Subject: SMML VOL 1069 Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:19:45 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Collisions? 2: Airfix E-Boat, pfui! 3: Re: E-BOAT 4: Re: FSM Test shot issue 5: new jersey 6: Re: Newsreel Archives 7: 144 cast metal parts 8: Re: HMS Illustrious '40 9: Re: Sources on USS Milwaukee (CL-) 10: Re: Ships on film and tape- HMS Hood 11: Unavailable Books 12: Color of Aircraft Tie-Downs on CVNs 13: JFK - Island Painted Black 1/2 Way Up! 14: Reference book on USS Cod (SS-224) 15: Monitor & Merimac 16: CVN-76 - New Island Design 17: Filling cracks 18: Re: Chicago Blue 19: What a Blast from WAY Down Under! 20: U-869 and other U-boat stories 21: More Carrier Trivia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Wanted Detail and Scale USS Kennedy book -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Keith T Bender Subject: Re: Collisions? I'm sure that the navy has many more collisions that never make the Head Lines. Things that are so small that don't need to be told to the public and only reported from the crew to the landlubbers who would never read about them, (especially the sub force), but I won't get into that department. My own ordeal came when I reported aboard the USS Inchon LPH 12 in 2/13/80. Three days on the ship we were out transferring fuel to the USS Spiegle Grove LSD 32. Over the 1mc came the call for "Emergency Breakaway, This Is Not A Drill". That did not get my attention nor most anyone else that was not on the outside of the side to see what was happening. Next call was "Standby for Collision This Is Not A Drill". Then I thought that was getting interesting maybe I should go see what is going on. Up to the hanger deck I ran and just as I got to where I could see out the Starborad hanger door opening I seen this ship so close I thought It was coming in the hanger. I turned and ran to the port side. Next call was for "Brace For Collision, This is Not A Drill". Then we hit! The Speigle Grove's port crain ripped through our starboard elevator as if it were a beer can, curled it right up like nothing. We tore off the Groves boom. So with this the rumors were flying big time. We were only in the Med. for less then a week and everyone had us thinking were going home, yea! Wrong! The USS Iwo Jima LPH 2 was in Rota Spain. They were preparing to go home. The navy decided to take the elevator from her and give it to us and this did happen with the help of a huge floating crain. So after a few days we were once again Med cruise bound. Nothing ever came of this collision as within the two skippers. I know ours wasn't relieved of command but possibly he got a slap on the hand? Fortuity no one was killed or injured, just a little pride hurt, although not mine because I wasn't aboard long enough at that time to "love my ship" as I do now. I do have some slides of our elevator before it was removed but no way to scan them. Thanks for listening, Keith T. Bender -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: Airfix E-Boat, pfui! Ned, That Airfix 1/72 E-Boat is a poor kit. I paid $5 for mine at a swap meet and still think I paid too much. The superstructure, deck and armaments are acceptable for an early war boat. (There are some problems, but they can be fixed. ) The hull is complete crap. It is clunky and out of proportion. It simply does not match the sleek lines of the original. If you use the hull from the kit, your model will not show off the lines that made the Schnellboot an elegant and powerful small combatant. Best reference available on this boat is Harald Fock's "Fast Fighting Boats". Original KM technical drawings of several variants are reproduced in it. The definitive photographic reference on these boats has yet to be published. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: PT191@aol.com Subject: Re: E-BOAT Ned: If you get any help with your request? Please share it with me. T. Garth Connelly -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: FSM Test shot issue >> Did that early test-shot issue you mentioned carry a really fine articl on converting an F4B into an XF5B-1 (in 1/32nd scale)? << Just for the record, the "test shot" issue was a full blown issue. It was just never officially numbered. It was labeled Spring 1982. I looked in the contents page, and no mention of the article you mentioned was there. Sorry. Rusty White Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ We now accept Visa & MasterCard world wide via Pay Pal "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "S Sachsen" Subject: new jersey >> The Big J was always deployed with other ships stationed well away to protect them from her shock waves and concussion. She was an unforgettable symphony of sight and sound, when she was angry. I would not want to ever have been on the receiving end of one of those salvos. << I was told a story by a Marine who witnessed the receiving end during VN. It's been awhile since I heard it, so I'm sorry I don't remember some of the details. He was patroling somewhere near the coast and over a small hill stumbled upon a truck park of sorts. He called for artillery and received a reply whose static and tone was odd to him, like coming from a long distance. He was a little surprised when he discovered it was Navy and even more so when it was the New Jersey. He said that the sound was unmistakeable and undescribeable as the 16" rounds ripped in on target. After it was over, all that was left of the truck park was maybe a fragment of an axle. When asked if he needed any more, he replied in understatement, 'no, you got it.' s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Newsreel Archives Doug has made a good point: there are doubtless thousands of valuable images out there on old newsreels. Here in California, logging on to MELVYL, the online catalogue of the University of California's library system give one access to the titles in the film archives at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA). I can tell you from past experience that doing a search by ship type or by ship name consistently turns up dozens of hits in this archive. Unfortunately, the materials are only viewable on-site, but for anyone in the Southern California region, or anyone visiting there... If I ever have enough leisure time again to do such searches (stop chortling, Caroline!), I'll post any appropriate results. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: 144 cast metal parts Still need help - please advise name and e-mail address of suppliers that sell 144 parts [guns, anchors,etc]. Thank you. John - Seattle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Chris Burton Subject: Re: HMS Illustrious '40 Fred, This is another late response to your question about "Illustrious" colours in 1940 - and it may confuse things rather than help. Plastic Ship Modeller 1996, issue #1 carries a response from to a reader's inquiry that shows "Illustrious" in a two-tone grey pattern, the colours of which are identified as 507A and 507C. The pattern is different from the one shown in Alan Raven's book and in photographs of the ship after rebuilding at Norfolk, Virginia. The Alan Raven/Norfolk pattern is more jumbled and complicated - although the same colours were probably used and the two patterns are very similar overall. The pattern shown in the Plastic Ship Modeller is also IDENTICAL on both sides. The flight deck colour is identified as dark grey-green. The PSM article claims the pattern was carried from 1939 through to the American rebuild in 1941 - this time period is demonstrably erroneous - as other written sources and photos of the ship as-new show. For example, Warship Profile 10, published in the 1970s, confirms that at Taranto "Illustrious" was painted in overall medium grey (elsewhere identified as 507B) and also shows a dark grey-green flight deck with deck markings painted in yellow. Piecing this evidence together, and the replies from other listmembers stating that photos from late 1940 show at least one side of the ship with a different pattern from the Raven scheme, I suspect that Illustrious was first camouflaged right after Taranto actually in the simplified two-tone grey scheme shown in Plastic Ship Modeller, identical on both sides, and continued to have the dark grey-green flight deck with yellow deck markings. At some point after bombing by the Luftwaffe, the camouflage scheme was altered to the similar but more complicated version shown in the Raven book and the photographs from Norfolk, Virginia. The pattern was still identical on both sides. Raven reports the flight deck as dark grey with this pattern so this presumably had been repainted as well. I don't know anything about colours used for the interior of the ship - maybe somebody else can help? Chris Burton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Re: Sources on USS Milwaukee (CL-) I have a copy of Friedman's book which unfortunately has very little information directly relevant to the Milwaukee. A better source might be Stefan Terzibaschitsch's Cruisers of the U.S. Navy 1922-62 also from the Naval Institute Press. Robertm@combatic.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Frank Allen Subject: Re: Ships on film and tape- HMS Hood Thanks for passing on that listing Doug...we had recently added that to the "Battle Cruiser Hood" website's "Visual References" page, but had not thought to place a notice here. Those interested can find the full list at: http://hmshood.com/reference/VisRefs.html Each item is linked to it's appropriate page on the British Pathe website. We are currently working on a listing of photos held by other government agencies as well as listings of other known films. Frank Allen Editor, Battle Cruiser Hood Member, HMS Hood Association -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: JOHNHWER@cs.com Subject: Unavailable Books I keep relearning the same old lesson that books go in and out of print faster than one realizes. Does anyone have possible leads as to where I could purchase one of the following out-of-print books. I've tried Abebooks, Bookfinder and many others without success. The first book below was apparently available through Maritime Books until fairly recently. Bottom line - get what you want when it's available! A Century Of The Royal Navy In Malta by Bonnici / Cassar British Battleships 1919-1939 by Ray Burt Les Cuirass'es Dunkerque et Strasbourg by Robert Dumas Thanks in advance. John Werler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Timothy J. Barron" Subject: Color of Aircraft Tie-Downs on CVNs I'm working on a super-detailed 1/720 CVN kit from Italeri, and am getting ready to start with the flight deck. For the last several years, the several hundred aircraft tie-downs on CVN decks appear to be the same color as the deck. No longer are they white or light gray. Here are two pictures that demonstrate how they are the same or nearly the same color as the deck. In the first picture, you can hardly see them. http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Aug1998/980702-N-3178W-001.html http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Jul2000/000626-N-0606M-001.html With "scale effect," I am debating about ignoring them or using an ever-so-slight different color. I am also considering using a hand pin-drill, just to verly lightly score them in. If anyone has done a CVN, I'd be interested in knowing what you did. Timothy J. Barron mailto:tjbarro@worldnet.att.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Timothy J. Barron" Subject: JFK - Island Painted Black 1/2 Way Up! An interesting picture of the JFK from January....the island is painted black 1/2 way up. I've never seen that before. http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/kennedy/jfk2000.jpg Timothy J. Barron mailto:tjbarro@worldnet.att.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "ERIC OLSON" Subject: Reference book on USS Cod (SS-224) This past weekend I purchased an incredibly good, inexpensive photo reference book on the USS Cod (SS-224), a US Navy WW II Gato class submarine. he real USS Cod is preserved as a museum on Lake Erie in downtown Cleveland, Ohio. The book is 80 pages with photographs of interior and exterior details with most in black and white, but some (20% or so) in color. ome of the photos (including some of the color ones) were taken when the submarine was operational and at sea. The book is titled, "U.S.S. Cod WW II Submarine Memorial, Photo Museum Guide." It was published in 1999 by Oxford Museum Press, Inc. (ISBN 1-930127-01-4) and retails for a mere US$12.95. Oxford Museum Press has a website at http://www.oxfordmuseumpress.com , so give it a try if you need a decent, inexpensive Gato class submarine reference. I have no connection with either the museum or the publisher--just thought you folks would appreciate the tip. Eric O.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Ray8017@aol.com Subject: Monitor & Merimac need any info available on the Monitor and the Merimac (the Virginia) the Civil War ironclads would like a picture and description of the deck fittings and also an idea of the paint ..If there is a illustrated book available that would be appreciated ..We are building models of them to offer on the market and could use that info. ray8017@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Timothy J. Barron" Subject: CVN-76 - New Island Design The Newport News website has some high resolution photos of the island of the Reagan: http://www.nns.com/news/2000/nr2k1111.htm Acccording to the site "Changes to the island include the addition of a new outboard weapons elevator, a new mainmast, a new aft mast and a new topside antennae arrangement." Timothy J. Barron mailto:tjbarro@worldnet.att.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Connor, Michael" Subject: Filling cracks Dear All, I am currently building the Airfix HMS Daring in 1/600 scale. When I place the two halves of the hull together with the deck in place I notice a gap at the bow(just at the bull ring - the rest of the bow fits together) and at the stern. The bow is OK. I can just sand down the sides of the deck a bit. However I don't feel confident enough to try that with the stern. I still class myself as a beginner. I was wondering if I could fill the stern with some sort of filler which is available in Australia or just use a lot of glue and paint it. As I said. I am only a beginner. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Chicago Blue John, Do you think that maybe the Australian's made their own, using their own stocks of paint, and using a US paint chip or of the actual hull paint(a match)??? Just throwing that one out, for conversation sake, Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: What a Blast from WAY Down Under! I would just like to say what a great time I and my wife had in New Zealand, and a very special thanks to Lester Abbey and family, Ken & Christine Hoolihan, and John Sutherland. To all you Americans, New Zealand is a real bargain! Our US $ is worth 2.5 of the NZ $!!! Found lots of good used book stores. Did two serious days research at two archives in Wellington, finding more than I expected, including some great photos of Hood, Renown, and Repulse in 1928 @ Wellington. Also found photos on Leander, Achilles, Sydney, Australia(cruiser and battlecruiser), Canberra, and New Zealand(battlecruiser). New Zealand is a beautiful country! The sights are spectacular, and some of the best food I have ever stuffed my face with. As they say in New Zealand, "Yummy". Best, but not least, GREAT BEER! Highly recommended, Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Jim Johnson" Subject: U-869 and other U-boat stories The recent PBS show on the U-869 being discovered to be sunk off of New Jersey reminded me of another U-boat sinking that I am aware of. Believe it or not, there is a U-boat at the bottom of Lake Michigan!! A friend of mine went to the marine division of Bowling Green State University. They are known as one of the leading facilities concerning Great Lakes shipping history. (He went to BGSU, which is in Ohio). He ran across a story about a U-boat being sunk in lake Michigan. He had a number of press clippings that he had copies of, but this was about 20 years ago so all the details are not precise. The main facts of the story are true. (at least if you believe everything you wee in newspapers). During, or more likely at the end of World War One, a captured/capitulated German submarine was being towed around the great lakes as a advertisement for selling war/peace bonds. It was in Chicago when it was decided that it's being there was in violation of a treaty signed by the US and Canada against warships being on the Great Lakes. It was decided to dispense with it by using it as a target for the naval reserves in the area. It was towed out maybe 20 miles from Chicago and sunk by gunfire IIRC. It sunk in a little over 200' of water. The articles I read about it concerned several companies that were trying to get salvage rights to the hulk. It seams that the Germans used mercury as ballast in their submarines during WW I. The articles were from the late 70's and at the time it was estimated that there was around a million dollars worth in the wreckage. The location of the wreck was found by the navy reserve flying over and finding it with a MAD boom. The location was not known to anyone but the navy for fear that someone (like my buddy) would try to salvage it and either be killed in the attempt or would release tons of toxic mercury into the lake. If you saw the PBS show, you know that about 130' is the maximum recommended for compressed air SCUBA diving. This is over 200' down and 3 people were lost diving on the U-869 in 230' of water. My buddy talked me into taking SCUBA lessons thinking I might help him in his quest. When we completed our certification, he told me about the U-boat with the million dollars of mercury at the bottom of Lake Michigan. I was not interested and he never went farther with his scheme. I haven't heard anything about it in the 20 years since. I wonder if it's still there, if somebody salvaged it or if the mercury is going to find it's way into the environment. Jim Johnson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: More Carrier Trivia Hi; Who (which navy) first operated a carrier task force during wartime? Carrier task force defined as ship(s) carrying heavier than air aircraft escorted by warships. Lets out that ACW barge baloon! Extra credit - Which war, which body of water, and who did they attack by air? Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Wanted Detail and Scale USS Kennedy book I ordered both the Kennedy and Forestall book from Squadron once I found out they were in the sale flier. Unfortunately, I wasn't the only one. The Kennedy book was not in stock. If anyone has an extra USS Kennedy book they want to dispose of, let me know. Rusty White Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ We now accept Visa & MasterCard world wide via Pay Pal "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume