Subject: SMML VOL 1008 Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:25:07 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Picture Sources 2: Re: Ceramcoat 3: Re: Tarrant's King George V Book 4: Re: Ticonderoga funny spots 5: Photos in Tarrant KGV book 6: HRS Britannic 7: Re: White Ensign Models 8: Re: Kursk 9: Re: FlightPath /Great Little Ships Line 10: USN Ship photos and colors 11: Re: Picture Sources? 12: Re: Landing Craft Support - Large (LCS(L)) Camouflage 13: Re: Slate Gray 14: Re: Picture Sources 15: Re: Kursk 16: Republican sub found? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: 2 years of Internet Modeler 2: Books for Sale 3: W R PRESS Camouflage volume one 4: IPMS(UK) - New Warship SIG 5: Special Offer 6: 1/350 Konig/Grosser Kurfurst Photoetched Brass set.. PIX! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Hi gang, Well we're off on holidays for 20 days in sunny Queensland. Will catch you all when we get back. In the meantime, to supplement the other message boards around, such as APMA, Warships, Warship Camouflage etc, I've set up a temp SMML Holiday board at: http://boardserver.mycomputer.com/list.html?&action=-1&f=1&u=mikedunn This board will be moderated & the normal rules of SMML apply there as well. Any replies to tonight's SMML can be put there. When I get back, I'll take the board down & possibly set up some special SMMLs with the modelling info from the board therein. In the meantime have fun modelling. Regards, Shane & Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Gene Larson Subject: Re: Picture Sources From: "Poore, Devin" >> I am wondering if anyone knows of sources for pictures other than Floating Drydock? << The Naval Institute has thousands, and they do sell them. There are a bunch of photo sources on the NRG web site's list of sources for model builders and researchers section. http://www.Naut-Res-Guild.org Gene Larson Alexandria, VA NRG Member -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Re: Ceramcoat Hi All, I saw Marc's posting and thought I would pass this along. The "testing" is still ongoing. This is the post I made to the WWI mailing list. Any thoughts, ideas, or info is welcome. I have been busy at the bench doing some testing with Ceramcoat paints and here is what I have come up with so far. I used a few "test" colors: Black, White, Dolphin Grey, Red. I used the gray for most of the testing. As far as brushing, I have tried straight from the bottle(about the same thickness as Jo Sonja acrylics) and this seemed to work if spread out. I tried brushing after mixing 50-50 with Future and that worked a little better. Probably should back off the Future to 40% or 30%. This showed minor streaking but covered in two light brush coats. I brushed the paint onto bare sheet styrene and two "primed" locations: an old painted model and sheet styrene primed with Ceramcoat Matt Varnish(more on this later). In both cases, the paint covered beautifully. I then subjected all 3 to the "tape test". As Scotch tape is about as sticky as it gets, I used this and masking tape. The paint was allowed to dry 24 hours. It pulled off of the bare, unprimed sheet styrene, but didn't so much as leave a flake on the tape from the painted model or the piece primed with the Matt Varnish. Next step was to test airbrushing. I used 70-30 mixture of paint to Future and this sprayed beautifully. I sprayed over primed and unprimed plastic and did several(3-4) light coats. The paint covered beautifully and didn't clog the airbrush anywhere near as quickly as other acrylics. I also understand that there is a retarder medium for this paint which I plan to try. I haven't tried the tape test yet, but it seems to stick better after several light airbrushed coats than a heavier brushed coat. These paints are very slightly grainier than enamels. Using Humbrol as a smoothness of 10, these are probably an 8. However, unless you are 2 inches from the surface, it is not noticeable. The Ceramcoat Matt Varnish is turning out to be a gem of a discovery!! It mixes perfectly with Future to cut the gloss as well as going on bare plastic perfectly and not reacting with dried enamel. Best of all, it is dead flat. It seems to make a great primer for the Ceramcoat, although it appears that any primer will due as good undercoat for Ceramacoat. I have used water to thin it slightly for airbrushing. Lastly, the cost. The Ceramcoat paint comes in 2oz(approx 60ml??? Please correct me if I am wrong) plastic bottles. I have seen them as little as .99-1.49 per bottle. The Matt Varnish is 2.79 for a 2oz bottle and comes in an 8oz size for 7.59!!!! At 2.49 a half-ounce, we can see that the equivalent amount of Testors will cost us $10.00!!!!! While not in the FS standards, the color range of Ceramcoat is quite extensive and you will need to do some mixing. However, from looking at what colors are available(285 different colors), many FS colors are represented in this line of paints. They just have different names!!! Also, acrylics are safer to use than enamels, although I still use the same ventilation and respirator that I use for enamels. I still plan a little more research and testing, especially with airbrushing with various masks, etc. I also sent for a color chart to see which colors a typical military modeler will need to mix. At this point however, I am sold. As my enamels are used I plan to replace with Ceramacoat. I use oils over acrylics to paint my figures, but can use Ceramcoat in place of Jo Sonja in a pinch! By the way, I highly recommend Jo Sonja tube acrylics(actually a gouache) as a base coat for oils. I am sending this to Testors parent, RPM to let them know that they have lost a customer because of their price gouging. Let me know if there is any other testing you folks can think of. I certainly think these paints are worth a try. Regards, John P.S. No connection to Ceramcoat or anyone else associated with them. If you folks have other ideas or different types of paint, let me know!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Kenneth Davis Subject: Re: Tarrant's King George V Book I recently purchased this book in its softcover re-released printing primarily to obtain photo references on the KGV class battleships. In a word, the photographs in the book are "disappointing." They run the gamut from extremely grainy to very (very) dark to moderately acceptable. If I had it to do all over again, I would not buy the book knowing what I do now. Sorry to sound so harsh, but I was very disappointed by the book. Hope This Helps, Kenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Ticonderoga funny spots >> Anyone have any insight as to what to watch out for? I'd appreciate any and all feedback. << I built the Ticonderoga a some years back to test fit my detail set for that model and I ran into a funny spot you should be aware of during construction. The helicopter hangar is a funny piece of engineering. As I recall, you have to be very careful to be sure everything is fits properly. Once it fits together properly, double check the fit to the deck and superstructure. The hangar door must fit flush against the wall of the superstructure or you'll have all kinds of problem when you apply the superstructure around it. Just make sure you have a good fit everywhere including the superstructure. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Photos in Tarrant KGV book Hi GM You have a nice photo on the cover.... and that's it. There are a lot of photos inside but the quality of reproduction is extremely poor and most are useless. I have the reissue but apparently the original was no better either. The text isn't up to much lacking insight and understanding of the subject. Try to get hold of Raven and Roberts British Battleships. Its far more useful. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Bruce" Subject: HRS Britannic Question,# one Has anyone ever heard of Entex Industries Inc. Carson Calif.? I have just bought a 1\350 scale Titanic with one piece Hull all black as picture shows Question,#2 what changes does one have go through? or extra kits, are needed to turn this hard to find model, into the HRS Britannic Hospital ship? date of model 1975, other than Painting the hull White?, And to the person asking about War time photos real war time photos "No website Known" PhotoMarine, Archives No Web site Known, Research the National Librarys Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: White Ensign Models >> the pattern is about an inch and a quarter long, based on Al Ross's drawings (who will definitely need his glasses for this one :^)) .. << Caroline, Caroline, Caroline...is this the proverbial waving of the red cape in front of the bull????? :-} -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Jim Roberts" Subject: Re: Kursk >> The weapon is called Skval, and is a super-cavitation torpedo and was revealed to the world nearly 5 or more years ago in Janes Defence Weekly. At the time, the point which was made was that it was always going to be a fairly short-range weapon, primarily designed for harbour defence, purely because the torpedo was going to be limited to about half the fuel a normal one would carry (utilising the other half of its volume for the fuel required to produce the super-cavitation effect. Skval has a top speed of 200kts - around 230mph, or 370km/h. However, the weapon doesn't run up to full speed directly - it exits the tube slowly, performs initial course changes, then accelerates to full speed. << Very interesting article. However, while I was wrong about the speed capabilities (and potentials), I was not wrong about the range and control problems. The article states that the weapon is a "straight line" weapon only and has to be pointed directly at the target and fired out of the tube with what it called "some kind of mechanical catapult" system in order to achieve initial speed, because it is impossible to control/correct coarse or depth once fired. Also, if they're going to give this thing any more than a couple of hundred yards range, they had better find a MUCH more powerful propulsion source. OK, so Russian submarines are, or have been carrying these things. So what. Under their current (very restrictive) technical limitations, how effective can they be in an actual combat situation? Having spent many hours in torpedo attack trainers (and more than a few hours at actual battle stations torpedo in the Norwegian Sea, and a couple of other places, tracking and computing firing solutions on real live Soviet submarines), my guess is 'not very.' >> Actually the leading theory is it was a Mk 37 battery malfunction leading to a warhead cookoff. << That's the leading theory according to the authors of _Blind Man's Bluff_, but AFAIK, while the Navy has acknowledged that a possible scenario for the loss of SCORPION involves a Mk 37 running hot in the room and becoming armed, They do not acknowledge the battery explosion/fire problem. A third scenario involves an explosion of the ship's main storage battery. In fact, many members of US Submarine Veterans, Inc. who have experience on this class of boat like this third solution the best. Last year a fairly extensive article proposing this scenario appeared in _American Submariner_. >> The reason that only the Mk 48 survives today is the switch from analog fire control on Permits and Sturgeons to all digital on the Los Angeles (Mk 117 and BSY-1) and later subs (BSY-2). << The first prototype of the Mk 48 appeared in 1970, before the LOS ANGELES was even laid down (though the design and development of the new class was well along). The reason I know this is because I was on the PERMIT Class submarine that loaded out the very first prototype for initial sea trials. The funny thing was, the thing didn't fit into the torpedo tube, so we had to turn around and take it back! >> I'd bet that A.D. Baker II, "A Naval Expert" has never even been in a submarine torpedo room. << >> You would lose that bet. He was a naval officer, and then civilian employee of the Department of the Navy before he became a writer and illustrator, with over 50 books to his credit. He has served on a Presidential Commission, and won a distinguished Civilian Service award. He has been editor of Combat Fleets of the World for years, a respected reference work. << That just makes his statement 10 times more irresponsible than if he had none of those credentials. Arjun Sarup wrote: >> Sorry, but I think this is getting personal. Bash any SMML topic to bits, but please refrain from making comments about people whom you don't know. I'd also safely bet that that "Naval Expert" probably knows more about matters of nautical interest than most of us on SMML. In all fairness, I believe the hon. gentleman concerned should withdraw his statement. << Sorry, I stand by my statement. Nothing personal at all. It is incumbent upon those of us with greater knowledge to use it and speak from it responsibly. I believe that some of the statements made by Baker in the news article were ill considered and irresponsible. Also, we all make comments about people we don't "know" every day. Every time a politician or a celebrity makes a speech or behaves in a particular way, half the world jumps up to criticize them. It's the price of celebrity, notoriety or whatever. When I wrote my very first booklet on the history and modeling of a Cape Henry pilot boat, the publisher said to me "your work will be criticized. If you insist on sticking your head above the bulwarks, expect to have it shot at." He was right. Jim Roberts Budd Lake, NJ Member: Nautical Research Guild Ship Model Society of Northern New Jersey United States Submarine Veterans, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: FlightPath /Great Little Ships Line >> this set is now defunct in order to avoid any confusion between this product and the 19 new sets for the 72nd Flower that we will be releasing in October in our Great Little Ships range. Happy Modelling, David Parkins << David, glad to see that you have made it here, welcome, however be aware that you have now made a promise to all of us here which we will be holding you to :-) If the upgrades are not forthcoming a horde of rabid SMML Flower addicts will descend upon you :-) Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "O'Connor" Subject: USN Ship photos and colors SMMlies- While looking for research material for the base ships of the Vietnam war BWN, I accessed the following site of USN ships. Bookmark it if you find it as helpful as I did. I know some of you already have it.... www.navsource.org/Archives/home Bob O'Connor, In sunny Central Florida, where the only thing more oppressive than the late summer heat is the late summer bugs. Joe Damato- Call or email.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Picture Sources? Devin, There is another source, its called Real War Photos. Their address is - Real War Photos P O Box 728 Hammond, IN. 46325 USA Send $2.00 for the regular catalog. The Destroyer Catalog is $5.00 You will need both. You will not regret this purchase. Their charge for a photo is $4.25, with no minimum. They have other catalogs, which you will get a list of. Make sure you ask for all update photo list. It is important. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Landing Craft Support - Large (LCS(L)) Camouflage Hi Ed, I'll take a shot at an answer, realizing that Alan Raven may well correct me. According to Part V of Alan's "The Development of Naval Camouflage 1914-1945, United States Navy - World War Two," (Plastic Ship Modeler, 1997/3), the first official patterns for landing craft were issued by the Camouflage Section in March 1943, and came under the Measure 31 designation. This was the well-known Measure 31/20L, with the "L" standing for landing craft. Other patterns developed later included Measure 31/5L and 31/8L. Alan's article deals with the various revisions to greens and browns that took place between 1943 and 1945, but doesn't specifically mention medium or light patterns. However, I would expect that if these patterns carried the suffix "L", then the colors used would have been greens rather than blues. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Slate Gray While I haven't got time at the moment to dig out the technical paper I did some years ago on the use of historic photos as an aid to paint analysis, me recollection is that greens were rendered only slightly darker by blue-sensitive and orthochromatic plates and films. These emulsions rendered blues much lighter than normal, while reds appeared as black and yellows as very dark grays. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Picture Sources The U.S. Naval Institute has a huge photo collection, but they are NOT inexpensive. The Still Picture Collection of the U.S. National Archives is another source. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: CokerRE@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 23:39:06 EDT Subject: Re: Kursk >> I'd bet that A.D. Baker II, "A Naval Expert" has never even been in a submarine torpedo room. << I can not believe that someone had the audacity to allow such a petty, childish statement to find its way onto the public media. Because of this and other similar comments, the SMML list is without the commentary of a number of people whose knowledge and expertise most of us respect. Last year Mr. Baker received a number of vicious, petty e-mails from people who were offended by his comments about US leadership in warship construction. Thanks to those small minded people we are now without the commentary of one of the world's leading experts on warships of all navies. PC Coker/Charleston -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Cataldo Torelli Subject: Republican sub found? Hi SMMLiers, Anybody knows something about the localization of a Republican sub sunk in the Spanish Civil War near the Almeria coast, in the Mediterranean Sea? Best regards, Cataldo Torelli. Madrid, Spain. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Bob Pearson" Subject: 2 years of Internet Modeler Greetings all, Hard to believe it is two years since the first issue of Internet Modeler went live - or three since Aviation What-Not (IM's predecessor). For our second anniversary issue we have the following naval related items - 1/200 Nichimo I-19 by Richard Eaton - PSM review by Shane Jenkins - Cruiser SIG review by Shane Jenkins - Warship Perspective: Flower Class Corvettes by John Lambert review - preview of the Warship Perspective on RN Camouflage - full review in October There is also an amazing example of the art of scratchbuilding by the late George Lee and John Alcorn with their work on a biplane Vought. Regards, Bob Pearson Managing Editor / Internet Modeler http://www.internetmodeler.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "lcp9" Subject: Books for Sale Hello All, I've got the following used books for sale, all are in very good condition, and the price includes surface shipping in the US U.S. Cruisers by Norman Friedman $55.00 Warship Quarterly ;numbers 1, 6, 7, 39, $15.00 EACH Warship Profile 23 HMS Furious part 1 $20.00 Warship Profile 24 HMS Furious part 2 $20.00 Thanks, David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: W R PRESS Camouflage volume one To those who have reviewed, are going to review and who might review; The visual errors on page 26 (Sheffield) and page 53 (Fomidable) will form part of an errata that will be in Volume Two which will be published by years end. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: IPMS(UK) - New Warship SIG Some of you may be wondering about the ESCORT SIG as mentioned in a recent SMML posting by Graham of the Cruiser SIG. As there are already SIGs for the larger ships (Aircraft Carriers, Battleships and Cruisers), I thought it would be a good idea to start one for all the smaller surface ships used by navies (eg destroyers, frigates, sloops, corvettes, patrol craft etc) - after all there have been many more of them and recent destroyers are larger than many of the earlier cruisers. I have already circulated the leaders of the other related existing SIGs and have asked for a request to be included in the next IPMS(UK) Magazine. In the meantime, if any of you are interested in starting such a SIG, please let me have your IPMS membership number and your address so that I can send you an introductory newsletter (which I have named ESCORT) that I have prepared. Les Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Special Offer First, thank you to those who pointed out that while I quoted a price of $16 for Alan Raven's Royal Navy Camouflage book, the price listed on our website was $26. That latter figure is in error and our webmaster will be correcting things. The price is $16. Now the Special Offer: purchase the book and both of our Royal Navy paint chip sets together and take $5 off the normal total price; purchase the book and one Royal Navy paint chip set and take $3 off the normal price. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "carolinecarter" Subject: 1/350 Konig/Grosser Kurfurst Photoetched Brass set.. PIX! Hi Guys, Pic posted at the following location. http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/wembrass/wempe3517.jpg and for news on new sets on the new WEM Airfix detail sets go to http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/news.htm Good news for customers from the U.S.A. We will soon be able to accept personal US dollar cheques at no extra charge. Please contact me, Caroline, for further details. Also, we now have a Euro account so payment can be made to us in Euros. Catch y'all later! CC White Ensign Models PS Please E-Mail me at wem@onetel.net.uk or at the above E-Mail address to place your order.. Thanks! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume