine experienced flooding in multiple compartments from the nose to midship, killing some crewmen. The blast also damaged compartments in the ship's aft section. Sailors in those compartments may have lived a day or two before sea water engulfed those sections. The Russians say they detected tapping from inside the hull for three days after the sinking. After Russian rescuers repeatedly failed, Norwegian divers were able to open an escape hatch on Monday. They reported the entire ship was flooded. U.S. Navy subs heard no tapping, but a computerized analysis of Tagos sonar could reveal such sounds. A Navy officer said the Pentagon may choose not to publicly release what it finds out. "We don't want the Russians to know our capabilities," he said. Russia's Tass news service quoted Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanovas as saying it will take weeks just to draw up plans to raise the vessel. "Not a single country on its own can handle such an operation," he said. Completely flooded and with its ballast tanks full, the ship weighs more than 19,000 tons. But naval experts said it could be lightened by pumping out some water and affixing it to huge flotation devices. "It will be surprising if they do not salvage it. Three hundred fifty feet of water is not that deep," Richard Sharp, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, told the Associated Press. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Working Torpedos >> has anyone any experience of making torpedoes to 1/24 scale, i.e.about 1 inch dia and 12 ins long. I'm not looking for long range,say from about 20ft out to the pool-side. No explosive warheads, and I do want to get it back. << Go over to the SubCommittee Main message board and ask. Several of the SC members have R/C subs that shoot torpedos. One guy actually built a cargo ship "target" (any surface ship will do...heh,heh) that sinks when it is hit by a model torpedo. The largest scale R/C sub I've seen with working torpedos is Gene Berger's monster Fleet Submarine at 1:32 (about 10 feet long). The SC is at: http://www.subcommittee.com/ Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: JOHNHWER@cs.com Subject: Re: HMS Illustrious >> I've just acquired the Heller kit of HMS Illustrious (WW2 not modern)and wondered if anybody could advise me what period in the ship's history the kit best represents, and what might be the most useful sources for camouflage info, particularly pattern and colors.<< Hello Stephen, Many years ago I built the 1/400 Heller HMS Illustrious in her 1944 rig while operating with USS Saratoga in the Indian Ocean. As I remember, the hull appeared to be fairly accurate for this period. I did cut it down to make a waterline model and added various additional details such as safety netting, additional crane details and a forward elevator in the down position. The bridge, however, was very simplified and did not appear to be accurate for any particular time frame. Therefore I spent quite a bit of effort in adding detail to the bridge such as new exterior walkways, bridge windows, 20 mm galleries, etc. - all of which greatly enhanced the model. For the camouflage scheme and other details, I relied heavily on several reference books which included Warship Profile No. 10, Warship Journal No. 13, British Carrier Aviation by N. Friedman and Camera At Sea 1939-1945 by Conway Press. A vague but nice color painting of her at this time (with Saratoga in the background) also appears as the front cover of the book Aircraft Carriers by R. Chesneau. I'm sure there are many other references out there that can also be found for this and other time periods. I was also able to populate her with metal cast Avengers and Corsairs as carried in 1944 in near 1/400 scale as purchased from HR Products. She apparently also carried Barracudas at this time but I was unable to find these in this scale. All in all she turned out very nicely. However, I am still waiting for someone to market a set of photoetch for British carriers which includes such items as radio masts, type 285 radar ("yagi" aerials) and other details to finally finish her off. Does anyone know if such a set is now available in 1/400? Hope this helps. Happy Modeling! John Werler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Lindberg Stinkers Derek noted the other day - >> Lindberg's small Cleveland cl kit may rate as one of the biggest stinkers of all time. I bought the Biloxi issue off eBay last December thinking it was the larger 1:600 kit. Wrong...this one scales out around 1:1000 scale, and is just awful. << Basic rule of thumb for any Lindberg ship kit was, apparently, the smaller they got, the worse they got. At least a few of the larger scale (1/125 and greater) beasts were unique enough -- and had some potential -- for anyone wanting a real challenge. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Chuck Messer Subject: Re: Uglies There is no phrase in any language that says "Beautiful as an ironclad". Let's face it, ironclads of the American Civil War were so ugly they didn't even look like ships! They were like scorpions -- Ugly and Menacing. Some were downright bizarre looking. U-G-L-Y, you ain't got no alibi! You ugly! You ugly! Yo' mama says you ugly! Of course, I'm a civil war ironclad fan. :^) Chuck Messer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Re: Submarine L26 Another photo of an L class is in Edward Young's book "One Of Our Submarines". It depicts the L.23 in diving mode and is unusually sharp. She was in use as a training ship at the time. The book also goes into the differences between L class and others (only 3 ballast tanks IIRC). Apparently her idiosyncrasies made her a handful. John Sutherland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: dlfowler@apple.com Subject: Re: Titanic & Olympic Hello, If you want the most minute details on the differences between the Olympic, Titanic, and Britannic, as well as all other detailing tips and a list of suppliers of etched brass, resin, and other conversion products, go to: http://titanic-model.com/ This site has all the information a true Titaniholic would ever need. Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Riverine - Brown Water The discussion of landing craft brought to mind my long-time interest in riverine, coastal/littoral and "brown water navy" topics. In part, this stems from my affinity with PTs, and part from having hired an ex-riverine coxswain (who went into combat armed with a sawed off shotgun and hand grenades - close quarters for a Navy man with water under his hull! I'm interested in the availability (from someone on the list) of Jim Mesko's out-of-print book on Riverine/Brown Water navy stuff. I'm also interested in other research materials (preferably in print or available from a list-member) as well as recommendations on Riverine/Brown Water Navy kits, their availability, their quality, after-market support, etc. Also like to hear from anyone else who: a. Models in this area b. Fought in this area Thanks Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Alan Roots" Subject: King George V deck colour 1944 Help! Can anybody tell me the correct colour to use for the wooden decks of KGV, I'm pretty sure they were teak so can't be the dreadful deck tan suggested by Tamiya. A Humbrol mix and match if possible not any of the B****Y awful acrylics. Thanks in advance Regards Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Matthew Prager Subject: Re: Titanic sisterships The Titanic, Olympic, and Britanic are all sister ships. Scale Ship Modeler ran a three part article on building all three from the Titanic kit a couple of years ago, I don't remeber which issues though - maybe someone else on the list does? Matt Prager -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume