Subject: SMML VOL 1005 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 23:29:11 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Lindberg Stinkers 2: Re: commanders series models 3: 1/250 figures 4: Naval Fiction/USS Hibiscus 5: Re: Riverene- Brown Water Navy 6: KGV decks 7: Re: Illustrious 8: Re: USS Drayton DD-366 & USS Oswald models 9: Graf Spee colours 10: UK Nats 11: Re: Naval History Magazine 12: Re: PFH and Holland 13: Douglas Reeman naval fiction 14: Re: Savo 15: UGLEEEEEE 16: Tin Hats, Oilskins, and Seaboots 17: Pre-WW1 Colors 18: Re: Holland Sub 1/72 by Commander Models 19: Re: Kursk 20: HMS Illustrious - thanks 21: Re: Pacific Front 22: Pacific Front Hobbies 23: Canetoads and Ship Models 24: Re: Brown Water Navy Books & Kits 25: Re: Zeljko/Pacific Front 26: Re: USS SALEM 27: PCU Churchill tests modified gun at sea -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Airfix HMS Devonshire 2: Re: Seeadler 3: W R PRESS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: drwells@hogpb.mt.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: Lindberg Stinkers Derek noted the other day - >> Lindberg's small Cleveland cl kit may rate as one of the biggest stinkers of all time. I bought the Biloxi issue off eBay last December thinking it was the larger 1:600 kit. Wrong...this one scales out around 1:1000 scale, and is just awful. << It's not like you missed anything, Derek. The 1/600 kit is a real stinker too. IIRC, it doesn't have a single redeeming virtue. I've never heard of a Lindberg 1/1000 Cleveland CL though. I only know of the 1/600..... Then "Mike Leonard" wrote >> Basic rule of thumb for any Lindberg ship kit was, apparently, the smaller they got, the worse they got. At least a few of the larger scale (1/125 and greater) beasts were unique enough -- and had some potential -- for anyone wanting a real challenge. << I'm not quite sure I'd agree with Mike on his "rule of thumb". While not wishing to defend Lindberg too much, their 1/600-ish Rudderow class DE could be worse. It can be salvaged with a moderate amount of effort. OTOH, their 1/384 scale Hood and Bismarck kits are really bad, and would be extremely difficult to correct. The shape of the hull is fundamentally wrong in both cases. That's not easy to fix! Most of my opinions on Linberg kits are on Rajen's List, http://www.quuxuum.org/rajens_list/shiprevs.html As always, new opinions are welcome on the List. David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: commanders series models >> Does any of you have the same problem with Pacificfront Hobbies? Suggestions? << Order from www.santosminiatures.com My son and his wife run that site. Cheers, Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Matthew Prager" Subject: 1/250 figures Any idea were I can find 1/250 scale figures to convert to sailors? Matt Prager -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "sel4853" Subject: Naval Fiction/USS Hibiscus Hi all, Following on from the discussion on the naval fiction of Douglas Reeman one of his books features the actions of the USS Hibiscus. An ex WWll submarine schaser which following the Vietnam war was aboutto be sold off this book gives an excellant picture of life in the post Vietnam US Navy. Although Reeman is ex-RN his accounts are really authentic. A book well worth reading is is caaled "PATH of THE STORM" (UK £5.99 / Canada $10.99) This is the 33rd novel of modern naval fiction. His next one (not yet published) is called "For Valour" and refers to a Tribal Class Destroyer on the Russian Convoys. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Clem Jensen" Subject: Re: Riverene- Brown Water Navy You can get plans for a 1" to 1 foot PBR from the Floating Drydock. The History Channel has a good video on the PBR boats. There are several websites that cover PBR's. I don't have them handy but will find them if you wish. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: KGV decks Hi Alan I'm using Humbrol No 121 Pale Stone for the decks of my KGV. This gives a very light colour with a hint of grey (ideal for teak). Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: Illustrious A nice reference for your 1/400 Illustrious would be the Anatomy of the ship volume on Victorious by Ross Watton. It contains just about every detail drawing you could ask for (which keeps me from finishing my Airfix Victorious BTW-:). As it is a relatively recent Anatomy it should not be too hard to find. Pieter Cornelissen Delft, The Netherlands Who has spent the weekend taking photographs of the Russian frigat Shtandart, amongst others. If they turn out right I'll post them on the SMML list I think. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Timothy Dike Subject: Re: USS Drayton DD-366 & USS Oswald models >> My search is to find model(s) of the WWII destroyer"USS DRAYTON"DD-366 and the USS OSWALD, a destroyer escort. << The Drayton was a Mahan Class Destroyer, you will find a review of a 1/700 Resin kit that Kobo-Hiryu did a few years ago on ModelWarships.com (http://www.modelwarships.com/index1.html), look in the features section. The only other 1/700 kits are out of production and hard to find. Unfortunately the Kobo-Hiryu kit will need a lot of work. Classic Warships and Bureau of Small Warships are the two companies that used to produce a kit of this class. For the Oswald you can use Skywave/Pitroads excellent Cannon Class DE kit in 1/700. I'm not sure if the Cannon class was available in other scales. But I'm sure someone here on SMML knows. Regards, Timothy Dike Webmaster and Editor ModelWarships.com mailto:Cadman@modelwarships.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Keith T Bender Subject: Graf Spee colours Can anyone out there shed some light on a small project I have going. Building the Heller ADM. Graf Spee in pre war. Need info on hull and superstructure colors. Thank you, Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "John Rule" Subject: UK Nats I expect to be there at least on the Saturday. By the way Shane, enjoy your holiday. Don't worry about us, we'll still be here when you and Lorna get back. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Ken Goldman noted - >> I recently received the October 2000 issue of NAVAL HISTORY, published by USNI Press, and was dismayed to find more than 10% of its non-advertising pages (plus the cover) devoted to part one of a juvenile fiction story. << The quality does seem to have been going steadily downhill for at least the past couple of years, with more and more space being devoted to ads for kitschy merchandise and articles such as the one Ken describes. But I did like the little critique by film historian Lawrence Suid concerning the making of "U-571" (probably due for North American video release very soon). In it, he details the frustration of advisors like CAPT Hans-Joachim Krug, who was unhappy with numerous technical flaws, inaccurate uniforms, and the "plump tugboat" -- lamely passed off as a German destroyer -- that the director refused to make changes to. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: PFH and Holland >> I am looking for US Navy Holland Sub in 1/72 scale produced by Commander Models. So far I have found it at Pacificfront Hobbies, but after initial reply from them I am not able to get any reply to my messages regarding placing my order (I have sent three messages in ten days, with no result). << Hello Zeljko - Isn't Bill away on vacation? (Thought I read that he was.) What about ordering direct from Commander Series? They have excellent customer support. >> Regarding Holland Sub 1/72 scale, does any of you have some good (or bad) experience with that particular kit. Is it worth $65? Your opinions will be appreciated. << It's a big solid block of resin, but appears to be pretty accurate overall. Easy to assemble with not too many parts. I'm building it on a wooden cradle as it would look when taken out of the water for overhaul, and am in the process of collecting reference material and 1/72nd scale diorama parts appropriate for the period 1900-1905. A nice representation of this historic boat, IMHO... Mike Hi Mike, Yes, Bill Gruner is on holidays. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "sel4853" Subject: Douglas Reeman naval fiction See following for book details: http://www.myunicorn.com/bibl6/bibl0638.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Savo The History Channel in the USA listing for 8 SEPT 2000 (4:30 PM EST) shows: "Blunders in History: Naval Night Fighting at Guadalcanal" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "O'Connor" Subject: UGLEEEEEE SMMLies You want ugly????If they can be called ships,(they were nautical objects, for sure!!), the Vietnam era USN Monitors and other assorted brown water navy conversions certainly qualify as arguably the most ugly of naval vessels, except perhaps to the men who served upon them. Just my opinion. Bob O'Connor, where we would gladly give some of our summer heat to the Aussies for their games. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Tin Hats, Oilskins, and Seaboots Just received this great new book courtesy of the HMCS Sackville gift shop. "Tin Hats, Oilskins, and Seaboots: A Naval Journey 1938-1945" by Latham B. Jenson. The author served onboard several RN and RCN ships during the period referred to, survived the sinking of HMCS Ottawa, and this book is his memoir. It features some very nice pen and ink sketches of warships. Some are fairly small and lacking in a lot of detail, but others are two-pagers with both a profile (port or starboard) and deck view. HMCS Ottawa (I) is certainly just about the nicest of the bunch -- looks to be close to 1/350 scale. In addition to be an excellent read, the book has some wonderful views of corvettes and other vessels he either served on or operated in conjunction with during the Battle of the Atlantic and Normandy landings. Highly recommended. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Pre-WW1 Colors An article in the SEP/OCT 2000 issue of "Ships in Scale" magazine concerns the armored cruiser USS Pennsylvania, c.1911. A large scratchbuilt ship made from matchsticks! The author (Bill Emerson of Rochester, NY) states that on 01 January 1909, the US Navy directed that all battleships and cruisers be painted "Slate Gray", though no additional information is provided in the article. MWL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Holland Sub 1/72 by Commander Models >> I am looking for US Navy Holland Sub in 1/72 scale produced by Commander Models. So far I have found it at Pacificfront Hobbies, but after initial reply from them I am not able to get any reply to my messages regarding placing my order (I have sent three messages in ten days, with no result). Does any of you have the same problem with Pacificfront Hobbies? Suggestions? So, if I need to look somewhere else to find and order Holland Sub, where should I start. Some URLs of good service, fair price on-line shops would help a lot. Regarding Holland Sub 1/72 scale, does any of you have some good (or bad) experience with that particular kit. Is it worth $65? Your opinions will be appreciated. << HI: I've never ordered from Pac Front, but they are reputed to be reliable, but a bit slow to respond at times. I am not sure if they export, but why not order from Commanders directly!! They can be accessed from the Warships website, where by no small coincidence, you will find some photos of my build up of the Holland. It's not a bad kit, though a bit sparing in detail. You will want to find some references to add detail. The masts, which were unshipped when the craft was underway are a prime example of interesting additions. The biggest weakness with the kit are the aft end details, they are quite fragile, particularly the rudder/plane supports. Be very careful and/or be prepared to replace them. Is the kit worth the cost?? Do you want to model this subject?? If so, it's worth it, and the only kit available! OTOH, if you want to spend the time assembling references you could scratch build - it is not the most complex of kits! Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Jim Roberts" Subject: Re: Kursk As a former USN Submarine torpedoman (TM2 SS) and a 25 year employee of Electric Boat and Newport News subcontractors, I find this article both amusing and annoying at the same time. It's a perfect example of how much the general media doesn't know about what goes on (especially concerning submarines and submarine operations) and how much they are willing to speculate (and fabricate) just to be able to write a story. Using gas to impulse a weapon is nothing new and needn't be any more hazardous than anything else on a submarine. It all depends on the kind of gas used. USN FBM submarines have always launched Polaris, Poseidon and Trident missiles from underwater by impulsing them out of the tube with gas; pressurized inert gas. The Russians could be (and probably are) doing the same thing. Nothing risky there. The bigger problem is how to prevent big bubbles from escaping to the surface and giving away your position. US submarines use an impulse system wherein a high pressure air valve fires a ram into a tank of water surrounding the torpedo tube. The non-compressible water is forced through slots around the circumference of the torpedo tube. The sudden increase in water pressure squirts the fish out. No bubble. I'm sure the Russians must use a similar system. It ain't like rocket science. While it is possible to swim a fish out, US submariners prefer to impulse it out. That way you know the fish is clear of the tube. We don't want a fish running hot, stuck in the tube now do we? (torpedo tube lands are notorious for becoming warped after a deep dive. I have seen a fish stuck in a tube so that it wouldn't budge forward or backward). If the Russians are using a dangerous liquid fuel it's probably hydrogen peroxide. The USN had the hydrogen peroxide fueled Mk 16 torpedo from the 1950s through the 1970s and then got rid of them. Too dangerous. The fuel (in a sealed tank) had to be constantly monitored (hydrogen peroxide decomposes). If it decomposed too fast, (indicating imminent explosion) the cell was dumped. An exploding Mk 16 fuel tank is one of the possible causes of the loss of USS SCORPION. One of these tanks going off could detonate a warhead. Ain't no such animal as a torpedo that can do 300 knots in the water. To produce the kind of energy required to drive a 21 inch diameter (or a 26 inch diameter), 21 foot long weapon at that speed through water would require the kind of power put out by a fusion reactor. If you could do it, how would you control it??!!?? No, not even a solid fuel rocket motor of that size could do it. What the Russians are probably playing with is something like the old US SubRoc. SubRoc was a torpedo with a solid fuel rocket motor behind it. When impulsed from the tube, it went up and broke the surface, whereupon the motor ignited and flew the weapon on a set trajectory to the vicinity of the target submarine. The motor burned out and separated and the acoustic electric torpedo fell into the water where it went into either active or passive target acquisition mode. I'd bet that A.D. Baker II, "A Naval Expert" has never even been in a submarine torpedo room. The only US torpedo in service is the Mk 48 ADCAP. The weapon is powered by a self contained stirling (piston) engine using a stable fuel containing its own oxidizer. It is capable of 60 knots and that's plenty fast enough. Jim Roberts Budd Lake, NJ Member: Nautical Research Guild Ship Model Society of Northern New Jersey United States Submarine Veterans NJ North Base -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Stephen Allen Subject: HMS Illustrious - thanks John Thank you very much for your advice on references. I've also been doing quite a bit of searching for appropriate photo-etch etc, and the nearest set I can find for the more specific details is the Tom's Modelworks 1/400 set for KGV and Prince of Wales. This has cranes, radar (incl Yagi aerials for directors I think), railing and other bits and pieces that should read across to Illustrious with some mods. No direct luck on the lattice radio masts unfortunately, and I've searched everything I can find - even small scale railway accessory manufacturers looking for adaptable masts. Both Tom's Modelworks and GMM have Japanese carrier sets with lattice aerials in 1/500 which could be adapted, but only four per set - Illustrious has eight - which makes for an expensive option. Another possibility is the Pitroad 'Mr Joe' etched set for 1/700 Japanese carriers. This has eight masts that could be adapted but length/height may not be enough for Illustrious in this scale, even with the aerial 'hook' attached to the end. I may try this or have a go at homemade masts. There would clearly be a market for a dedicated upgrade kit if Heller were to re-release the Illustrious - Apart from the island, which certainly does need a lot of help it is a very impressive looking kit with great detailing possibilities. regards Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Pacific Front >> I am looking for US Navy Holland Sub in 1/72 scale produced by Commander Models. So far I have found it at Pacificfront Hobbies, but after initial reply from them I am not able to get any reply to my messages regarding placing my order (I have sent three messages in ten days, with no result). Does any of you have the same problem with Pacificfront Hobbies? Suggestions? << Yeah. Bill's been on vacation. He returned today, 8/28. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Jana & Pavel" Subject: Pacific Front Hobbies Hi Zelijko, You probably missed this: >> From: Bill Gruner Subject: PACIFIC FRONT ON VACATION We will be closed from August 18 to August 28. We have been trying our best to get all your backorders sent out, but some may have to wait until we re-open. We have had our biggest backlog of orders to fill in many months, and would ask for your patience. Thanks, hope to hear from you soon, we really appreciate your business. Bill Gruner Pacific Front Hobbies http://www.pacificfront.com << -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Shane Weier Subject: Canetoads and Ship Models Shane (the listmeister) says: >> Better watch out mate or the Queenslanders (AKA Canetoads) will send you their namesakes in droves. Just don't ask what they call us ;-ž << That'd be "cockroaches" :-ž And to get On Topic - our Queensland Model Hobbies Expo is over for another year with - sadly -the worst ever turnout of ship models. It's fortunate indeed that Shane and Lorna will be visiting us a month too late due to this embarrassing state of affairs. And Shane - watch what you say about us. That bottle of red you drink at my place next month may be doctored with a little of their poison. Not enough to kill, just enough to make you see things and believe that my better models are really ships with wings ;-) (the other) Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Brown Water Navy Books & Kits Some useful books on the "Brown Water Navy" in Vietnam are: (1) The Illustrated History of Riverine Forces, by John Forbes & Robert Williams (Vietnam #8 in the series by Bantam, 1987) (2) The US Navy in Vietnam (Sea Classics Special 1985) (3) The Vietnam Brown Water Navy: Riverine and Coastal Warfare 1965-69, by Gordon Rottman (Concord 1997) (4) The Brown Water Navy, by COL Victor Croziat, USMC-Ret. (Blandford 1984) (5) Riverine: A Pictorial History of the Brown Water Navy in Vietnam, by Jim Mesko (Squadron/Signal 1985) The old 1/48th scale Monogram kits of the PCF "Swift" boat (reissed by Revell-Monogram), "RAG" boat, and armed coastal junk were pretty good starting points to make good detailed models. There is also the Tamiya PBR Mk-2 and DML LSSC in 1/35th scale, and a handful of resin kits from various companies in scales ranging from 1/35 (Viking monitor) to 1/96, as well as the little GHQ line of metal wargame kits in 1/285th scale. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Lump518176@aol.com Subject: Re: Zeljko/Pacific Front Zeljko, Pacific Front Hobbies is on vacation. Try again next week. Jerry Phillips -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: USS SALEM "John Sheridan" wrote: >> Sorry, but that SALEM model has already been sold. However, I am working on another one for a certain ship model magazine that will be even better than the one displayed at the SMML convention..... << Translation: "My new model of the SALEM won't have the same mistakes as the last one." (sorry John, this member of the Canadian delegation couldn't resist : ) It really was a nice model) Darren -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: PCU Churchill tests modified gun at sea http://www.seawaves.com/Articles/USN/august2000/00081610.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bergschöld Pelle Subject: Airfix HMS Devonshire Gentlemen! I'm looking for an Airfix 1/600 HMS Devonshire. Does anyone have a kit left for me? BR Pelle SWE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: drwells@hogpb.mt.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: Seeadler Fellow SMMLies, All this talk of the Revell Seeadler reminds me that I've got one in my closet that I'm probably never going to build. I'm willing to sell it for $15 (US) or best offer.... Please contact me off-list. David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: W R PRESS Camouflage Volume one Royal Navy 1939-41 has been delivered from the printer, and is now in the process of being shipped to dealers, hobby shops and book shops. Contact your favourite supplier to obtain your copy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume