Subject: SMML VOL 1012 Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:15:43 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Benson Class kit 2: Ned And The Pearl Harbor Movie 3: Naval History magazine 4: PearL Harbor Movie Info On Seawaves 5: 5"/38 Mounts 6: Re: Revell USS Forrest Sherman(H-463) 7: Indiana Class 8: Chinese Armored Cruisers 9: Challenged by Scale 10: Benson Class??? 11: Awesome Tamiya 12: 1/72 Kit List 13: For those who want REAL Detail in your models ... 14: Re: Tre Koner/Gota Legon 15: Re: Need Help (please) - 1/350 helicopters 16: Kursk Submarine Was Equipped With Fighting Missiles When It Sunk 17: Re: Pearl Harbor movie will be crap! 18: Re: Yamato Help 19: PLAGUE In our Movie Theaters! 20: Re: HMCS Warrior/Magnificent 21: Tonnes Of Paint? 22: Re: Picture of Kirov-centered battlegroup wanted 23: PE scale query -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: For Sale - PT Boats At War 2: New web page 3: Some Naval Books I have for Sale 4: Model Ship Journal-Temporary "Foreign" Price Reduction -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Benson Class kit >> Does anyone know of a (preferably styrene) kit of a Benson class destroyer in 1/350 or larger scale? I have never worked with resin and would prefer to stay with molded styrene if possible. Ordranaux was a Benson class built at Fore River Shipyard, Quincy Mass. in 1942. If I can't find a kit, will have to try and get plans and see if I can scratch-build it - but I shudder at the thought. << Blue Water Navy makes a beautiful Resin 1/350th Benson Class DD in several fits. I find it interesting that you are willing to scratchbuild a ship but not build a resin kit. John Sheridan www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Ned And The Pearl Harbor Movie Right-On Ned! I don't give a pile of poop if a movie is accurate or not, as long as things blow up real nice, make a lot of noise and I have a blazin' good time. Gotta have a big ol' tub of popcorn in my lap and get the matinee prices, too. Sure it depicts an awful time in world history, but it's only play acting, folks. When I want the real thing, I'll get a fine docu or flip to the history channel and feel bad for all the good young men who should have had a chance to be old guys now. For entertainment, give us a good ship movie anytime. Anything that mainstreams the subject of ships is OK by me. Victor Baca Model Ship Journal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Ken Goldman" Subject: Naval History magazine Concerning my two posts about the changes in NAVAL HISTORY, constructive comments on ways to generate an expanded readership without watering down the content can be directed to Fred Schultz, Editor-in-Chief FSchultz@usni.org Please treat this seriously and don't over-burden him. I have also suggested that he take a peek at us (SMML). Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER unique wood sculpture and fine scale models www.walruscarpenter.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: PearL Harbor Movie Info On Seawaves The excellent Seawaves e-mail magazine has an article heading the 23 September issue on the making of the Peral harbor movie aboard USS Constelation. The quote by Ben Affleck about the movie's acuracy was most interesting. Victor Baca Model Ship Journal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: 5"/38 Mounts >> See also Friedman's _U.S. Naval Weapons_, p.68 for isometric and cutaway views of this mount, with all elements numbered and keyed. Also--and no dig at Norm--that famous photo of MISSOURI about to take a kamikaze shows the crew positions of quad 40mm mounts, not 5"38 twins (which, of course, are in enclosed gunhouses). << Thanks for clarifying - I didn't describe it very well. I have the "famous photo of MISSOURI about to take a kamikaze" on my wall, and, as you say, the crews it shows are for the 40 mm's, not the 5" twins. It does show a dramatic view of the 5" turret with guns depressed trying to aim at the approaching kamikaze. Good thing its bomb didn't go off. The crew members who saw the plane apparently about to hit them must have had some pretty strong emotions about that time. Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: MDDoremus@aol.com Subject: Re: Revell USS Forrest Sherman(H-463) Harold, IIRC the kit works out to something like 1/315. So 1/350 aftermarket parts will be close. I don't think that anyone has done a photoetch set for that set of kits (Revell Forest Sherman / John Paul Jones and AHM Hull(?)/Decatur) Mark Doremus Eden Prairie, MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Bruce" Subject: Indiana Class Queries about Indiana Class Battle Ships [i.e.] USS Massachusetts, at what time in their lives did they change over to cagemast? and what would one recommend, using to show that detail? in 1\225 scale, with all other PE kits out there Has anyone come up a set in that scale yet? I stand corrected on the Ayers Rock spelling, nice to have the Jenkins family back from holiday. and Last as a former U.S. Marine stationed at NAS ~ Pearl Harbor late 68" until mid 70s giving {free tours} from the Navy landings to the "Arizona Manorial" one has to Just stand in the manorial itself, and look~out across the Harbor, ,,,,,,,and think about what happened here in less than 20 min over 1150 lives Lost, plus Loss of life else where, in and around Ford Island, then look at the Manorial Wall and see all those Names its the same feeling one get's at the War Memorial in Canberra, YOU Arm Chair~Flexors, best leave it alone, and let the Hollywood people do their level best, at what they do, and that's tell a story about what happed,,, 7th Dec. 1941 and Wait until the Movie is released, next year on our Memorial Day. foot-note} Lets all get back to what we do best, and that's build scale ship models, R.Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Chinese Armored Cruisers Thanks to all who told me about Phoenix Models and Squadron. I've now got three different kits of 19th Century Chinese Armored Ships coming my way, from Zengdenfu. Now, can anybody point me in the direction of information on the prototype ships. I'm guessing that, like the Japanese, the Chinese at the turn of the century were having other powers manufacture their heavy-metal ordnance ... if so, these Chinese ships might be based on Russian, German, Austrian, Italian, French, British (or even, gasp, American) designs - which means (to me) conversion possibilities. However, I need sources. Any help? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Challenged by Scale Yesterday's request for 1/350th scale Commanche helicopters SHOULD have read 1/700 - I guess I'm twice as excited about this ship I'm building ... so, I need two 1/700-scale RAH-66 Commanche stealth helicopters. OR, I need any 1/700 helicopter with a Fenestron (rear rotor in a circular mount - like the French-built Coast Guard helicopters also used - I think - by the PRC navy). Or any helicopters in 1/700. Any suggestions? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Benson Class??? >> The father of one (of many - I am old enough to have more doctors than old friends, now) of my doctors was a Lt. Commander (medical Officer) on uss Ordranaux DD617 during ww2. I would like to someday build a model of this ship for him as his father passed away last year and they were apparently very close. Does anyone know of a (preferably styrene) kit of a Benson class destroyer in 1/350 or larger scale? I have never worked with resin and would prefer to stay with molded styrene if possible. Ordranaux was a Benson class built at Fore River Shipyard, Quincy Mass. in 1942. If I can't find a kit, will have to try and get plans and see if I can scratch-build it - but I shudder at the thought. << The hull number you cited was the last of the 29 Bensons, and the hull numbers overlap the Fletchers - the Benson came first, but (along with the Livermore/Gleaves class) they were produced at the same time. Tamiya makes a 1/350th Fletcher, and several list members here make after-market add-ons to make it more detailed, more accurate (or to do the square bridge). They are not the same ship, but they fitted similar gear in many respects (especially the later Bensons), and the Tamiya kit might be a place to begin your conversion/construction. I suggest you start by getting more information on the ship - Bensons were pre-Fletcher class ships (from a design perspective - produced '38-41 while Fletchers were produced '41-42). Reilly's US Destroyers of WW-II says the Bensons were produced in five blocks (five sets of sequential hull numbers) and DD617 was the last. Research should be needed, as this hull was in production after the first Fletchers were already in combat, so some updates over first-run Bensons make sense (as speculation). Reilly notes (for instance) on P.61 that late-run Benson/Gleaves class ships had a redesigned bridge and a lowered Mk. 37 Gun Director. Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "MJW" Subject: Awesome Tamiya I have to agree with a comment here on SMML two years ago - the Tamiya 1/72 MTB's are possibly the best plastic injection molded kits on the market today!! Almost no flash, no scratches due to everything packed separetely, instructions with some photo's. Incredible stuff!! Anyway, I am looking for reference photographs of both the Vosper Perkasa and the JMSDF PT-15. Can any kind soul help me out, or a web site, or a book or something? Malcolm Canada P.S. Vancouver IPMS - Keith - is Bonsor Rec Centre near Metrotown Center? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "MJW" Subject: 1/72 Kit List I am trying to put a list together of 1/72 (Seventy Two yes there is no Italeri Zero at the end of that!!!) scale kits - would love everyones input to complete the list.....just the list folks, no politics about whose is better (well not yet anyway!) I understand that Task Force 72 is no longer selling stuff through Michael Kear, so I have left those off this list - Is this correct Mike? Tamiya Vosper Perkasa (Malaysian Navy) JMSDF PT-15 Revell (this from WEM's website) HMCS Snowberry (ex Matchbox Bluebell) PT117 torpedo boat VOSPER British WWII MTB DGzRS ARKONA German Border Patrol Vessel Airfix S Boat (E Boat on the box) RAF Rescue Launch Vosper Torpedo Boat (WWII) Great Little Ships (www.DJParkins.com) Planned but not announced : Fairmile B & Fairmile D MGBs/MTBs 'Grey Goose' Steam Gun Boat 'Round Table' Minesweeper 72' Harbour Defence Motor Launch Interavia (also from WEM website) Tupolev G-5 WW2 Torpedo Boat, resin, etched brass and white metal kit After Market parts : Great Little Ships HR Products Sirmar Any others? Hi MJW, Well there are a few more, depending if you want plastic sailing ships as well? But here's a list from my Shiplist (URL at the bottom) Kaiten "Wings 1/72" vacform LCM Mk.III & Sherman Airfix 1/76 Search & rescue cruiser Berlin Revell (May be the same kit as listed above??) Soviet G-5 Torpedo boat Homtk (not sure about this one) U-Boat type VIIb Amati resin U Boat type VII U-47 Amati resin (most probably the same kit as above?) USS Gato class submarine Combat Models (not sure about the scale here) Narrow boat (canal) Craftline 1/76 Plus the Revell PT boat has been released under various numbers including PT-109 & PT-73. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Ned Barnett Subject: For those who want REAL Detail in your models ... This from Military.com ... Gender neutral water closets...It seems a move is afoot to have all "heads" odor-free and offer one-size-fits-all commodes for male and female sailors aboard the Navy's carriers to reduce maintenance time. With over 11,000 women assigned to ships and air squadrons, the days of high-maintenance stainless steel urinals are soon to be a thing of the past. It seems all sailors may be "sitting" in the near future. Gotta get those details straight! (as an aside, at the 1975 IPMS Nationals in DC, I overheard two modelers debating whether or not master modeler John Ficklen had gotten the color of the relief tube correct in his 1/32 Spitfire [which later won best in show for category that year] ... so there IS a precedent for this modeling post ... ... and BTW - Johnnie overheard them, and with the class he's so known for, walked up with a paintbrush and offered to let them fix it ...) Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Tre Koner/Gota Legon I'm not a big fan of the Swedish ships, but I would love to get my hands on a 1:700 Dutch De Zeven Proviencien in her CLG configuration. That's been one on my personal wish list for many years now. Derek Wakefield -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: RhinoBones@aol.com Subject: Re: Need Help (please) - 1/350 helicopters >> I am in desperate need of two 1/350 RAH-66 Comanche Helicopters (to use to make stealth Sea Commanches for use on my 1/350th DD 21 Zumwalt) << I can't help you with the helicopters but, depending on which of the competing teams wins the DD-21 contract, I could be in a position to help you with your overall Zumwalt design. Two teams (Blue and Gold, sounds like the UCLA football squad) are currently writing their proposals for submission to the Navy. Contract award is scheduled for April 2001. After contract award the external views will become public knowledge, however, there may be some additional dimensional information available which can be released to the public domain. Word of caution for you . . . if you are using the pictures from the Government web site for your model, you just may want to put your modeling efforts on hold until the contract is awarded. The web site pictures do not necessarily reflect the designs of the competing teams. Also, the first Zummie is not scheduled to hit the water until about 2011. By then, who knows what the air complement will be. The Navy certainly doesn't!! Bottom line, scratch building a DD-21 may be premature at this point in time. Then again . . . maybe you know something I don't. Send me a note discussing your design/concept. I would be interested in hearing about your design. Final note . . . expect some good humored ribbing from the others on this mailing list. Anyone who wants to model a surfboard (as I've heard it called) might be considered a bit loose in the nuts. A few pretty good sized barbs have been stuck in the Zummie by the hard core modeling collective. Some of them were actually pretty good !! Regards, RhinoBones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Kursk Submarine Was Equipped With Fighting Missiles When It Sunk http://allnews.ru/english/2000/09/22/kursk/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "1250man" Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor movie will be crap! I agree with Ned (the former screen writer) for the most part. TITANIC generated tremendous new interest in ship models and stimulated the hobby which benefited all of us. And this despite the fact that many "rivet counters" hated the love story, since it interfered with their concentration on the engine rooms. However, there is a downside. Movie bombs like MIDWAY! tend to discourage others from making more movies in this genre. So, successful movies encourage more, unsuccessful ones do not. And one of the things that helps make the movies successful is accurate sets. Furthermore, TITANIC and SAVING PRIVATE RYAN both can attribute some portion of their success to the meticulous attention paid to detail and set work. In fact most of the pre-release hype about TITANIC was not about the love story; it was about the amount of expense and effort going into the creation of accurate and realistic sets, down to having even the carpets supplied by the same manufacturer that did them for the original ship. So there's no doubt that attention to detail and accuracy are important. Combine those with good acting and an interesting story and you should have a blockbuster. Paul Jacobs 1250 SCALE Editor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "edger1" Subject: Re: Yamato Help Thanks to all who gave me sources for Yamato references. It sure looks like HLJ is a great place to look. Rusty, thank you for the offer of copies, I'll contact off list for details. It is great to see the list back and I do hope the holiday was enjoyable. I'm looking forward to mine: Harley- Davidson trough the Texas Hill Country for a week with no worries or cares. Thought the Nimitz Museum in Fredricksburg would have some interesting Pacific War items. Working on the Amati Type VIIB 1936 in 1/72nd right now as far as ships go. Also, puttering with a Brit 25 Pounder used by the Desert Rats. Take care everyone. Dave E Austin, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Bill Gruner Subject: PLAGUE In our Movie Theaters! I have become aware, as I have read the ongoing negative comments about the upcoming Pearl Harbor movie (which hasn't even been released yet or seen by our would-be reviewers), that this surely will be one of the worst movies of all time, ranking right up there with "Plan 9 From Outer Space" and "The Accidental Tourist". But what is more disturbing is that this movie, in contrast to the aforementioned movies which were merely laughable or deeply boring, will be a Trojan horse of subtle and even open threats to our national psyche, our families, even our pets. If it weren't bad enough that sex and violence were such a degrading influence, now we are faced with - INNACURATE MODELING IN MOVIES! I went to see the action movie "U-571" a few months ago with my son, and in retrospect I should have paid attention to the pre-release reviewers on SMML - and saved my money and stayed home. Even though the movie was fast paced, very exciting, good plot, reasonably good acting, great sets and effects, and both my son and I both agreed it was great and very entertaining, that night I could not sleep at all, as I tossed and turned and my tortured mind re-ran endlessly the grossly inaccurate German "destroyer" scenes, and the incorrect top-wing markings on the PBY at the end of the movie. If I had been a sensitive and caring parent, I would have shielded my son's eyes with my popcorn box during those awful moments. I want to suggest that we, as a modeling community, be deeply troubled by these gross distortions of reality by the screen industry, and take action. Since the industry obviously won't police itself in regards to this critical element, we have to step up to the plate and do something. Perhaps we could start by insisting that all movies be reviewed by an expert panel of noteworthy IPMS judges, with appropriate ratings given to them according to their MODELLING ACCURACY. A rating system, keyed to IPMS standards, could be developed that give keen clues to the modeling integrity of the movie, such as "PIM" (Pitifully Inaccurate Markings), "SOB" (Swastikas On Backwards), "SNF" (Seams Not Filled), "CAW" (Colors All Wrong), etc., etc. If you are concerned, if you care deeply about the future of our country and our children, I urge to think about these things. Feel free to make a print-out of this letter, circulate it among your neighbors, give a copy to your pastor, leave some in the head at work. It's time modelers got a good night's sleep. Bill Gruner Pacific Front Hobbies Hi Bill, ROTFLOSAO. Shane & Mistress Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: HMCS Warrior/Magnificent Ray, The National Archives has several drawings of Maggie listed. Let me know if you want the numbers and contact info. Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: RhinoBones@aol.com Subject: Tonnes Of Paint? I have an acquaintance who served on an American CV (1970's) who tells me that his ship never had more than three coats of paint on any surface due to the cumulative weight. If a bulkhead had three coats of paint it would be scrapped clean before being repainting. To reinforce this point he said "remember the last time you picked you a full bucket of paint" . I said "da?" He said "does the bucket feel lighter when you're done painting?". I said "ah . . . dah". He asked "where do the paint go"? and again I said "over . . . da, da and da"? (USMC attempt at humor by mimicking Naval Spuds). The question to the modeling collective is as follows: For a 65,000 tone warship (aircraft carrier), how many tones of the ship weight is in paint, primer and/or an other type of preservative coating used by the US navy? Would also like to hear some responses for smaller ships such as BBs, BCs, CA,s (and for scale) MTBs. Regards, RhinoBones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: stillmo@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: Picture of Kirov-centered battlegroup wanted Hello Mr. Joe Poutre......glad to hear you are just a boppin with your model building of the battleship task group. Just thought I would let you know that you may wanna hold off on scratchbuilding your AOR......I know firsthand there is a very reputable company of which I am sworn to secrecy on pain of being drowned in boiling resin, that this unnamed company is to release a resin kit of an AOR, an unnamed ship that has seen active service for decades. Jim Shirley produced a modern USS CIMMARON of which I have a crude copy and maybe you can scrounge one up from somewhere as it will fit the time period I believe. Yours aye, RD Bean. (If I told ya anymore I would have to shoot you immediately.....!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Graeme Martin Subject: PE scale query I recently bought a Trumpeter kit in 1:550 scale of the Russian carrier Minsk. I know there is no photoetched railing in this scale but would 1:600 scale railing be OK rather than oversizing with 1:400? Comments please, Graeme Martin. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Ned Barnett Subject: For Sale - PT Boats At War Once again, enthusiasm triumphs over memory - I managed to buy two copies of PT Boats at War by Normal Polmar and Samuel Loring Morison - 160 pages of fascinating text and truly great photos. MBI publishes it at $19.95 - I'll sell it for $16, postage included to the first person to grab it. It is new - it is a great book - and it's yours for $16 ... Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Laurie Menadue" Subject: New web page Hi Just a note to let you know I have just put up my new web site: www.geocities.com/menaduemodels/index.html Several pages are simply headers for more to come, but if you find any problems, please advise me by return email regards & happy modelling, etc Laurie Search & Deliver Services in association with MENADUE MODELS www.geocities.com/menaduemodels/index.html Home of the MENAD Railroad Systems in Tropical BOWEN, Queensland, Australia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: courtney regan Subject: Some Naval Books I have for Sale Hello everyone and I'm glad to see that SMML is back up and running. Well I just want to give an opportunity to those out there who would like to check out some Naval related books I'm selling on eBay. You can see what I'm selling by following the link below. Here is what I got up; 1. A 1973 cruise book of the USS John F Kennedy 2. From Polaris To Trident: a technical & Political history of the United States Fleet Ballistic Missile Program. 3. Strike Able Peter- A great book that recounts the grounding of the USS Missouri in 1950. 4. Naval Shipbuilders Of The World--A history and survey of all major Shipyards around the world that has built Naval Warships; one of my favorite books, really interesting. Check the books out by going here; http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=zutv1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Model Ship Journal-Temporary "Foreign" Price Reduction Our "Traders" posting ran late in SMML regarding subscribing before 15 Sept. For SMMLies, we will extend the offer to Monday the 25th. Now for some good news. We want to have more exposure outside the United States and until 1 December 2000, we will be offering new subscribers a subscription price of $30.00 per year on ONE YEAR subscriptions only, surface post. That's a $15.00 per year savings off our regular $45.00 foreign subscription price. The sale price is also good for Canada, Mexico and Timbuktu, for that matter. To get the sale pricing you must advise us that you saw the posting in SMML or The Warship Web Page. Visa/Master Card checks accepted for this offer. E-mail orders using credit cards also accepted. Phone: 360-371-0290 Victor Baca Editor & Publisher MODEL SHIP JOURNAL www.modelshipjournal.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume