Subject: SMML VOL 1022 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 23:41:18 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Italian Subs and ice cream 2: Russian Battleships 3: Re: Essex Class 4: Electric Boat Wins $78 Million Contract for Virginia-class Submarine Work 5: Fire Queens 6: Re: USS Arizona by Tamiya 7: Re: Arizona 8: Hornet 9: Looking For Info on Army LT Tug 10: Hornet's pigeon coops and stern post 11: Re: Emden/Karlsruhe 12: Hornet 13: Udaloy Pictures 14: Displaying Full Hull Ships 15: SMS Konig 1:350 16: Re: Fire Queens 17: Re: What are Qeens? 18: Re: Goin to San Francsisco.....also! 19: A 1/350 Arizona from Tamiya 20: Tamiya 21: Re: Detail and Scale is gone? 22: Re: USS England's Good Luck 23: Re: Colour Matching 24: Lutjens in Alaska 25: Old TV Shows 26: "Scharnhorst" 27: Essex-class modifications 28: Queen Elizabeth as troopship in WW2 29: Missle boats 30: Congratulations and update 31: Re: Udaloy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts 1: IPMS/UK:Scaleworld 2000 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Cooper, Mike" Subject: Italian Subs and ice cream Dear SMMlies I see from a recent posting and a note from PSM-land that part of my I-58 query may be answered by the appearnce (over here???) of a new Tamiya kit. Did anyone have any thoughts about deck colours? Having put that to one side I'm looking at the Delphis/Regia Marina Foca class sub. They quote a scheme of light greyish green with chocolate brown blobs. Now, I don't mind my sub looking like a long thin portion of mint-choc-chip ice cream, but I'd like to be pretty sure that these colours were used before I start painting. I'd have thought light and dark grey would have ben more likely. I have read reference to this scheme in another italian resin sub kit which said it drew on an hard-to-interpret colour photo. Any idea? Mike Cooper Reading UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Russian Battleships I want to thank everyone who stepped forward with information about the Russian Battleship names. I'm still a little foggy on the proper spellings (sound's like a case of "who you're talking to") but with re-reading I think I've got the basic gist. My apologies for the delay in responding, but I've been sidetracked this past week with a winged thing (those stubs on a F-104 do count as wings don't they?) Derek "Tiger" Wakefield -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Essex Class James, Oy! is right, but you might want to make that 66 variants. According to "The Ships and Aircraft of the United States Fleet, Eighth Edition", in reference to the LAKE CHAMPLAIN... >> "She was slated for an SCB-125A refit in 1957; wound up with a -144" << Great list though! I've been stumped on the -144 for quite a while now. Thanks for clearing the fog. Derek "Tiger" Wakefield -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Electric Boat Wins $78 Million Contract for Virginia-class Submarine Work http://www.seawaves.com/Articles/Weapon_Systems/October2000/00100101.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Fire Queens Hi all My memory may be wrong but I seem to recall that fire queens were nozzles for delivering high pressure jets of water. I seem to remember that they sat on a post and had a ball at one end to allow for directional training. This is dredged up from the depths and so may not be accurate. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Re: USS Arizona by Tamiya Ned wrote an elouquent and well thought out piece about some benefits for Tamiya in putting out an Arizona. Next year will be the 60th anniversary of Pearl Harbor and there's always something magical about an anniversary that ends in a zero. A release timed for late-fall to early-winter to coincide with the anniversary date would no doubt aid in sales. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: PT191@aol.com Subject: Re: Arizona Ned: I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I think we should remember Pearl Harbor. To honor those who died there, in the service of their country, which is a honorable thing, we should remember Pearl Harbor and the rest of World War II to honor the veterans of that war and the servicemen who made the ultimate sacrifice. Your comments only go to prove what I have felt about the younger generations of the U.S. society. Hey, it's ancient history, we won .... get over it. They have no sense of history, no sense of what their fathers and grandfathers fought for, and why. In Britain, I watched with amazement little children in the Imperial War Museum knowing more about their "ancient history" than my own 16 year old nephew. What bothers me is the fact that he doesn't care about it. Recently, I did a book signing at the National PT BOATS, INC.'s convention, I was honored (and humbled) to meet many of the men served on PTs. They fought a war for freedom for a world. If they had not done what they did, people like me would certainly have been used for medical research or exterminated because, according to the thinking of the Aryan Race, I am not perfect. So, I applaude Tamiya for wanting to manufacture a kit of the USS ARIZONA ......... seeing a model is a great tool to teach someone about the past. T. Garth Connelly -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Hornet Ned, you are probably looking and the holders for the inflatable life rafts. We had them on the "Hawk" and every so often had to drag them out and inspect them and so on. I do not remember of the outer side of them drops down or if the were just expected to inflate as the ship sank. The thingy (not proper airdale talk) on the stern was for the pilots to use as a centerline when landing - I think it had yellow lights on it. One thing you might want to visit next time that I enjoy is the 2 ready rooms below deck, the Marine quarters and they have just opened up the sick bay which is really nice with the operating tables other compartments have the pharmacy, xray and so on. She is a big ship and it takes time to get her not only ready, but put back together. Mike NAVYDAZE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Felix Bustelo" Subject: Looking For Info on Army LT Tug Hello all, I am beginning to do some research to build the Iron Shipwright LT Army tug. I pretty sure that a lot of these tugs were sold to private companies and I would prefer to build this kit in a civilian livery. Specifically, this kit is of the 149 foot version of an LT. Anybody out there know of sources with photos of ex-Army LT tugs transferred to civilian use? Any help would be appreciated. TIA, Felix Bustelo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Hornet's pigeon coops and stern post From: Ned Barnett >> I have a question though - just below the flight-deck on the starboard side, there seemed to be a bunch of more-than-man-sized pigeon coups made of louvered slats (I have no idea what they really are - I'm trying to paint a word picture). What are they? << They _are_ overlarge pigeon coops, though for trained albatross. There was a secret program in the 1960s to use homing albatross. After the EMP effects ofnuclear weapons were discovered, a non-electronic long-range communication method was needed for ships at sea, especially the nuclear-armed carriers. Homing pigeons were tried, but couldn't cross the great distances necessary, so albatross were trained to fly to a specific base, carrying microfilm giving the ship's location, condition, and other important information. The program was dropped after the coops were installed in the Hornet. It was realized that there was no practical way for the ships to be contacted with orders if they'd been hit by EMP, and, more importantly it was hard to keep the albatrosses in flying condition, since if they were released from their coops for exercise, they immediately started for home. In the end, less than a dozen birds were successfully trained, and they were released into the wild, only to return to "their" bases repeatedly. The last one passed away back in 1992, and was buried at sea with full naval honors. >> Also, there was a vertical post running from the stern flight-deck overhang right down to just above the waterline at the stern. It has some vertical lights on it - but also this damned odd little perch where a sailor could stand and look at the wake being generated (probably the scariest place I can imagine being with the ship underway). Any ideas on why anybody would want to be 15-20 feet above the wake? << For the captain to waterski - the line would be hooked up to the post, and the captain would trail along behind the ship during flight ops. It was not solely for his entertainment; the location allowed the captain to watch landings, so he could advise and rate the pilots. Joe Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Emden/Karlsruhe The best book on the history of EMDEN is Gerhard Koops "Emden, Ein Name - fünf Schiffe" (Pub Bernard & Graefe 1983). It is in German and covers, among other things, the pre-war cruises of the third EMDEN. Apart from the first three ships, all light cruisers, it also has info on the two later frigares of that name. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Shirley Sachsen Subject: Hornet >> They have a lot of work to do, but they are doing a lot (that is clear) - few airplanes yet, but historically-significant ones, including an oddball Skyhawk in faux Blue Angels markings but also marked for a carrier ... very odd. << the story behind this A4 is that it was a school mascot that was adopted by the crew of the Ranger who painted it in the school's colors. >> I have a question though - just below the flight-deck on the starboard side, there seemed to be a bunch of more-than-man-sized pigeon coups made of louvered slats (I have no idea what they really are - I'm trying to paint a word picture). What are they? << those are liferaft racks--minus the rafts >> Also, there was a vertical post running from the stern flight-deck overhang right down to just above the waterline at the stern. It has some vertical lights on it - but also this damned odd little perch where a sailor could stand and look at the wake being generated (probably the scariest place I can imagine being with the ship underway). Any ideas on why anybody would want to be 15-20 feet above the wake? << that thing is related to the FLOLS, but I can't explain its actual purpose or use. any naval aviators on the list who could? >> Great docents, excellent tours, really cheap-looking linoleum (why did the Navy use linoleum, anyway?) and some surprisingly-interesting photos throughout the ship. << glad you liked your tour, as you said, we have a lot of work to do, but most of the improvements you saw (hangar bays, island, 2nd deck, flight deck) were done in a 3 month period in 1998. right now we're busy repainting the outer hull in preparation for winter. there aren't that many of us doing the work, which is why it's taking so long. if anyone on the list who lives near us wants to 'help save a carrier' come join us, we'd love to have you. s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Udaloy Pictures Ref. Jt. Mulder's request for photos of Russian Udaloy class ships. Steven Zaloga wrote the book, "Slava, Udaloy and Sovremenniy" published in1992 by Concord Publications. ISBN number is 962-361-034-3. This book is primarily composed of photographs and has extensive detail photos of these three classes of ships. Photo coverage is mostly Black & White, but there is an 8 page signature plus the outside covers in color. I picked mine up in a hobby shop about 8 months ago, so it should still be available. Good luck with your model. Victor Baca Moderl Ship Journal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Joe Costanzo" Subject: Displaying Full Hull Ships I may bite the bullet this Christmas and attempt a 1/350 resin ship. I am considering full hull, but one aspect I am concerned about is displaying them, I have no experience building a stand for a full hull ship i.e. posts or keel blocks etc. (for my old injection ships I just used the included stand). What are my options for display? What's the best method for the first time? And how are they done? Thanks in advance. Joe Costanzo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: SMS Konig 1:350 a) So far I have seen 3 photo etched sets for the Konig kit on the market. Can anyone comment which, if any, have railings with stanchions set at the correct intervals for specific decks and platforms. b) Which of the commerical Konig Class plans and drawings are the best and most detailed. c) Is the Koop/Schmolke reference book on this subject any good? Thanks Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: dlfowler@apple.com Subject: Re: Fire Queens Hello, I checked several issues of "Shipbuilder" and "ShipBuilder Anual" between 1910 and 1920 and the "Shipbuilding Encyclopedia" published in 1920 and found no references to fire queens. I talked to a couple of old salts and they thought that it might have been the portable fire extinguishing canisters used at that time. Some of them had tops that rather looked like crowns. Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Bruce Beveridge Subject: Re: What are Qeens? Thanks Brett, but the Britannic (II) did not have any sails. She was the third of the Olympic class liners commissioned for Hospital duty during W.W.I. The best I can think of, judging by the log entry, is that Queens are a name brand of fire extinguisher. does anyone have copies of old advertiser indexes from Engineering magazines? Bruce Beveridge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: stillmo@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: Goin to San Francsisco.....also! The big silver bird takes me tomorrow morning from the prairie flatland bathed in autumn glory to sunny (hopefully) northern California .... at long last my long summer of hard work is over and its vacation time.....spooled up the SF FW website last nite and it looks like 11 or 12 of the Navys Finest will be sailing under the GG bridge. It'll be great to see a coupla bird farms again, rocky coasts and blue water. Taking about 50 rolls of 36 exposure film, and will also be touring the Suisan Bay Reserve Fleet under the MARAD flag on Thursday. Lookout Kurt Greiner, the Jolly Canuck is on the way....lookin to hit some great hobby shops and book stores and see that lovely city on the bay. So nice to get away --got those credit cards paid off and they are all recharged--time to party.......hope the weather is great. yours aye, RD Bean -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Loren Perry Subject: A 1/350 Arizona from Tamiya I think Tamiya would be honoring all U.S. Navy veterans and Americans in general by producing a first-rate plastic kit of the USS Arizona. The only political sensitivity I've ever seen regarding plastic military modeling is the question of including swastikas in WW2 German kits. Such kits are produced by every industrialized country (including Revell of Germany) and while certain machines of the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht could easily be linked to atrocities (The Ju-87 Stuka, V-1 and V-2, etc.) there seems to be no problem selling these kits profitably around the world. After all, these are inanimate objects that represent an element of world history. The swastika may be considered by some to be a political statement, hene their deletion from some kits sold in Europe. The machines themselves are less likely to be regarded in the same light. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "O'Connor" Subject: Tamiya SMMLies- Would I build a Tamiya Essex, no matter what the era? YES!!! Would I build a Tamiya Arizona?-Probably.. I build 1/700 scale, but like most of us, I stray to the things I like,m no matter what scale. So go ahead, Mr. Tamiya, hear us- build them and we will buy..... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Detail and Scale is gone? >> Hi Rusty, [snip] Now that the ship has been scrapped, I doubt there will ever be a reprint of that title. Bert Kinzey << Leave it to Bert to get a detail wrong?! The AMERICA was scrapped??? When did this happen? Must have been about the time the ENTERPRISE got her third Sea Sparrow launcher! The AMERICA is fine and all in one piece. Last spring I saw her floating in the James River with numerous vessels, including a battleship, gyrene carriers (LPHs) and nuclear cargo ship, nearby, as I flew to SMML in Boston. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Kathleen Reid Subject: Re: USS England's Good Luck 1. For a detailed (but not mind-numbing) discussion of the intelligence background to England's "good luck", see John Prados' Combined Fleet Decoded (Random House, 1995) ISBN:0-679-43701-0 which is still readily available I believe. Additional details on the intelligence attack on the Japanese Sixth Fleet message that ultimately provided the locations of the subs England sank can be found in W.J. ("Jasper") Holmes' Double-Edged Secrets (USNIP, 1979). 2. England operated with two other DEs, USS George and USS Raby, while destroying the Ro boats that made up the "NA" line; it was the skill and professionalism of all three, though England accomplished all the sinkings, that led to this unprecedented success. Hope this helps. Cheers, John Reid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: dlfowler@apple.com Subject: Re: Colour Matching When it comes to colour matching with CYMK (Cyan, Yellow, Magenta, Black) to real world colours, it basically can't be done. The difficulty in reproducing colours accurately in any publication is that you are trying to mix three pure colours and black on a white background to give you a representation of the true colours hue and intensity and in truth, it can't possibly be done. The best you can hope is to come close. There is a six colour process but that is generally not available on low cost equipment. The other problem that you run into when using a computer is that the computers displays use transmitted light in an RGB (Red, Blue, Green) format. This gives a much wider range of colours than a CYMK process which relies on reflected light. If you want to match colours from a scanned object with a computer representation there are colour calibrators available but again, these represent a sizable investment. The last problem you will have when trying to scan from a print, and then print the scan is that no scanner will pick up the exact shades from the original image, no printer will ever produce the same shade you see on the screen and no two printers will ever produce the same colour when you compare the printouts. I have several fairly high end scanners, displays and printers and continue to experience these variabilities. Macintosh computers use a system called "ColorSync" which attempts to match colours across platforms. It works rather well with high end (professional) equipment but not so well with normal desktop equipment. Photoshop will allow you to adjust a number of the colour values so that you can come close to the original either on your display or your printer but I am afraid that that is the best you can hope for. Even if you had the CYMK values from the book's printer (I doubt that the authors would have this information available) you would not be able to match them on your computer. Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Millen, Alan R." Subject: Lutjens in Alaska I have a naval cover with a postmark (forget where, I'm at work) and cachet welcoming Lutjens and the Karlsruhe to that city while on a world tour. If I recall correctly, it's a west coast city. I can dig up a date when I get home tonight @ midnight, if you're interested. Maybe I will anyway. Alan R. Millen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "M & R Brown" Subject: Old TV Shows All this talk of old TV shows has got the memory working overtime. Did the BBC ever bring out videos of their "Warship" series from the mid 1970s? If so, where can you get them? The episodes were based on the life of a Leander called Hero. I think they used Phoebe. Michael Brown Sydney, Oz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "John Barratt" Subject: "Scharnhorst" People might be interested to hear that according to "Battle ship Bismarck" and "U-boat net" websites the wreck of "Scharnhorst" was located and filmed by a Norwegian TV expedition over the weekend. She is 300 metres down, but no information about condition has so far been released. They are apparently preparing a TV documentary to be shown this winter. Apparently there may be a bit more info. on some Norwegian websites for anyone who can speak the language. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: Jodie Peeler Subject: Essex-class modifications hi all -- James Corley wrote: >> YORKTOWN, 10, SH, SCB-27A, SCB-27C1, SCB-125, SCB-144 << Uhhh...Yorktown never received a -27C modernization. She remained a -27A until the end, hence why she became one of the first fully-converted Essexes to become a CVS, and why she decommissioned in 1970. I know this ship very well, and I will gladly consume my beret (you remember that beret from Atlanta in '99, right, James?) if she is a -27C.... :) Also, Yorktown never received a full -144 modernization. She *was* budgeted for it under FY66, but she had been on the line off Vietnam for a while and when the USN was finally able to schedule some yard time for her, the higher-ups reasoned that it wasn't a good idea to do that extensive a modification on a ship that would be decommissioned in FY70. (Also, since the Yorktown had been a trials ship for the ASCAC, or Anti-Sub Combat Action Center, in the early '60s, she wasn't in quite as much need as some others.) Thus she only received a partial modification. Most notably, Yorktown does not have the stem anchor or sonar dome. Someday I'll get around to doing a total cross-indexed list.... jodie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: Ken Hoolihan Subject: Queen Elizabeth as troopship in WW2 Hi All, I am looking for some help with my current model project, a conversion of the Airfix 1/600 Queen Elizabeth from post-war liner to WW2 troopship in a diorama setting. My prime reference is the book "Queen Elizabeth at War" which has heaps of small B&W photos. I have done most of the improvements and detailing required to the model and will soon be ready to put paint on plastic/brass. The period I have chosen to depict is April 1941 when she visited Sydney to carry a load of "diggers" off to war. At that time she sported a black hull and grey upperworks. My questions are, just what shade of grey is correct and were the wooden decks painted grey as well or left unpainted (sorry to raise the deck issue yet again). The photos are not definitive, at least to my eye. In one aerial photo, taken in bright sunlight judging from the shadows, the grey looks very pale and there is little or no contrast with the decks. Another photo (taken from sea level) gives the impression of medium grey upperworks but it may be simply a consequence of overcast conditions on the day or the exposure of the photo. Maybe some of the Aussie SMMLers have got the real facts and can help me out. Ken Hoolihan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: "Kerry G. Brown" Subject: Missle boats Hello All I've been reading your group here for a little while. I've learned a few things and had a few laughs, I was wondering if anyone has information on the little boats of little navies. I would appreciate any info or pointing in the right direction. Thanks Kerry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: "Lambert and Keel" Subject: Congratulations and update I too would reiterate all the congratulations passed to Australia for their presentation of the recent Olympics. Absolutely magnificent. Before, during and after, with everyone cheered to the utmost, no partisan treatment at all. No glitches that I saw. Very well done. It was nice to have our Smellies back too, you were sadly missed. I hope you both had a nice break. A quick update on recent queries. They were right when they said that I would not be attending our IPMS meet in November in my P.O.s uniform. (I passed it on when I was demobbed). (A £12 doeskin (No 1 with gold badges) uniform from our Chinese tailors aboard HMS Bulwark). I will be attending the show on the Saturday and if anyone likes to bring their Flower Book along I would be pleased to sign it for them. I can be contacted around the White Ensign stand. I look forward to meeting the ex Salem crowd from across the pond and any other smellies. Looking toward that date, I'm informed that there will be a mass of new photoetched 1/72 scale Flower detail on display for the first time at the stand of David Parkins. These are the ones rumoured to be in the pipeline. If they are anything like his prototype items that he showed me, they were well worth waiting for. Re the query about U.S. built Vosper M.T.B's supplied to Russia during WW II, I have a two sheet set of drawings from official plans in my plans lists. L/S/57/A-B details MTB 723 of 1944/45. Since my return from your side of the pond I have been doing original research up North in Glasgow and Barrow in Furness. I now have a mass of new Flower Class material, as well as original drawings on Tribal class destroyers, River class Twin Screw Corvettes and Loch class frigates. All to be redrawn and added to my lists as time permits. Yours "Aye" John Lambert Hi John, That research sounds great. I'm sure many SMMLies will now more than ever, wish that you live long & prosper ;-). Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: Bergschöld Pelle Subject: Re: Udaloy >> At this moment I am building a Russian Udaloy frigate.... But cannot find any photo's of this ship... Can you help me??? << Get the "Slava, Udaloy & Sovremennyy" from Concorde publishing. Tremendeous photography! Otherwise, try www.google.com and search for "Udaloy" and "destroyer". There are quite a few pics online. BR Pelle SWE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mark Cuevas Subject: IPMS/UK:Scaleworld 2000 Hello All Is there going to be a "Smmellie" get together at Telford this year? Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume