Subject: SMML VOL 1058 Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:09:30 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Television News @ nationalgeographic.com 2: War Daddy & Ross Tour 3: Baddest BB 4: Re: Celebrity Veterans 5: Re: Powerful footage in Yorktown program 6: RAN Colours 7: Re: What did you do in the war, Daddy? 8: Powerful footage in Yorktown program 9: USS Saratoga CV-3 10: Airfix Iron Duke 11: Re: Celebs 12: Ballard search 13: Jimmy Stewart 14: Nichimo kits in Italy 15: Re: Bits to do with battleships 16: Re: David Niven and others 17: U-505 18: Celebrities at War 19: Re: Bomb footage from National Gegraphic 20: Re: Television Program on U505 21: French Magazines 22: Re: Powerful footage in Yorktown program 23: Re: Tom Detweiler - more hauntings 24: Re: HMCS HAIDA CLOSED? 25: Celebs, and what did you do in the war daddy 26: RAM launcher on the DAVID RAY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Flagship Models now accepts Visa & MasterCard world wide -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Bruce" Subject: Television News @ nationalgeographic.com After watching this Program about the Battle of midway 1942 and the sinking of all the Japanese carriers, What this message is about, Is colour of the US Navy Carriers decks where navy blue now what shade? who knows, also the decks of the Japanese decks were bright yellow, with a large meatball, painted forward, on the flight deck, very easy to see at 12000 ft, according to former US Navy pilots, on board, Robert Ballard ship, also showing USS Yorktown over 3 miles down, very good program, CNBC I had to search for this page, its not even listed unless you hunt for older TV listings\programs enjoy. http://www.nationalgeographic.com/midway/index.html http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tv/press/990318.html Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Ian MacCorquodale" Subject: War Daddy & Ross Tour Hi Group, RE: What did you do in the war Daddy? My father joined the RCNVR in 1941 at the age of 14 (Fibbed about his age), he was trained as a weapons rating and served in the Atlantic, primarily on Tribal Class Destroyers, participating in many convoy's to England and the Murmansk run. He was present during the sinking of the Scharnhorst. Very seldom would he speak of his experiences, other than once when he recounted pulling merchant sailors and U Boat crews covered in oil out of the drink. He got out shortly after wars end, but his love for the Sea drew him back and he rejoined RCN in 1947. He then served until 1974 when he retired from the Navy and joined the Canadian Coast Guard in SAR ships. After an accident on board CCGS Alert, he was forced to give up the Sea. He stayed close to his ships by working in the Dockyard at the Ship Repair Unit until his untimely death in 1986. He instilled in me a deep and lasting love for Warships, and the Utmost respect for those that sail them...... Lest we forget.... Speaking of ships, the USS Ross ddg-71 tour is up at: http://www.geocities.com/macmodels/aerial.html Consisting of three pages...Aerial, Dockside and on board shots...What an incredible ship! Cheers, and great thread! Ian http://www.geocities.com/macrachael/ Mac's Naval Photography -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Joel Labow Subject: Baddest BB It was not my intention to start a 'flame war' and this will be my last posting on this subject. With regards to Chris' assertion that "You're obviously not familiar with historical research techniques and institutions of higher learning", I fear that 20+ years on faculty at three such institutions has made me all too familiar with the art of the academic put-down! I simply found the "data and assumptions on the table" approach of the Nihon Kaigun site a refreshing change from the irritable ex cathedra pronouncements which often dominate this sort of discussion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Mark Shannon" Subject: Re: Celebrity Veterans I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but I do believe Rex Harrison was an Aide-de-camp to Air Vice Marshall Keith Park during the Battle of Britain. It apparently raised a stink with BoB veterans' groups when the movie was being made in the 60's, because Harrison had been slated to play on of the Air Marshals, but bowed out. The rumors had it that he had been sacked because the script leaned toward the critics of Dowding and Park, and complained. I think he just read the script and recognized a UXB waiting to go off. Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Poore, Devin" Subject: Re: Powerful footage in Yorktown program When the bomb hit the deck, the blast was so powerful it literally bounced the aircraft about 12" off the deck. It was obvious the Yorktown was traveling at high speed to port because when the aircraft left the deck it "took flight" and bounced sideways to starboard. It bounced three times until it went over the side of the ship!--- I was all set to say that this was probably footage from Enterprise during one of the Guadalcanal area naval battles from late '42, but then I seem to remember that this aircraft was a TBD? If so, then it could only be Yorktown (or possibly Lexington, as they were the only two carriers hit carrying those aircraft). If the aircraft was an SBD, then it was Enterprise from one of the later battles, there are several pictures I have seen of an SBD hanging in her gun galleries before being shoved over the side; eyewitness accounts from Enterprise describe just this event, while I have never read anything of the sort in the Yorktown recounts. I have the Yorktown special on DVD, so I'll look again this Friday when I'm off for Veterans Day (yes, I know it's on Saturday, but I gave them 6 years, so my company can give me one day). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Cooper, Mike" Subject: RAN Colours Dear Smmlies Way back (not outback) I did some checking on RAN colours, so the note about an Aussie Standard was really interesting. Two things occur to me 1/ We've found that Aussie standards for tank paints tend to parrallel BS, so the link between the two is fascinating. It's difficult to be certain from FS references, but there are clear similarities. Hence an Aussie colour - lets say "vehicle grey" - can turn out to be well known by a British designation (in this case probably SCC5 "Light Mud" from BS587 of 1942) There do seem to be some unique Aussie colours, but often the name rather than the colur seems to change. Hence too, the colours referred to for RAN could be versions of well known RN colours. Any chance of a reference to the doc. saying that they corrolate with BS? 2/ The Aussie War Memorial sent me a 1943 order describing colours to be used for ships. It uses the familiar "B30, B15 etc" vocabulary, although it gives some interesting descriptions. Should I transcribe this for SMMLies? My overall impresssion from photos in (chiefly) the range of books from Topmill Pty publishers has been that with the exception of olive green Army craft the tonal range on RAN ships can be explained by RN colours. However, this said some Bathurst seen darker than the contemporary RN tones - maybe its just a shift darker? So, althoughthe RAN uses diffrent colours today, my experience suggest that rather than assume a diffrent range of tones for WW2 we should interpret any Aussie standards interms of the contemporay British ussage. If this doesn't work - and we'd need to look at chips - then we'd have to satrt looking a a diffrent range of paint colours, or start looking at the use of USN tones. Nice to hear too, by the way, that paint arrived pre-mixed as this is a point that has taken us a long time to get through to armour modellers. Mike Cooper Reading UK - Bright and cold. Hi Mike, Methinks the answew to the above query about transcription will be a resounding: YES PLEASE!! ;-) Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: What did you do in the war, Daddy? My Father joined the Navy on 27 May 1945, as soon as he graduated from high school. After going through boot camp at Great Lakes, he was stationed in the Pacific aboard the USS Sabine, AO-25. He rode through "Halsey's Typhoon" and stated more than once that he was glad he wasn't on a destroyer during that storm. He was mustered out in 1946 due to the war's conclusion. Both of my Uncles were too young to enlist during the war. Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Powerful footage in Yorktown program If I'm not mistaken, that footage is actually of the Enterprise under attack at Eastern Solomons several months later. The explosion killed the man operating the camera, and the damage from that bomb was enormous belowdecks. Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Craig R Bennett Subject: USS Saratoga CV-3 Hi Guys Does any one know if the USS SARATOGA CV-3 in it's modified bridge configuration has windows or portholes on the 3rd level bridge just below the deck with the range finder and mast. I'm not sure and references aren't clear. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Wannsee" Subject: Airfix Iron Duke Hi Having just ordered a Airfix Iron Duke from Kingkits in Telford UK and got it within 3 days for just £7.99 + post + Packing I thought it worth letting it be known that Kingkits still have plenty in stock they have a web site at www.kingkit.co.uk (No I do not have any connection with them) Still on the subject of Iron Duke I am looking for any photo's on the web showing the Starfish can anybody point me in the right direction? By the way as a new member to this list what are Cheesy Poofs ?? and can I use them to make better models!!!!!!!! Regards Martin Foley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Subject: Re: Celebs Well, the celeb I was trying to remember was Neville Brand (thanks to the many who emailed me on that). And, he didn't "win" the MOH, it was the Silver Star (4th most decorated US serviceman in WWII). And he wasn't in the Pacific but Europe. Other than those minor details, I had everything else correct :) Oh, celeb sport stars - Moe Berg was a cather with the Detroit Tigers. He WAS in the OSS and did drop into France (And I still recall reading somewhere about David Niven that he was also in the OSS, although some have disagreed - maybe another Brand fantasy on my part). But, I am sure about Berg as I'm a Tiger fan (that's a baseball team for those not living in the USA). Kevin Wenker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Ballard search Bob Ballard is currently at Pearl Harbor looking for midget submarines. Burl Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 808-263-6087 buzz@aloha.net A historical interpretation company. Visit our web sites at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ and http://www.PacificHistory.net "He's supposed to be dead. This is vexing. I am terribly vexed." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Jimmy Stewart >> Jimmy Stewart (who?, never mind) on the other hand was a bomber pilot. Ted Williams (baseball) flew fighters in Korea. << >> Jimmy Stewart also stayed in the Reserves after active duty, and obtained the rank of General. SAC is still my favorite Jimmy Stewart movie. << Stewart was also a model builder! Of the old balsa and tissue school. Burl Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 808-263-6087 buzz@aloha.net A historical interpretation company. Visit our web sites at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ and http://www.PacificHistory.net "He's supposed to be dead. This is vexing. I am terribly vexed." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "enrico_villa@libero.it" Subject: Nichimo kits in Italy Hallo to everybody! Does any of the Italian guys here have an idea of where it is possible to find Nichimo kits in Italy? Mail order from the US is pretty expensive and I love going around browsing hobby shops... Enrico -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Re: Bits to do with battleships Chris Langtree writes: >> the problem with the combined fleet model is that it rather reads like the Furishita's Fleet (have I got that right?). The combined fleet model relies on dubious analysis methods and simplifies its subject. << I think that the system that is used on the Combined Fleet site is absolutely fine becuase it DOES simplify a complicated subject!!! It seems to me that "legends in their own minds" who attempt to overcomplicate matters with their inane and pompous attempts to put down folks who contribute more than hot air to the hobby and history of naval operations need to lighten up and loosen the old sphincter! And as far as the "overating: of US armor, how many US capital ships with that overated armor were sunk in ship to ship combat??? How many were put out of action by one salvo??? HMMMM....can't recall any...but then I probably don't apply the correct scientific methods in searching for that old black cat...... Rant mode off, back to modeling... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: MGross1352@aol.com Subject: Re: David Niven and others I believe that David Niven served in a commando unit during the war. Prior to becoming an actor he had been a regular officer but he left the regiment (I read his autobiography about 10-12 years ago) at the request of the Colonel after an unappreciated practical joke. As I recall he did see combat as well as doing movies when he was available. Sterling Hayden, who some of the older fellows, like me, will recall (he was the police captain Al Pacino shot in the Godfather) was an OSS operative in the Med. Walter Matthau, who just passed away, was an mechanic in the 8th airforce and his commanding officer was Jimmy Stewart. Ted Williams the ball player, served in WW II as well as Korea. He is said to have had the best results on the Marine Corps. eye exam ever achieved, which explains why he was the last guy to hit over .400. Another marine corps. pilot was Johnny Carson's sidekick Ed McMahon. Johnny Carson served in the navy in WW II as did Don Rickles. This could go on and on but I suggest the USNI books on the subject which have been mentioned by a number of others are a great source. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Phil M. Gollin" Subject: U-505 The Discovery Channel may have told most of the story, but not all of it; In his second volume "Hitler's U-Boat War - The Hunted, 1942-1945", Clay Blair states that ; "When Washington received news of the capture, it was thunderstruck and deeply concerned ........... Admiral King was so furious at Gallery for possibly jepardizing the Allied mastery of Enigma that he threatened to court-martial him" and also; "Aware of Gallery's overweening thirst for publicity Admiral King admonished him to lie low and to absolutely seal the lips of the three thousand sailors and airmen in the Task Group" (Actually, I'm a bit loath to quote from his book, as although it is voluminous, it is rather dated in its historiography, depends much too much on secondary sources and is extremely unbalanced in its analysis of both German and Allied actions). Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Phil M. Gollin" Subject: Celebrities at War Don't forget the "founders" of decent modern humour - "The Goons" (Spike Milligan, Harry Secombe, Peter Sellers and Michael Bentine) For the un-initiated, "The Goons" begat the Cambridge Footlights review that gave rise to "Beyond the Fringe" and "That Was the Week That Was" They begat a later Cambridge Footlights which gave rise to "I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue", "At last the 1948 Show", "The Goodies" and of course "MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS". Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Dave Edgerly" Subject: Re: Bomb footage from National Gegraphic Rusty, I believe the incredible gootage of the bomb knocking the Aircraft off the deck was from the Enterprise,CV6. I, of course, could be wrong but it sure looked like the sequence of stills I,ve seen in various histories of the Enterprise. I believe, also, that the phtographer was killed during the filming of the action. But please correct me if I,m wrong. Dave Edgerly MSG, USA (ret) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Vincent Mccullough" Subject: Re: Television Program on U505 Rusty, If you think you OD'd on television, you missed a bet last night. I also watched the U505 program on the Discovery channel, but BEFORE that, on the History Channel, they ran part of a four part series entitled "The Battle History of the Navy," followed by a program on the Intrepid. I fell asleep before the Ballard program came on, otherwise I'd have been at it for AT LEAST 6 hours. BTW, the "Battle History" series is not bad, and will be re-running this weekend. Part 1 covers from the Revolution to the beginning of the 20-th century, part 2 covers the from the beginning of the century through roughly the middle of WW2 (it stops before the invasion of the Philippines). Episode 3 (on tonight and repeating over the weekend) covers the remainder of WW-2 up to (and perhaps including) Vietnam, and the last part looks at the modern navy, including the Gulf War. Go to the History Channel's site for listings. Vince McCullough -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "John Rule" Subject: French Magazines While in France, last week, I picked up some magazines which I thought I'd mention. Marines & Forces Navales #69: This magazine appears to be published every two months and has a cover price of 49 francs (about $7 US). It is a glossy magazine of 81 pages. There are articles with excellent photographs, many of which are colour. The first article is about the modern French frigate Le Bihan. The second article concerns mine warfare during and after the Gulf War. For US modellers there is an excellent two page photograph of a semi-submersible heavy lift ship SUPER SERVANT 3 underway carrying 3 US minesweepers (Agile Class) on her deck together with 4 small launches which may be PBR's. The third article is about UB26 a WW1 German submarine captured by the French and put into their service. The fourth article describes the Free French escort destroyer La Combattante which was a British Hunt Type 3. The next article covers the French contre-torpilleurs of the Guepard Class of the 1930's. There follows an article on Royal Navy losses in WW2. This article by Yves Buffetaut is illustrated by some excellent photos which in many cases are mislabeled. H.M.S. Lookout is labeled as a J,K,N destroyer: a beautiful photo of H.M.S. York in Alexandria in her two tone camouflage is labeled as H.M.S. Exeter: a Town Class cruiser is labeled Fiji Class and worst of all H.M.S. Scylla in her beautiful disruptive camouflage is labeled as a Tribal Class destroyer. Tut! Tut! Monsieur Buffetaut. For all it's faults this is an excellent magazine, with beautiful photographs. I'll try to write about the other magazines some other day when my typer's cramp clears up. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: Powerful footage in Yorktown program Good footage but it alway irritates me when they pass other ships off as the subject ship - I notice one footage of the LEXINGTON on fire and sinking and the other showing the men go over this sides was the old HORNET I belive - at least that looks like her camo paint job. But I guess that have to do what they have to do to get their story across - at least they didn't show any foriegn countries carriers like some of the documentaries I have seen. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: Tom Detweiler - more hauntings Tom said: >> The decks, the bulkheads, overheads, the mass of the ship itself, store energy and for some reason "plays back" sequences of events and personnel. We are, after all, a kind of electrical phenomena ourselves. Who knows, maybe some people while alive have sufficient energy to "record" themselves in their surroundings, especially in traumatic events. Others many years later are sensitive enough to "pick up" the recordings. << That is the most outstanding and almost believable explaination of ghosts I have ever heard. Think about it. Go back 100 years with a video tape and try and convince someone that you have pictures and voices in the little square casset you are holding in your hands - they would lock you up. We can project pictures from one end of the earth to another end in a little box called a TV. If conditions are just right who know what else can project them Tom you have really given me something to think about - Hmm now I have got to spend the night on the HORNET - Better wear a pair of DEPENDS. !! Mike Donegan NAVYDAZE - Naval & Aviation Artist -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Blubber Pud" Subject: Re: HMCS HAIDA CLOSED? Hope this link helps out a bit. http://toronto.com/E/V/TORON/0020/44/02/ Jason -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Mark C Krumrey" Subject: Celebs, and what did you do in the war daddy I am enjoying the celebrity thread, and if I may add a little to it. Lee Marvin Served in the USMC and was wounded on Saipan, (IIRC), is burried in Arlington (IIRC) with the simple epitaph, Private USMC. Steve McQueen served in the Marines, Harvey Keitel, Gene Hackman, John Russell, (Lawman Fame) were Marines. Jimmy Stewart did fly a B-52 bombing mission during Vietnam. Jonathon Winters was a Marine, Johnny Carson was a Naval Officer. Jack Webb served in the Army Air Corps during WWII, as did Gene Autry. Sterling Haydn was a Captain in the Marines and served with the OSS. It is rumored that Don Knotts served in the Marines, but I can't substantiate that rumor. George C. Scott served in the Marines. Victor McLaughlin served in the British Army during the Boer war. Dale Dye, is a retired Marine who served in Viet Nam. Brian Keith served in the Marines. Michael Caine served in the British Army. Bob Keeshain, (Capt. Kangaroo) and the actor who played Mr. Green Jeans were both Marines. And last but not least, Drew Carey served in the Marines. My father was a Signalman on a troop transport serving in the Pacific during WWII, and met Tyrone Power who often went to the signal Bridge to escape the tedium of the embarked Marine spaces. (As a Marine embarked on the USS INchon in 1988, I too spent many an hour on the signal bridge, off duty of course) My father's father was a soldier during WWI, but never deployed, My Fathers mothers grandfather was an officer in the German Army during the 1880's. Mark Krumrey MGYSGT USMCR (ret) New Richmond WI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: RAM launcher on the DAVID RAY >> The Greyhound Navy site says that the USS David Ray was used for RAM testing. I received a reply that earlier this year the Ray was photographed without a RAM launcher. Does this mean that the launcher was tested on this ship and then removed? The plot thickens!!! << Hi; I went on the DAVID RAY at Port Huaneme(sic), California in 1990 or 91. At that time she had a RAM launcher right aft. She was the trials ship for the system. Somewhere here I have most of a roll of 35mm film of her. I`ll send prints if anyone wants them. Cost of printing and postage only. Contact me offline. Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Flagship Models now accepts Visa & MasterCard world wide You can now purchase any of Flagship Models products from most countries world wide using your Visa or MasterCard via Pay Pal. No more currency conversions, bank charges, or waiting weeks in the mail. Place your order and we'll ship next day. Rusty White Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships http://www.okclive.com/flagship We now accept Visa & MasterCard world wide via Pay Pal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume