Subject: SMML VOL 1068 Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:04:53 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Dads War 2: USS NIAGARA-Steam Sloop 1855 3: Re: U-boat off New Jersey 4: Re: New Jersey & Korean War icebreaker ops 5: Re: Yamato book 6: Re: Yamato book 7: Re: Naval Warship Accident Reports 8: Re: What Did You Do In The War.... 9: Convert USS Detroit (CL-8) to USS Milwaukee (CL-5) 10: Trick Question - First Carrier 11: Riverine and Viking 12: FSM Alert 13: E-BOOT After-Market (and research)? 14: First Ships 15: Re: Das Boot 16: Ships on film and tape 17: Re: counter rotating props 18: Korean Presidential Medal 19: Re: Grunion colors 20: Re: Contra-props 21: Re: Das Boot 22: Cleaning 23: Steve Wiper down-under - Thank You -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Tale of Two Books x2 2: Prints for sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Ian MacCorquodale" Subject: Dads War Good Day Group, My Father signed up for the Royal Canadian Navy in 1940 as a weapons rating at the age of 14, he fibbed about his age and his Dad swore to it. He sailed on primarily Tribal Class Destroyers out of Halifax, and with the Home fleet. He was present at the sinking of the Scharnhorst, and completed many convoy runs to the UK and on the Murmansk run. After the war he got out for a year or two, then joined again, serving until 1974, when Unification of the Canadian Armed Forces totally dispirited him. He joined the Canadian Coast Guard as a SAR sailor, and after a nasty accident at sea, joined Ship Repair Unit Atlantic, where he worked until his untimely death in 1986. He wouldnt talk much about his war experiences, despite this he instilled in me the love of warships, which I carry to this day. Cheers, Ian http://www.geocities.com/macrachael/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Edwparent@aol.com Subject: USS NIAGARA-Steam Sloop 1855 Does anyone know if and where a model of this ship exists? I have been trying to find a spar deck plan to build a model of her. Whereabouts of any photographs, drawings or eyewitness accounts would be most appreciated. NIAGARA was a frequent visitor to European Ports before and after the American Civil War. In May, 1857, she arrived at Gravesend, England to be fitted out for cable laying. Later in March 1858, she arrived in Plymouth, England ,for more fitting out. During the Civil War she was photographed at Antwerp, Belgium. That is the only photo outside of USA that I have ever seen. Ed Parent -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Mark McKellar Subject: Re: U-boat off New Jersey >> So if you want, in any book you guys own on U-boats put an index card that's marked U-869 sunk off New Jersey coast in 1945 not off North Africa. << There are actually a number of indicents like this where a German submarine was desginated sunk when the evidence to support the claim is not great. This is one of example. Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Craig R Bennett Subject: Re: New Jersey & Korean War icebreaker ops Hi Guys Concerning the remarks about the New Jersey BB-62, yeah, your right the sight of this huge ship is awesome. Watching her come up the Delaware river last year and last summer seeing where she was parked during the Republican National Convention in Phillie. Is something you don't forget. In about 6 months she opens to the public as a museum.Currently she's at Beckett Terminal part of the old New York Shipbuilding Corp Shipyard being restored for museum work. Recently I had a pleasant surprise my brother in North Carolina years back had bought a Revell 1/350 New Jersey for his son as a christmas present but he didn't have a interest in it. So they gave it to me and with this ship museum being only 10 or so miles west of me, perhaps, some day I'll put it togather and really have the best reference source to work with. If only I could put it on a trailer and bring it home. I guess the neighbors would complain. I have a question about the Korean War. My father served on a navy tug called the USS Apache ATF-67 during that conflict. I remember him telling me a story that his tug was used as a ice breaker on the river that separates North Korea from China (I forget it's name) this was to prevent the Chinesee Army from suppling it self by driving over the frozen river. Has any one ever heard of such operations before and did they use more than one ship for that type of job. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Yamato book >> Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of Janusz Skulski's Battleship Yamato? It seems to be out of print and unavailable. << You're in luck. Caroline Cater at White Ensign Models says the book is back in production and she has them in stock. Contact them. Hopefully someone here in the US has some copies as well if they are in print, so you might check the Naval Institute Press web site. Rusty White Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ We now accept Visa & MasterCard world wide via Pay Pal "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Erwin Van Deynze Subject: Re: Yamato book >> Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of Janusz Skulski's Battleship Yamato? It seems to be out of print and unavailable. If anyone would like to sell their copy or let me borrow one I would be most interested. << Browse a couple issues back, WEM has it in stock, apparently the promised release date for the reprint was only about 8 months later.... Wienne -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Naval Warship Accident Reports Hmmmm... I know first-hand of a USN collision at sea in 1967 that does not appear to be included therein... ;^) John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: What Did You Do In The War.... Not Dad, but rather an uncle (actually, he was technically a cousin, but so much older than me--and married to my aunt--that I always considered him an uncle). He was serving in USS SELFRIDGE (DD-357) at the time of Pearl Harbor, and was present at the attack as SELFRIDGE had just arrived back there the previous day. He remained with the ship for the next two years, and was aboard when she was torpedoed at the Battle of Vella LaVella, losing her bows back to the number 2 5" mount when hit by an IJN Type 93 torpedo. The crew abandoned ship. Realizing she did not appear to be sinking, the Captain asked for volunteers to go back aboard and try to save her. My uncle was among that number, and they eventually got steam back up and backed her back to base. They received sufficient temporary repairs at Purvis Bay (there's a great bow-on photo of her there in Roscoe's destroyer book) to get her back to Pearl Harbor and eventually to Mare Island. When the ship went into drydock at Mare Island, he was transferred off to new construction, winding up on the USS ST. GEORGE (AV-17), a KENNETH WHITING-class seaplane tender. He was aboard her when she was struck by a kamikaze while anchored at Kerama Retto during the Okinawa campaign. In that case, damage was not extensive as the kamikaze struck the aircraft crane. Only one was killed, an Ensign who was in the wardroom when the engine from the kamikaze struck there. I had another (real) uncle in Sherman tanks in the ETO, but did not know him and know little about his experiences. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: " " Subject: Convert USS Detroit (CL-8) to USS Milwaukee (CL-5) Joe Drees wanted to know of resources for converting his 1/350th USS Detroit (CL-8) to the USS Milwaukee (CL-5). Norman Friedman's U.S. Cruisers would be a very good source, but somewhat hard to find and expensive (I believe it was first publishing by U.S. Naval Institute Press in 1985 and retailed for around $50.00 then! This would be a very good source for ALL cruisers up to the Ticonderoga Aegis Class of approximately mid-1980's). Steve Wiper's Omaha Class Cruisers, Warship Pictorial #6 by Classic Warships Publishing (a "photo album") would have several pictures of both the CL-8 and the CL-5. The Warship Pictorial #6 is available at Pacific Front Hobbies as well as a number of others that have "links" on the Warship modeling site. Cost on the WP #6 would be around $10.00 retail. Happy hunting. mailto:jbklb@earthlink.net Loren A. Pike Spring, TX USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Trick Question - First Carrier I've now read the answer Franklyn was looking for - it was a trick question IMO, as those vessels in the late, lamented War of Northern Aggression were not called aircraft carriers. I'd sent the "real" answer but I'm having e-mail problems - so I'm sending it again, now, so people will know the truth ... As someone else noted, the Argus was the first ship to operate land-type (not float) aircraft - not a true carrier in the modern sense (until rebuilt - at first she was more like one of the Soviet aviation cruisers or one of the Japanese hermaphrodite battleships). However, the first ships to be carriers that looked like and operated like aircraft carriers were (according to the Encyclopedia of Ships and other sources, including my memory - which told me where to look): HMS Eagle was the first to begin construction, in 1918 - but she didn't launch until 1924, after Hosho. She began life as the Chilean super-Dreadnought Admirante Cochrane (building in the UK when the war broke out and converted on the ways to a carrier). USS Langley was the first US aircraft carrier (not the cruiser USS Pennsylvania or Birmingham); she was converted from the collier Jupiter. She later became an aircraft transport, and was lost in combat off Java in early '42 - a sad end to a historic ship, but she died with her boots on. Hosho was a purpose-built (I don't believe she started life as something else) carrier, started after Eagle but launched and commissioned earlier - in 1921. She may have been commissioned earlier than Langley, but in any case they were close contemporaries. The first UK-built, purpose-built carrier, Hermes, was also started before Hosho but completed and launched (7 months) later. Japan also had the honor of having the first carrier lost - the Amagi, lost in the quake of '23. Setting aside the War of Northern Aggression, there is no clear-cut "winner" as the first carrier - but all of these vessels are contenders. Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Riverine and Viking Matthew - I've seen the Viking riverine at my local Hobbytown USA; I'd be glad to help you out as an intermediary. However, I think I've seen them in Squadron and VLS Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Ned Barnett Subject: FSM Alert Rusty - Did that early test-shot issue you mentioned carry a really fine article on converting an F4B into an XF5B-1 (in 1/32nd scale)? That was, I believe, the Navy's first all-metal monoplane fighter, though it never entered production. The article and the kit were both fabulous; I think the author was named something like Barnett ... (a minor brag, offered only to prove that at least once in my life I had time enough to build models ... ) Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Ned Barnett Subject: E-BOOT After-Market (and research)? I just scored a great deal from Squadron on an Airfix 1/72 E-Boot - ridiculously low price (check it out if you like large kits of small boats). However, this unplanned purchase leads to two questions: 1. Are there any after-market accessories to clean it up? 2. Are there any decent (and available) references on the E-Boots? If yes to either, sources? Thanks Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Ned Barnett Subject: First Ships My first ship was a Great Lakes cruise ship (maybe just a glorified ferry) when I was 5 - it was awesome. My next ship was the U-505 in Chicago - that started my love-affair with submarines big-time, though I was already a Navy-nut. My next ship was a Norwegian/Caribbean cruise liner - a second honeymoon with my first wife (should have saved the trip to be my first honeymoon with my second wife). It definitely would have been more fun with less booze and a different wife. Militarily (what else really matters), I've been on the Yorktown in Charleston, the North Carolina in Wilmington, the Hornet in Alameda; the Foxtrot in Long Beach and the Queen Mary (hey, she has a 40 mm Bofors on her foredeck) several times each. Single visits include fleet subs in Baltimore, Philadelphia and San Francisco; the Olympia (what a grand ship!); the Liberty Ship in San Francisco; and a WW-II 83-foot Coastie-craft (tied up next to Hornet during Fleet Week). Those are my "first ships." I plan to revisit those in Alameda and SF later this month during a business trip back to my company's home office - and I'm always looking for more. Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: peter samolinski Subject: Re: Das Boot While I know nothing about what models were used for Das Boot, I'm pretty sure the U-505 in Chicago is a Type IX. To my knowledge the only Type VII left in the world is a the U-Boat Memorial in Germany. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Doug Wilde" Subject: Ships on film and tape Bob Reddy's post, citing the movie "The Bridges at Toko-Ri", brings up the whole question of using films as reference material in modeling. This was re-emphasized the next day when Turner Classic Movies (TCM) broadcast “Stand By for Action”. The latter was released in 1942 and relates the (patriotic) story of sailors aboard a WWI four-stack destroyer, reactivated for duty in WWII. The beginning included a fair mount of shots of bridge, decks, and guns. A week or so before that TCM showed a Lon Chaney silent movie from the 20s with a title something like “Go Tell the Marines”. I only saw a snippet, but this included footage aboard battleships, working of 5" (or larger) deck guns. In the background of the shot were other battleships, in line ahead, rolling as they fired broadsides. In searching the US National Archives for information on USS Wolverine and USS Sable (WWII trainer aircraft carriers) I found a newsreel, available on video tape, of the USS Wolverine. So how much is out there on films and newsreels? Wouldn’t it be great if a list was maintained of cinematic releases, newsreels, and television programs, that included specific ship names or at least type of ship? So how much is out there? Last night I made a quick search on “newsreels” AND “archives” and made number of hits. Here is an example. British Pathe has a great, searchable site at: http://www.britishpathe.com/search.html I entered “HMS HOOD”, since so many are enamored of this flawed and doomed ship. Sixteen newsreels were located, spanning the years 1921 to 1937. (Sorry, but when I cut and pasted the descriptions some material was cut off). 1924 HMS Hood in Panama Canal. Thousands turn out to see HMS Hood the world's largest battleship successfully and gracefully make transit of the Panama Canal. 1922 Boxing; military; British Royal Navy Third Cruiser Squadron Boxing championships held on HMS Hood; c. 1922.Nice shot looking between big ship's guns at boxing match in ring set up on deck below; group of sailors bend over looking between th 1922 Military. British Royal Navy- -yet another bizarre ritual. Team from HMS Repulse defeats HMS Hood in the Annual Regatta and win the coveted title of 'Cock' of the Battle Cruiser Squadron. Shot of the boat race in progress; the teams rowing 1921 Item title reads - The ú6,000,000 Warship, H.M.S. (HMS) Hood. It is part of the American proposal that we shall stop the construction of the four new Hoods. M/S of the big warship in dock. M/S of it sailing away slowly. M/S of a tug, 1920 HMS Hood the Royal Navy's new battleship leaves the river Clyde in Scotland for sea trials. L/S An impressive opening shot of the Hood (presumably still on the Clyde) looking towards her bow. Visible are an array of menacing looking gun tu 1922 Military. Navy. Sailors from Brazilian; American; French & Japanese battleships attend a The Dansant on British Royal Navy battleship HMS Hood's Lower Deck; 1922. Sailors enter; salute & shake hands w/ British officer.Cut to shot of the danc 1922 Military. Navy; US & British battleships are reviewed byBrazilian President Epitacio da Silva Pessa. The ships are visiting Brazil in honor of that country's 100th anniversary of independence;. Pessa & group of Brazilian governmental & 1937 HMS Hood off Northern Spain. (N'shell) 1935 HMS Hood and Viking Star in dry dock. (N'shell) 1927 Atlantic Fleet Regatta. HMS Hood wins Rodman Cup one of the most coveted trophies in the Navy. 1926 HMS Hood and Repulse great attractions for holiday makers. (Scarborough) 1926 Atlantic Fleet sports.Competitors from every ship contend in novel agile and strenuous sports. HMS Hood scores highest aggregate and becomes "Cock of the Fleet". (Torquay). 1922 An appropriate setting. Third Cruiser Squadron hold boxing champioships in the shadow of HMS Hood's great guns. (At sea). 1922 Sailors from Brazilian, American, French and Japanese battleships enjoy hospitality of the "lower deck" on HMS Hood. 1922 Battleships of the world's navies reviewed by President Pessoa during Brazil's centenary of Independence celebrations. Rio de Janeiro. Inc. HMS Hood. 1922 Crossing the line. King Neptune and his Consort hold their Court on HMS Hood and carry out traditional ceremony. Altogether 1200 officers and men were initiated. (Equator). Many of the newsreels held in archives are available on video tape, as interlibrary loan, for rent or purchase. Some of the archives include detailed descriptions of every shot on the reel. So if you find something of value, let the rest of us know. Doug Wilde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: counter rotating props >> Thanks for the information. I'm aware of the torque effects of powerful engines - the P47, Mustang, Corsair, and others all had problems with this, but I didn't know they were as severe as you describe. Did the counter-rotating props introduce problems of their own, e.g. inefficiency, weight, unreliability, etc.? I wonder if any ships used counter-rotating props on concentric shafts? << All of the above. The gearboxes were inefficient, and unreliable. which is why there were so few planes with counter rotating props. A better alternative where feasible is the tandem prop arrangement like that used on the Skymaster, a US army recon plane used in Vietnam, and the DO 335. The original prototype of the b35 flying wing also used them but they were dropped in later units because of problems. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Kdg345@aol.com Subject: Korean Presidential Medal Can someone tell me the address for applying for the Korean Presidential Medal that is awarded to Korean Veterans - I mean the one issued by the Korean government. I received mine from Randolph Field in Texas about two months ago, but can't find the address. I want to pass this information on to my shipmates that attended the last reunion. Ken Groom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Grunion colors >> I'm looking for information on the camouflage and colours that carried the Gato class sub USS Grunion (SS-216) the summer of 1942, when she was lost. And photos. I only have found one on the net. << At that stage in the war, she was almost certainly MS9 flat black. The model would be black overall, above and below the waterline. Not very visually exciting, I'm afraid. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Contra-props >> Did the counter-rotating props introduce problems of their own, e.g. inefficiency, weight, unreliability, etc.? I wonder if any ships used counter-rotating props on concentric shafts? << The postwar USS Albacore (SS-569) had contra-rotating props in her late (Phase III and phase IV) configurations. The distance between blades and blade shapes were varied during the test program. This propeller installation can be seen today, as she is preserved (out of the water) in Portsmouth, NH. Her unique hull shape was the forerunner of modern SSNs. USS Jack, SSN 605, also had contra-props. Technical problems led these to be less than successful in operation. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Das Boot >> He found the specifications for the original Type VII-C U-boat stored at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry. The plans were then taken to the original builder of the subs, who was commissioned to build a full-sized, sea-going replica, their first such assignment since the war ended. Zehetbauer constructed a second full-sized model for interior filming. Three scale models were built for special effects....." << Liner notes can be somewhat vague and error prone...... The U-boat in Chicago is a Type IX, not a Type VII-C. Hard to say from what you have written if the notes refer to specifications for a Type VII or (erroneously) to deriving the specifications from a Type VII stored in Chicago. Cross sections and plans are certainly available from German sources, and I wouldn't look in Chicago first if I were seeking them. The "full-sized, sea-going replica" is the false Type VII-C hull built over the barge that was used for close up surface shots in the movie (sub pens, entering and exiting St Nazaire on patrol, etc.) The famous shots of the two U-boats meeting in a raging storm used R/C models in a tank, and the models had slightly modified "G.I. Joe" dolls as conning tower crewmen. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Jim Johnson" Subject: Cleaning Cleaning of parts of ship kits is rather simple. Cleaning up liquid or dishwashing soap is very good for cleaning both styrene plastic and resin. I use an old tooth brush and scrub away at it. You must be careful of small parts that can be broken. Rinse thoroughly with clean water to remove any soap residue.If you feel you need further cleaning, Polly Scale markets a plastic cleaning solution that works well. It is mostly alcohol and I use denatured alcohol that I buy at the paint store. When I am working on a styrene of resin kit that I have put a lot of stress on by bending the parts, I put it in a warm/hot water bath. This cleans it and also stress relieves the model prior to painting. Photoetch is trickier to clean because it is very delicate. Alcohol or lacquer thinner works as a dip to clean off fingerprints etc. and vinegar works to etch the metal so paint will stick. The best thing I have found is over in the model railroad section of the hobby shop. Someone (I think it's Walthers) makes a track cleaner/metal prep solution that works well. You have to put it in a container that the photoetch can fit into. I've had a container on my workbench for 10+ years and it still works. I don't know if that's because of the longevity of the solution or my rate of building. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Steve Wiper down-under - Thank You Just a note to say how we in Wellington (Lester, Ken and myself) enjoyed Steve and Tammie Wiper's presence over the last week. Great to touch base with a serious player in the hobby - a rare visit to these parts. Hope you enjoyed yourselves - Ken has the incriminating photographs I understand. No doubt he will be in touch with Shane soon. Seriously, without SMML this probably would not have happened. Many thanks to Shane & Lorna and their predecessors who established and maintain SMML. Best regards, John Sutherland Wellington, New Zealand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Tale of Two Books x2 In my eagerness to score a couple of books from Squadron, I ordered them twice (hint - I lived in Palm Beach county for two years, and voted in a Presidential election there [true!]) ... I'd like to back out of these reasonably - (i.e., recover some of my costs). Both are still in the plastic bags in pristine condition: 1. Amtracs and Amphibians, 1941-45 by Zaloga et.al, Concord Press 2. Detail & Scale USS Forrestal Each is available for $8.50 USD; or both for $15 USD and I'll throw in postage if you buy both. Thanks Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Craig R Bennett Subject: Prints for sale For sale for $8.00 36 pictures of the USS Nicholson DD-982 dated Nov 5,2000. I would prefer to deal with US residents. Please answer off line. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume