Subject: SMML VOL 1025 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 22:16:18 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: upholder 2: USS Texas, Prinz Eugen 3: Kids today 4: Good search engine for researching ships 5: Hornet/Oriskany 6: Re: Tamiya offending US? I don't get it 7: Re: Models in Museums 8: Re: Tamiya Response 9: Re: HMS Upholder 10: Correction 11: Re: Mr. Snyder: That paint chipping... 12: Re: USS NASHVILLE 13: Yorktown FRAM II refit 14: Re: Tamiya Essex 15: USS Wisconsin 16: Classic Warships USS Pennsylvania 1/700 17: H.M.S Montclare 18: Re: Displaying Full Hull Ships 19: USS Arizona 20: The Warship Series 21: WW2 Anecdotes about HMS Howe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Chris Rogers Subject: Re: upholder I think John Lambert is the one to answer this one but a lot of brit subs where light sea grey upper dark sea grey deck/casing top and a blackish like substance on the saddle tanks and half way up the hull chris OZ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: rweilach@mindspring.com Subject: USS Texas, Prinz Eugen Has anyone seen the USS Texas and DKM Prinz Eugen 1/700 by Samek and can comment on them? Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Rod Dauteuil Subject: Kids today Hello, I know my comments will seem off topic, but read through and you'll see how it comes back to modeling. It's true, kids today (and many young adults) know nothing about recent history, world wars fought, their purpose, and individual sacrafices. And all this comes during the supposed "information age"? Sometimes you'll see a late night television host (U.S.) going out on the street and asking people simple questions about history, and the responses are ridiculous. Young people just don't know, and don't care that they don't know. They don't know about trench warfare almost 100 years ago in France, dreadnought battleships, Pearl Harbor, the Blitz, Inchon Harbor, or what Da Nang is. We've been exposed to it our whole lives. Remember "Victory at Sea"? What about all the old war movies? But the sad part is ask them about those stupid pokemon things or the latest game boy gadget, and they can tell you all about it. We, for the most part, model instruments of war. Warships, warplanes, armor, etc. When there's no war, these instruments are not part of everyday life. Take for example the Gulf War. Images of jets, warships, troops and helicopters were broadcast on TV almost every night. We all know what the Scud missile was, and how the F117's made their attacks on Baghdad. How about Bosnia? The world came to know who Captain Scott O'Grady in his downed F16. I think as a result of that exposure, more young people were enlightened. It's worth mentioning that car modeling still appears to be thriving. Ever take a look at the new AMT/Ertl or Revell-Monogram catalogs? Always new cars coming out, NASCAR models, and auto accessories. But when was the last time R/M issued a completely new ship model? Maybe it was the Revell Sea Shadow? They are content to re-issue old ships, just to project the image of a well-rounded line. So to sum it up, I think modeling is a product of the environment, and current events. Times will change, and so will the interests of young people. RD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Good search engine for researching ships For those of you who are researching something, be it a ship, a shipyard, a builder, or really anything else, you may be interested in one of the very best Internet search engines. It's free, it's quick, it's easy, and it's really not a single search engine at all, rather it's a conductor or master which uses many search engines to find what you're looking for. Without laughing now, try Dogpile.com at: http://www.dogpile.com/index.html Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Member, Nautical Research Guild Louisiana Naval War Memorial - USS KIDD, DD 661 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Shirley Sachsen Subject: Hornet/Oriskany for those who have been interested in the fate of the Oriskany here's a tidbit that occurred yesterday aboard Hornet: Yesterday we were visited by two Chinese gentlemen from the Beijing Pilots Assn. one of whom had flown for the Nationalist Chinese during WWII over the Hump. The purpose of their visit was to buy the Hornet and bring her back to China as a 'museum/community resource' and they were prepared to pay on the spot $5mil for her. Turns out that this group was the same group who had attempted to purchase the ship in 1995 when we (the Aircraft Carrier Hornet Foundation) were first trying to obtain the ship. Needless to say, we did not accept the check, and they were very disappointed that the ship was not for sale. Their next 'target' is the Oriskany. It is rumored that if they are successful in acquiring Oriskany, the ship will be completely demilled and rendered inoperable: arresting gear, catapults, and engineering, essentially turning her into a useless hulk before letting the Chinese tow her away. Also, they reported on the condition of the Minsk: as visitors to the ship wandered over the flight deck, the 'ski-jump' portion of the deck visibly was flexing under the weight. s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Tamiya offending US? I don't get it I have a feeling I may get chopped up for this post, but I just don't understand. Why on Earth would Tamiya producing a model of the Arizona offend us as US citizens? Hell, they produce models of lots of US ships, planes and tanks they sunk or blew up during the war and nobody complained about that. I understand the feelings that survivors and the relatives of those who died on the Arizona have regarding the attack on Pearl Harbor, but no one that (I heard about) complained when models of the Hornet, Indianapolis, etc., etc., etc., were produced by Japanese manufacturers. Why doesn't any gripe about the red Chinese producing models of modern aircraft carriers? Like I said, I just don't understand why the Japanese would fear a backlash from the US concerning the Arizona. In my humble opinion, with respect to all servicemen who died during the wars, it would seem to be a salute to those who served on the Arizona. Not an insult that a former enemy of the US would produce a fine replica of that great ship. What has suprised me is why Revell (now owned or partially owned by GERMANS) or some other US company (excluding the resin guys) have not produced a new, more accurate model of the Arizona? If the Japanese, Germans, Vietnamese or Martians will produce a large scale, accurate model of the Arizona, I say do it. No one else will. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ Order online with Visa & Master card (US only) "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: Re: Models in Museums Shirley Sachsen wrote: >> but before people run off and start building models for museums, please inquire of the museum first. Museums are moving away from models (SF Maritime is an example--the majority of their models are now in storage in their library building), and others have Curatorial Master Plans that lay out specific guidelines for displays, their content and location as Hornet does.............. this is not to say we don't want models, but they have to fit with our exhibit needs and fall within our guidelines--otherwise we'll begin to have exhibits that look like garage sales. if this is true with us, I'm sure this is true for other museums, therefore it is best to consult the museum first rather than show up on the pier one day with a stunning model only to be told that the museum in question has no need/interest/space for it. << Shirley is right for the most part. We on the other hand have a little different philosiphy. We encourrage modelers to loan us their model rather than donate it outright. This I believe gives us better quality models as the modeler can have it back whenever he wants it. Just knowing he can have it back makes him less reluctant to part with an expensive model that he spent several hundred hours on. We have a pretty loose criteria and have attracted some really great models and some not so great. Bottom line for us is the kids love the ship models. They some interest in model building and that is a very good thing. So if anyone feels like putting their model in a ship model exhibit, drop me a note. We are nearly at the point where we can do rotating exhibits with different themes. Well, once I finish restoring a brass 1/48 USS Saint Paul (sigh). John Frohock USNSM USS Salem Model Dept -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: rweilach@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Tamiya Response Here is my response from Tamiya: Customer Service wrote: >> Mr. Weilacher, Thank you for your email regarding future Tamiya kits. I will forward your comments onto our product manager, where they will review your email. As always, we at Tamiya thank you for your comments and suggestions. We truly appreciate your continued interest in our products. Caron Cunningham Customer Service Representative Tamiya America, Inc. << Hi gang, It looks like there is a standard email response from Tamiya, when requests are sent in. Lets not clutter up the list with the same response from them over & over. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "David Ian Moore" Subject: Re: HMS Upholder Glenn Unsure of pre 42, but the Almark book on RN camo by Hodges give standard home scheme for RN subs as B30(light sea grey) vertical surfaces except White bow,tower area and stern panels with the saddle tanks in PB10 (bright mid blue) see the RN chips. The periscope standards guns, rails and inside bridge bulwark were to be white. Foreign service scheme was to substitute G45, B20 and Black. There are several late war photos of HMS Unseen at Digby NS as an AS trainer, in the new Canadian Sumarine Service in review by Perkins. The Colours are difficult to interpret but look like mid grey overall with dark tanks and below w/l Only visible white is the large P51 pennant # full height on tower Ian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Jana & Pavel" Subject: Correction Dear John Baumann, In regards to your post on Pol Models based in the U.K. I have to take you to task in your glaring error that you wrote up! Czechoslovakia no longer exists! Please note that the creation of that Country was in 1918, by joining the Kingdom of Bohemia, then under the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Slovak Nation then still part of Hungary. The 1938 to 1945 era I will not go into here. 1992 was when the unfortunate separation was done and the Czech Republic and Slovak Republic came about. 8 years latter I am still astounded by the number of people who have not noticed this. Thank you Regards Pavel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Mr. Snyder: That paint chipping... Mr. Koopman wrote: >> Dear Mr. Snyder: Ahhh yes! That was one of the things I remembered most about that tour, and I keep forgetting to ask you "When will we be seeing the 1812 USN Chipset #1, Mr. Snyder!". Thats 0.04 cents of our taxpayer money I saw you slipping into your pocket, and this taxpayer wants to know when we'll be seeing a return on that investment. ;-) And yes, your propably lucky (and more likely I'm probably lucky) that Cmdr. Foster hasn't noticed those 1 innch square bare spots on the gun-deck knees, overhead, and spar-deck bullwarks yet! << Dear Mr. Koopman: Those were MY taxpayer dollars I was retrieving. Before the 1812 set can be gotten ready, we'll have to make a return visit, identify the extant original sections of CONSTITUTION, and sample them. And please inform CDR Foster that he has areas of peeling paint that need to be chipped, feathered, and repainted. People keep knocking chips loose from the peeling areas and it will only get worse. John Snyder -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: USS NASHVILLE >> I'm looking for camouflage scheme for USS Nashville (CL-43) - Ms. 16 Thayer System. I'll be grateful for any help. << Sorry Damian, but NASHVILLE was not in Ms.16. That bit of misinformation stems from incorrect photo-interpretation by Stefan Terzibatschitsch in his US Cruiser book. She was actually in Ms.32, IIRC. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Jodie Peeler Subject: Yorktown FRAM II refit hello all.... James Corley wrote, regarding the USS Yorktown: >> You are both right and wrong. I will admit is was an error on my part that she did not receive the SCB-27C, but she did get upgraded to the FRAM II standard in the FY66 budget, being carried out in her drydock period of 7April to 5August 1967. She did have the stem hawsepipe installed, but I have only seen the hole there, never an anchor. I cannot comment on the sonar, but since she did serve as a CVS and has the hawsepipe, I would have to assume that at least the dome was installed. << Uhhh...not to be a contrarian, James, but in almost two decades of knowing the Yorktown, having visited her numerous times, having done a decade's research on her, having examined and photographed that ship's bow up close (from within about 20-30 feet), and having been in that ship's forecastle (and having examined the bow of the Hornet -- which has a stem anchor -- up close, as well), I have seen no evidence of a stem hawsepipe -- certainly not a stem hawsepipe of the sort that was installed aboard the FRAM units. The Yorktown *may* have internal provisions for a stem hawse, but I have not seen anything resembling a hole in her bow other than the little hole (for a towline, I believe) that I believe all the SCB-125 Essexes received during their -125 modernizations. Here's an example (the Wasp, c. 1964) with a stem hawse and anchor: http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021810.jpg Note that the stem hawsepipe and anchor are roughly on the same level as those on either side of the bow, while the hole for a towing chain/hawser (also present on the Wasp) is somewhat above that same level. The stem hawsepipe is MUCH larger than the hole for the towing line. Now, compare the Wasp's bow to these shots of the Yorktown in 1968-69, after her partial FRAM refit: http://www.mindspring.com/~raisingirl/cvs10-1.jpg http://www.mindspring.com/~raisingirl/cvs10-2.jpg http://www.mindspring.com/~raisingirl/cvs10-3.jpg http://www.mindspring.com/~raisingirl/cvs10-4.jpg According to Robert Sumrall's "Warship's Data -- USS Yorktown," one of the few books to get the story down accurately: "The Yorktown was schedule for a FRAM overhaul under FY66 funding. Beacuse of her deployment schedule to Vietnam with the Seventh Fleet, she did not become available for overhaul until February 1967. She entered PSNS on 24 February. Very early during the overhaul period it was decided that she would be retired in FY70 and therefore she did not receive the full FRAM modernization. Most notably, the SQS-23 sonar, aircraft data link, automated CIC and an upgraded electronics suite were not included in her seven and a half month overhaul." Now, whether the sonar dome itself was installed, I do not know because I have not seen photos of the ship's final underwater configuration. (I personally doubt it.) But I can attest from my own (numerous) observations and research that the ship does not have a stem hawse, at least not an external one. On at least three separate occasions I have been on boats within 20 feet of her bow and it looks the same as it did in 1956. jodie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Keith T Bender Subject: Re: Tamiya Essex Hi SMMLies, Sometimes a person comes up with an idea or just a simple question. That is all it was when I asked to be filled in on the Tamiya Essex rumor. I am very happy to be the one to start this Essex thing going around. I am not surprised at the outcome of it. It has been two weeks now and we're still kicking it around. I kind of knew most of us would like to see an Essex in 1:350. Lets keep E mailing them and being a pest by not going away and maybe they will get a clue. Essex please!!!, I'll take an arm full of them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: DILIANE@aol.com Subject: USS Wisconsin If anyone happens to be interested, there is a web connection to Norfolk Va for the USS Wisconsin. Try: norfolk.va.us/home.htm. This gets you into a site with the latest news, a chance to sign the guest book, and it would cost you $15 for a membership. Enjoy! Jim Campbell Chippewa Falls, WI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: rweilach@mindspring.com Subject: Classic Warships USS Pennsylvania 1/700 Does anyone have, or seen Classic Warships 1/700 USS Pennsylvania? I want to know if the kit depicts the battleship before or after the installation of the 8 5"/38 dual mounts (and the quad 40mm mounts). Thanks, Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Wannsee" Subject: H.M.S Montclare Hi Everybody, This is my first posting to the list, my name is Martin Foley I am a Military Historian and run my own environmental practice in the UK & South Africa I advise on Military contamination & also ships........... My first question: I have a crest from H.M.S. Montclare does anybody have this ships history and can I get a colour photo of the crest ? Many thanks in advance Martin Foley I can be also contacted off list at naval@wannsee.co.za -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: RhinoBones@aol.com Subject: Re: Displaying Full Hull Ships Here is an alternative to the sculpted brass stand offs . . . my local hardware store (True Value) has a small selection of lath turned wooden dowels which look very much in shape as the lamp fixture bass pieces. These wooden stand offs have male ends which fit nicely into match drilled holes in both the ship and the base. My store has them in two heights (1 1/4" and 1 3/4") which provides a good match with 1:150 thru 1:600 scale. I would expect that most hobby/craft type stores would carry similar stand offs. I recently used the 1 3/4" wood stand offs to mount a USS Oregon and was pleased with the results. Both the stand offs and base have the same dark hard wood finish which gives the viewer the same color tones from the base to the hull. Looks nice to me. Best thing is that the wood stand offs cost about $0.35 a piece whereas the brass pieces cost about $3.00 each. No doubt about it . . . the brass has a quality look, and for show quality models brass is the way to go. But, if like me, your ships are for your personal pleasure, wood might be a reasonable alternative. One last point. At my local store the brass lamp parts did not have common sized threads . . . in stead of having 1/4 28 threads they had an odd threading of 1/4 27. This made it almost impossible to find the attaching hardware needed to make the installation. Regards, RhinoBones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Robert Fish" Subject: USS Arizona Now regarding the supporting the making a 1\350 scale model of the Battleship this came right from Tamiya's customer's service rep; If you really want to build the USS Arizona Tom Harrison of tomsmodelsworks, sells a great 1\350 scale Arizona resin, Kit, full \or\half~ Hull with PE frets, and has very good prices for the work, that's my input~~LETS Support our OWN Scale Model Makers enjoy the hobby, contact tom at tomsmodelworks@worldnet.att.net or go to his website >> From: Customer Service Subject: RE: USS Arizona Mr. Fish, Thank you for your suggestions, and photos in your email. We appreciate all of Tamiya's ship series enthusiasts. At this time, we do not have any plans to produce a USS Arizona kit. I will however, forward your email onto our product manager. You may want to consider purchasing the Tamiya 2000 catalog, if you don't already have one. The catalog does have detailed color pictures of the Tamiya 1/700 and 1/350 ship series. The catalog does have detailed photos of the 1/350 US Battleship BB-62 New Jersey, and US Battleship BB-63 Missouri. I would be happy to mail, or fax you a photo copy of the New Jersey, and Missouri. Please let me know via email, with your address, or fax number, if you would like this mailed to you. The Tamiya 2000 catalog is an 87 page, vividly colored showcase, of currently available product. The catalog shows exciting, realistic pictures of our detailed, and precise available models, and kits. Tamiya products must be "seen to be believed", with their realism, and excellent quality. The catalog features available plastic models, radio controlled vehicles, military miniature and ship series, educational series models, publications, along with finishing supplies, such as tools and paints. This catalog covers all Tamiya products currently available, and is an excellent overall product guide. The 2000 Tamiya Catalog #64273, is available for $7.00. Please call us at (800) TAMIYA-A, if you wish to order a catalog. To purchase, or obtain pricing on any product, other than the Tamiya catalog, you do need to go through an authorized Tamiya dealer. To locate a dealer in your area, please go to, http://www.tamiya.com/america/ta.htm. If you have any difficulty locating a particular Tamiya item, you may want to purchase through a mail order company. You can locate mail order company information in "Fine Scale Modeler Magazine". This magazine can be purchased at any hobby shop, or bookstore. Thank You, Caron Cunningham Customer Service Representative Tamiya America, Inc. << Hi Robert, I agree, we should support our own model makers, in which case I can recommend OzMods, High Planes, Redroo, Aussie Decals, etc. WTIC Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "M & R Brown" Subject: The Warship Series The UK Warship series was a BBC production. Someone has just lent me a book from the series written by an Ian Mackintosh and Anthony Coburn. The book was published by Arrow Books in 1973 in collaboration with the BBC. I have sent an email to the Beeb but as yet no reply. Michael Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: WW2 Anecdotes about HMS Howe Tony, We don't often get well-told and first hand stories of WW2 naval adventures - thanks for sharing yours. It's fascinating that you were aboard the HMS Howe when the photo at: http://worldbattleships.homestead.com/HOWE.html was taken. I urge all SMMLies who haven't seen this photo to have a look at it, while reading Tony's story. Tony's story (from SMML 1024) makes the photo much more interesting. The Howe running into the bank and scaring the gunners would make a great diorama! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume