Subject: SMML VOL 1071 Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:11:39 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: USS Thomas C. HART was USS Thomas E. Hart 2: Re: USS Thomas E.(C?) Hart 3: new jersey 4: Re: Ward 5: Re: WW1 Camouflage 6: Re: E-BOOT and Harold Fock's Book? Pfui? 7: First Carrier Task Force 8: Re: Kiwi beer 9: Modern Marvel? 10: Re: USS NAUTILUS/Battle of Midway documentary 11: Lighting models 12: Putting the record straight 13: Re: USS Thomas E. Hart 14: Re: Help With A Submarine 15: Re: USS Thomas E. Hart 16: U869 etc 17: Re: New Jersey 18: The Search For Fast Fighting Boats 19: CVN - Hangar Deck Questions 20: Re: USS Apache - Korea 21: Re: More Carrier Trivia 22: 1/72 kit reviews 23) Re: CVN - Hangar Deck Questions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: NEWS FROM WHITE ENSIGN MODELS 2: They are printed! 3: WTB Revell Finnjet ocean liner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Re: USS Thomas C. HART was USS Thomas E. Hart Mike Kear passed on a message from the Task Force 72 website ... >> Can you tell me where I could find a model kit for the USS Thomas E. Hart. My brother was stationed on it. I believe it was called a "fast frigate." << I looked up the name Hart on Destroyers Online. I was able to find a listing for the USS Thomas C. HART (FF-1092). The HART was a Knox-class frigate. There are seevral nice pictures of the HART, including a nice one of her entering the harbor at Taranto, Italy. In 1993, the Hart was transferred to the Turkish navy as the Zafer. As far as the models go ... In 1:350 scale - White Ensign has a brand new Knox frigate and Iron Shipwright will be releasing one later this month. In 1:700 scale - Corsair Armada has a resin kit and AFV has a styrene kit. Flagship Models makes a set of etched brass for the Knox Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: USS Thomas E.(C?) Hart >> A visitor to my site ModelWarship72: http://www.healey.com.au/~mkear/tf72.htm asked the following: Can you tell me where I could find a model kit for the USS Thomas E. Hart. My brother was stationed on it. I believe it was called a "fast frigate." << There was a 'USS Thomas C. Hart' FF1092, a Knox class frigate. This is probably the ship she is looking for. >> And then of course, once identifying what class of ship this is/was, next to find out if there's a kit. << 1/350 resin kits due out in the next couple of months and I believe 1/700 (shudder) plastic kits available. Darren -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Shirley Sachsen Subject: new jersey >> He was patroling somewhere near the coast and over a small hill stumbled upon a truck park of sorts. He called for artillery and received a reply whose static and tone was odd to him, like coming from a long distance. He was a little surprised when he discovered it was Navy and even more so when it was the New Jersey. He said that the sound was unmistakeable and undescribeable as the 16" rounds ripped in on target. << >> Doesn't sound quite right. The VN supply line didn't use trucks in South Vietnam let alone mass them in a park of any sort. Trucks would have to use roads - easy targets and where would they gas up or unload their cargo? Then one 16" round would have cost more than the entire truck pool. << no it doesn't, but as I said, I don't remember the tactical details--just that the New Jersey was looking for a target and obliged the Marine patrol. as far as cost of the target vs. the ammo used against it. should this surprise you? how many Arclight missions were launched over suspected bicycle parks? and how much ordnance was dumped on the Plain of Jars? cost vs. value of target didn't seem to be an issue in that war. s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: VONJERSEY@aol.com Subject: Re: Ward Thanks to Edward F Grune for the informatiuon regarding the Ward. i remember putting together a (Revell?) model of the ward some 10 years ago. Pretty good model. I'd love to try it again given new tools and information at hand. anyone know how to get one? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: WW1 Camouflage From: "Edward F Grune" >> The pictures show the ward in her as-commissioned WWI camouflage. (John - whats the status of your WWI paint chip set) << The status is, quite honestly, that we haven't started research yet, but DO know the location of the materials at the US National Archives. It's on the list of things to do in 2001. Right now we're trying to get the second Kriegsmarine set on line before the Fleet Air Arm show in mid-February. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Steve Sobieralski Subject: Re: E-BOOT and Harold Fock's Book? Pfui? Unfortunately Fast Fighting Boats can be very difficult to find and expensive to buy if you do find it. Torpedo Junction: http://www.sonic.net/~books/ lists one, but the price is $125.00. Another useful book on S-Boats is German Coastal Forces by M.J. Whitley. It can be almost as difficult to find, but it is much more reasonably priced. Steve Sobieralski -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Robert and Rose Brown Subject: First Carrier Task Force Hi there: The Royal Navy operated the first carrier task force. It was World War One, the body of water was the North Sea, and the target was the zeppelin sheds at Tondern, located at the mouth of the Elbe. The occasion was a raid by 7 Sopwith Camels from HMS Furious on the zeppelin sheds at Tondern on July 19, 1918. Two zeppelins, L54 and L60 were destroyed, and extensive damage was caused to their hanger building. 3 Camels were interned in Denmark, 3 made it back to ditch near the task force, and 1 was listed as missing. Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Kiwi beer >> Novelist Robert Parker (the "Spencer" private detective series) once proclaimed in an interview that Steinlager is the world's finest beer. << Actually, I really liked the Lion Red and Tui. They were really smooth. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Modern Marvel? I want to update you - for those in the US who get cable - History Channel, December 12, 10 p.m., "Modern Marvels" - this is the program I'll be featured on as a so-called "expert" in 20th Century military technology. Proving once again that you CAN make it up as you go along ... (end self-indulgent brag - back to ship modeling ...) Ned Barnett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Jonathan Parshall Subject: Re: USS NAUTILUS/Battle of Midway documentary This show will also be my 15 minutes of fame, as Tony Tully and I explain how we ID'ed the piece of wreckage for Nauticos and positively identified it as belonging to Kaga. Geeks on parade, baby! jon parshall- Imperial Japanese Navy Page http://www.combinedfleet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Michael Dunn" Subject: Lighting models Timothy wrote: >> Question 3 - Any ideas/experience on lighting the hangar deck of a 1/700-1/720 model with something battery operated? Is it worth it in 1/700-1/720? I'm worried about it being to bright - maybe behind some type of tinted plastic? << I suggest you pop over to your local Science Fiction hobby store, and pick up one of the ERTL fible-optic kits while you can. These make decent effects. Also, there is a "lighting fabric" available that just needs a + and a - contact to make it glow - can't remember it's name for love nor money, but it's the best if you want to have a lit hanger from above. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Chris Drage" Subject: Putting the record straight To those afficianados among us: >> Novelist Robert Parker (the "Spencer" private detective series) once proclaimed in an interview that Steinlager is the world's finest beer. << The discerning tippler KNOWS Stienlager is the World's finest nector! Enough said. Just to add to Mike's comments on the Skytrex range: I was delighted with the latest range of WWII cruisers. Having bashed a Black Prince into a Diadem already, I can say that white metal is very soft and will burr/file off easily. Forget the masts (check for accuracy and use as templates for decent brass rodding. White metal would never take the rigging anyway. With PE, these kits will build into lovely models. The representative deck planking is coarse but John and Dave assure me that Skytrex will address that in the future. Use you WEM brass and resin parts for details. At last we are getting a good variety of WWII RN cruisers in 1:700. Skytrex are looking seriousaly into making a range of harbour/dockyard items as well. Can't wait to bash the Charybdis into a Scylla! Regards Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo kupu kaore e taea te karo (Te reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Kenneth Perry Subject: Re: USS Thomas E. Hart I don't know of a USS Thomas "E." Hart, but there was a USS Thomas "C." Hart, FF-1092 which was a Knox class frigate which was leased on a five year lease to Turkey, I believe. Ken -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Kenneth Perry Subject: Re: Help With A Submarine I am also from Virginia Beach and I've seen the hulk you talked about. I have also been told my whole life that it is indeed a German sub hulk. It lies almost right next to the bridge pilings next to the sea wall by the restaurant. There's not much left sticking out of the sand these days. You might not even recognize it as a sail. Ken -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Craig R Bennett Subject: Re: USS Thomas E. Hart Hi Guys Concerning the Thomas E.Hart the only ship I've heard of is the USS Thomas C. Hart FF-1092 of the Knox class fast frigates class. Built in 1973 she was decommisioned in 1993 and sold to Turkey.None of her sisters are still in service. Many have been sold to other countries.I know that in 1/700 scale AFV makes a plastic kit. Also there was resin kit but I don't remember the manufacturer. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Tony Ireland" Subject: U869 etc During WW2 German submarines definitely carried cargoes of mercury across the Indian Ocean to Penang to help Japan's war industries, apparently in large, totally filled, rectangular flasks similar in size to U-boats' usual main batteries. Lead ballast had to be off-loaded to compensate. One such supply U-boat had the misfortune to be torpedoed by a British submarine when it was almost in sight of Penang Island. If any crew survived, you can imagine how they cursed... A few years ago some Australian divers located her wreck and actually salvaged some flasks of mercury, only to have these impounded when they tried to land them in Penang. The German Government argued that, since the Royal Navy had never laid claim to the wreck as a war prize, the U-boat remained the property of Germany - especially the mercury which was worth a great deal. I think the Malaysian Government also put in a claim, too. In the end I believe the Aussies got to keep some of the booty. Hard to picture there'd be much left of a U-boat torpedoed while running surfaced! BTW: I understand that, among other vital, strategic war materials that Hitler ordered sent by sub. to help Japan, were blue-prints and chemical formulae from German patents files relating to developments in radar, plastics, electronics and optical equipment, etc. This must have helped Japan's post-war camera industry to eclipse its German rivals. In return, U-boats carried bales of rubber and ingots of tin back from Penang. Cheers, Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SolidStump@aol.com Subject: Re: New Jersey >> He was patroling somewhere near the coast and over a small hill stumbled upon a truck park of sorts. He called for artillery and received a reply whose static and tone was odd to him, like coming from a long distance. He was a little surprised when he discovered it was Navy and even more so when it was the New Jersey. He said that the sound was unmistakeable and undescribeable as the 16" rounds ripped in on target. << >> Doesn't sound quite right. The VN supply line didn't use trucks in South Vietnam let alone mass them in a park of any sort. Trucks would have to use roads - easy targets and where would they gas up or unload their cargo? Then one 16" round would have cost more than the entire truck pool. << Yes Kelvin, the story must be a lie! Even if the VC did use some trucks you didn't know about back then, an air strike would have been more cost effective....or maybe a platoon or two of ground grunts should have been called in....only a couple of them would get killed...so that's even more cost effective.... Hi, Ok guys, lets take this part of the thread offlist please. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: The Search For Fast Fighting Boats I agree with Ned, if you're into Schnellboots (E-boats), you gotta have Harald Foch's "Fast Fighting Boats" (USNIP 1973 & Nautical Publishing co., Ltd 1978). Abebooks.com turned up zip--they represent quite a few booksellers associated with the ABA, so it may be difficult to find a copy. Fock's book is worth any price for the plans of small fighting craft it contains. You could save the money asked for the Airfix E-Boat kit and scratchbuild your own model from the detailed drawings in Foch's book. "E-Boats And Coastal Craft" by Paul Beaver (Aztex 1981) is well done and has a good photo section on Schnellboots and Vorpostenboots (armed trawler patrol craft) as well. If Abe Taubman doesn't have plans, try Christian Schmidt (www.christian-schmidt.com). Schmidt lists Schnellboot S-38 & S-100 on page 22 of his 2000 catalog. Not sure of quality, though. One thing that always kept me from buying the Airfix E-boat was the weird 1/72nd scale. It's ok for planes, but ships should stick to common "ship" scales. Now, a styrene E-Boat in 1/48th scale-- would be something worth firing up the molding machines for. Make it an early version, not the one that has a skullcap for a bridge, throw in a photoetch set & some snappy decals and that kit would be a winner. Regards, Victor Baca Model Ship Journal Hi Victor, I'm sure that the guys from Task Force 72 amongst others, would heartily disagree with your assumption about "common" ship scales. Only goes to show that the scale of the model doesn't really matter - only that you get enjoyment out of it. Shane - who may one day get to his 1/72 ship kits ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SJantscher@aol.com Subject: CVN - Hangar Deck Questions Timothy, They're not dumb questions. I was assigned to AirWing Eight on the Nimitz and ship's company on the Saratoga, and the answers are the same for both (and all CV/CVN classes). >> Question 1 - Just curious, can the entire airwing fit (below) in the hangar deck of a CVN carrier? << No. In a tight squeez maybe 30%-40%, but that is just a W.A.G. (Wild A** Guess) on my part. I'm sure though that I'm correct on answer number one, No. >> Question 2 - Are aircraft types stored in any particular areas of the hangar deck? For example, I am planning on having all hangar bay doors open and am wondering for accuracy's sake, if I should be concerned. Most flight deck photos show F-14s near the stern, E2 and SH-60s near the island, and F-18s near the bow. For those aircraft that I put below deck, I was planning on matching that. Am I somewhat accurate? << Aircraft are kept in the hanger bay for maintenance only or during special weapon exercises (which we don't do anymore). All useable aircraft are put on the roof, with the possible exception of the very real need sometimes for the Handeler to clear up space on the roof. Each squadron will have a few "hard luck" hanger queens, and even in the gravey days of Reagan's presidency, we never had enough spare parts to keep all the aircraft up and flyable except for fly-offs at the end of cruise. We really didn't like to crane off a bird if we could help it. There is no credance to placing aircraft by type in special areas of the hanger bay that I've ever heard of, or observed. The regularity of the deck spotting you've observed on the roof is due more to the shape and size of the aircraft, the size and shape of safe areas during flight ops and the type of cycle you're flying. Before the lawn-dart days, the Tomcats would land first, followed by the A-7s, A-6s etc. The deck handler had to accomidate the aircraft in this order, so that's how some aircraft were placed where they were. The deck spotting will also change depending if you're the first cycle or the last. Each night, the handler rearanges the spot for the following morning's first go. Engine shops were in the rear of the hanger bays, and avionics were forward. This is not to imply that all engine maintenance was done in hanger bay three. They've got dollys that carry the engines where ever they want them. There was no rhyme nor reason where one aircraft or another went except that they would try not to bury a plane likely to be flyable soon. I also don't recall seeing the E-2 in the hanger bay often, but it did sometimes happen. Also, back in my days on the Nimitz, it seems we had a lot of ship's boats stored back in hanger bay three, port side. I don't recall how many the Sara had. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Kdg345@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Apache - Korea Sir: The river you are refering to is probably the "Yalu". You might look at the book "The Sea War in Korea" by Malcolm Cagle & Frank Manson. I looked at my copy, but I didn't see listed when I glanced thru the book. It is a very good book on the Navy's part in the Korean War and includes quite a bit of detail. Ken Groom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: More Carrier Trivia >> Believe this would be the IJN off of China in 1931 during the "Incident" they concocted as an excuse to invade Manchuria? << Hi; Earlier! Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "enrico_villa@libero.it" Subject: 1/72 kit reviews Hallo everybody I'm considering making myself a gift for Christmas, and I'd like to buy a 1/72 kit of a WW2 PT Boat. My choice is at the moment restricted to Airfix E-Boat and Vosper and to Revell PT 109 and Vosper '70, I've already read on this list something about the E-boat kit: does any of you have build one of the others? Are there any reviews available on the web? Thank you and bye! Enrico -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Craig R Bennett Subject: Re: CVN - Hangar Deck Questions Hi Guys Concerning the setting up of electric light in a model. You can try getting Erlt-Amt Fiber lighting set #6605. You get different size lights,wire, battery jack, drill for fiber lighting, 1200 inches of fiber optical line, battery pact, Chrome reflecting strips and support pieces for the lights. Since your dealing with a 1/720 carrier study the hangar and if nessicary leave some the doors closed.so you can illuminate it. I did this with well sorta of a carrier - Revell Monogram's Battle star Galactica kit in which I put in light for the engines and hangar bays. Learn the difference between the single series circuit wiring and a parrallel series circuit. If your using more than 2 bulbs to disburse the electricity properly. It costs $30.00. That's alot but it can help you make what you want. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: NEWS FROM WHITE ENSIGN MODELS Hi Guys, Please check out "NEWS" at the following location http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/news.htm CONWAY'S ANATOMY OF THE SHIP YAMATO now in print again at 30 quid! REVELL 1/700 HMS ILLUSTRIOUS (at last!) WEM NS 012 1/350 PT-109 Kit just released FAN PUBLICATIONS "ILLUSTRIOUS and IMPLACABLE CLASS CARRIERS 1942-1969 CORVETTES OF THE ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY 1939-1945 by Macpherson and Milner at 11.95 Pounds (around $17.00) and more on kits and etched brass in the update. ALL in-production 1/700 kits are now restocked at last, in time for those Christmas prezzies from your partners/kids etc. .. so time for us to think about the 1/700 QE 1918 and 1/700 HMS RENOWN 1942 releases for 2001.. All The Best Caroline Carter WEM (Sorry about current round of delays and lack one-to-one of phone-answering but I'm on my own for a week.. and it's ignore the phone or ignore the E-mail right now..) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: They are printed! Classic Warships books #'9 & 10 are available, and shipping today! #9 is the Indianapolis & Portland photo album, with lots of new photos on the Indianapolis, not in my first book on that subject, and a great selection of photos, some never before published, on the "Indy's" sister ship, Portland. A new larger format, 64 pages, packed with over 120 photos, history and specifications, all at the great price of $12.00 US. #10 is the Yorktown Class Carriers photo album, 64 pages packed with over 120 photos, history and specifications of three of the most famous carriers in the US Navy. Great views of the dazzle camo pattern on the Enterprise, from all angles. Every photo you will need to detail any model of these ships for only $12.00 US. First batch has already shipped to Pacific Front Hobbies @ www.pacificfront.com. I will be shipping to all other dealers by this coming Monday. Next up: Warship Pictorial #11 - Lexington Class Carriers Warship Pictorial #12 - ????????????????????? Thank you, Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: FOP5@aol.com Subject: WTB Revell Finnjet ocean liner Hi Follow members I am looking to purchase a model by Revell-Silja Line C.T.S. Finnjet Ocean Liner # 5229-1/400.If anyone has one for sale or if thay know where to get one please let me know.I will purchase it from them or you.e-mail me at mailto:FOP5@aol.com. Carmen J. Balsama Sr. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume