Subject: SMML VOL 1089 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:21:50 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Sea Shadow 2: Tone/Chikuma 3: Fleet Boat Black 4: Evergreen and Plastruct round stock 5: Shipmodels 6: Re: Japanese naval aircraft colors/Tone-Chikuma question 7: Prince of Wales Help 8: Video of USS Arizona 9: Re: Japanese mini-sub found 10: Re: Taiho 10cm turrets/Tone-Chikuma questions 11: Inquiry Faults the Cole's Captain and Crew 12: E Boats 13: Model Warship Journal?? 14: Re: FIRST SHIP 15: graff spee 16: Pearl Harbor stuff 17: Re: Vents 18: Japanese aircraft colors 19: SMML Trivia 20: U 505 weapons fit 21: Tony Ireland's First Ship 22: Trivia 23: HP Models 24: Re: Fleet Boat Black 25: Re: Models other than ships 26: Bringin' the kids up right 27: Review of HMS Laforey (1942): Additional Comments 28: SMML Trivia 29: Back dating Tone/Chikuma 30: Flower class corvettes 31: Japanese Heavy Cruiser ATAGO 32: Models other than ships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: Washington DC area SMMLcon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Sean Pritchard" Subject: Sea Shadow Hi All, Does anyone out there have an instruction sheet on the Revell Sea Shadow That they could scan and send to me via e-mail?The whole thing if possible, I assume it isn't a huge 120 page volume!Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Sean -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Tone/Chikuma Hi Mike Never fear, the Lacroix and Wells book is available which gives details of Tone and Chikuma throughout their lives. In fact despite its cost it is definitely the better reference than the Morskie production. I also have an article which appeared on Navis when it was a free site. Written by Harvey Low it was specifically about the aircraft and their markings carried by both these ships. I used both for my model of Chikuma (Sept 40). Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Tom Eisenhour" Subject: Fleet Boat Black Mark Doremus wrote: >> A while back, in a discussion about Measure 9 paint for USN W.W.II Fleet boats someone suggested not using a straight black (or flat black). Instead they suggested lightening the black to a gray (grey), maybe even suggested a Testor's match. Anybody with a better memory or faster search recall what was suggested? << It was me, back on October 27. Sean Obrien had a similar question, to which I responded: I have two bits of advice. The first has to do with painting: don't paint the submarine black. All-black models look "dead" so use a very dark gray (maybe even as light as Testor's Modelmaster Gunship Gray) with darker shading around the edges and at panels, etc. Study the techniques armor modelers use. Paint the lower portion of the hull in a slighly darker shade of gray than the upper hull, deck, and fairwater -- but still not all the way to black. The second bit of advice has to do with how you treat the limber holes on the hull casing [of the Revell kit]. This is a presentation model, I assume being built on a deadline, so don't get too hung up with trying to open them. Get a 00 Rapidograph pen and some Pelikan FT black ink and fill them in. You'll be surprised how good it will look. Good luck, Tom Eisenhour -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Foeth" Subject: Evergreen and Plastruct round stock I have bought quite a lot of Evergreen round stock once, and none of it is round. Plastruct material is a lot better, and available from diameters as small as 0.3(!)mm , so you would not have to use brass, which is a lot harder to cut. more difficult to glue (weld) or drill. I would recommend Plastruct round stock over brass or evergreen, unless it should be very strong. On the other hand, Evergreen offers a better choice in plating and V-grooved styrene, and plastic strip. EJ Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: corlasvan@webtv.net (Case Van Hoboken) Subject: Shipmodels Hi Michiel, I noticed your message to the folks at MSSL relative to model-kits of several Kon.Mar. ships, among which you metioned Hr.Ms. Tromp, Van Speyk, Tonijn, Kortenaar, and Karel Doorman. I was not aware of any such kits and, therefore, quite surprised. As it happens, I have been looking for a kit, or maybe a model, of H.M. Tijgehaai, Zwaardvis, or Dolfijn. Now, these were boats which had been acquired from the ROYAL NAVY ( Britain) and were so-called " T-Class boats" ,measuring about 1,200 tons. Time-wise, we are talking about boats built around 1943.....! i.e. WW2! As I said, I have looked all over,here in the U.S. as well as in the U.K. It so happens that I served in Tijgerhaai and Zwaardvis, in the early 1950s, while I was with the Onderzee Dienst. Do you have any knowledge of such a kit being available, anywhere? I am looking for, maybe, a scale of 1/200, or thereabouts. It sure would "make my day" if I could find a kit like that. I have info-ed this message to my nephew Rob, who-as you must have noticed, resides in the Netherlands. His Dad, Harry (my brother...!) is one of the most knowledgable guys as far as Navy (any !) ships are concerned. If YOU ever have any need for pertinent info on that topic, he could probably help you out. Hope to hear from you ! Case. PS. Rob & Carla : hope you don't mind me making use of your hook-up ?! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Japanese naval aircraft colors/Tone-Chikuma question From: SantMin@aol.com >> As an aside, I do not normally model Japanese aircraft but I do have a piece of one, a small rectangle of aluminum cut from a downed plane during WW II. I have kept it stored out of any light all these years. The outside is from the insignia and it is a darker red than I normally see on illustrations << Bob, you've probably inadvertantly and unintentionally darkened your sample yourself. Linseed oil-based paints darken and yellow when stored away from light. It's a problem I have to deal with then doing paint analysis on historic buildings, and one which Randy and I had to deal with when working with period paint samples to produce our line of paint chips. Put your sample under fluourescent light for about 24 hours, or out in the sun for a couple of days, and you should see a perceptible lightening due to ultraviolet "bleaching", which should give you an accurate idea of the original color. And no, you won't do your sample any long-term harm with that bit of exposure. From: "Mike Taylor" >> Can anyone help me with info for backdating the Tone/Chikuma kits to there Pearl Harbor configuration? I believe the Morskie book is out of print. << Mike: Caroline at White Ensign Models still has the TONE-class Profile Morskie book listed. You might try there. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys--Now working with WEM to produce the best available range of model warship paints! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Frank Allen Subject: Prince of Wales Help Can someone let me know the names of the colours used in the final camouflage for HMS Prince of Wales (The Admiralty MSXXX and APXXXX designators)? Also, can anyone recommend a good source for painting information? Thanks in advance! Frank -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Stuart Batchelor Subject: Video of USS Arizona I remember watching a special on TV a couple of years ago (National Geographic?) where a combination of USN & US Park Service divers were surveying the remains of the Arizona and it included still & video photography. They worked the outside only, and were limited by visibiity of 15 - 20 feet in either direction and had a close up of some the bunker oil leaking out of the wreck (they called "weeping"). The end result was a very detailed sketch of the present condition of the ship to compare to what they from the 1940's. I vaugely recall some of the naration saying the US Park Service divers having just come from doing a similar but longer job on the Bikini wrecks. Don't know what has happened to the data since then. Stuart Batchelor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: RhinoBones@aol.com Subject: Re: Japanese mini-sub found Is there any hard evidence that the Ward's depth charges actually destroyed the Japanese mini-sub? After all, is it possible that the Japanese skipper escaped and moved the vessel away from the encounter (a la the CSS Hunley) and lost his ship due to circumstances other than direct action? Just asking . . . clueless in Capistrano. A side note to MD at Carson Sales Co. . . . a Zhengdefu 1890's is under construction. No PBYs yet. Thanks for the help. For the Hints & Tips crowd: 1) I like to use water colors for weathering, but as you know, water beads up on the modeling surface. I experimented by using rubbing alcohol instead of water and it works like a champ. No beading at all and it cleans up easily if you make a mistake. It does require good ventilation!! Next week I'm trying it with a good California white grenache. Next month I'll try a Coors. 2) Pastel chalks are excellent for weathering models. However, you might also want to try women's make up. I have two teenage daughters and am therefore an authority on the subject. On the lower hulls, ship sides and flight decks (i.e. the big areas) try rubbing a bit of color on your finger tip and lightly applying the color to the model surface. I have applied a dark color (black or a very dark red) along the painted keel and then gently feathered the color as I move up toward the water line. This technique tends to enhance the natural shadowing of the lower hull. I also had an occasion where I applied chalk to a hull and subsequently spent another three months reworking the kit. After all the additional handling, all of the random chalk smudges and smears made the boat look like a dirty old ship that had been out on patrol too long. Never could have achieved the same effect intentionally. A Happy Christmas Season to All . . . I'll be surfing at The Wedge. Regards, RhinoBones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Dboykap@aol.com Subject: Re: Taiho 10cm turrets/Tone-Chikuma questions There are no alternative equipment sets for these turrets that I know of. I was wondering myself if one of the new CA equipment sets from Skywave/Pitroad maight contain some, but it does not appear so to judge from the photos posted on their website. These seem to be strictly dedicated to the 8" IJN CAs. So, that leaves either the Oyodo based units (which look good but might be slightly overscale) or scratchbuilding (groan :-( ) The other alternative is to cut out the backs of the the Taiho turrets, sides angling back and upwards, while leaving the turret roof intact. That's how I've chosen to handle it, on an "interim" basis, until something comes along. Mike, I have the Profile Morski book. Contact me off-line with questions. Dan Kaplan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) To: JRKutina@webtv.net Subject: Inquiry Faults the Cole's Captain and Crew http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/09/world/09NAVY.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: downscope@earthlink.com Subject: E Boats Whatever they were called, they were one fine class of boats. I am in the middle of building a 1/35th scale S-100 class for RC. No, not the crappy 32nd Parallel thing, but the Azimut kit. For those of you not familiar with the Azimut Schnellboote, it has a fine fiberglass hull with beautiful resin castings for everything, including the decks. That was where the problem came in in making it RC. The deck castings were so think and heavy that it would have made a good submarine built as is. I milled out all the deck castings (some areas were almost 3/4" thick) to 1/8" or less thickness. Burned out 2 Dremels doing it. Also hollowed out all the other castings. Right now I have running gear in place (2 Graupner 400 motors - couldn't stand the weight of 3 as per prototype - middle prop is a dummy) and am putting the decks on. What a beautiful kit. The resin castings are some of the finest I've ever seen - no bubbles, thins, hollows or pinholes at all. I'll send photos when done. My question - does anyone have any descriptions or photos of markings on the S-100 class other than the Prowling Panther (Long's boat) or the "S" boat? Merry Christmas to All, Kevin Wenker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: downscope@earthlink.com Subject: Model Warship Journal?? Has issue 2 of the Model Warship Journal ever come out? Also, can't seem to find the URL for them. Can someone provide it. Thanks Kevin Wenker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: HGYL@aol.com Subject: Re: FIRST SHIP Tony Ireland's piece on his experiences on the training ship "General Botha" made good reading. I followed him 17 years later when it had become a "stone frigate" at Gordon's Bay. Apart from that, evrything else was virtually exactly as Tony has described. "Bothie" Boys are spread well around the world, Tony in Oregon, me in Massachusetts. I didn't know there was another one who subscribes to this list. Any other former shipmates lurking out there? Harold Lincoln -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Demian Alcazar" Subject: graff spee Hello, I'm a tank modeler engaging in a new project to build the P1000 tank, a 2000 ton monster 35 meters long that the germans thought up in 1942 but never got around to building, I've been trying to find some line drawings of the Graff Spee's turret since the turret of this tank would have been based on it, can anyone direct me to a webpage or send me a scan of a line drawing? I'm having trouble reconciling the drawings I have with the real thing, the turret has been somewhat modified so I'd like to see what I can do to make the drawings I'm making more realitic and agreeable with the original design Regards, Demian Alcazar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Pearl Harbor stuff Gosh, being asked if I know anything..... Here are some links to Midget Sub Search Stories: http://starbulletin.com/2000/09/08/news/story4.html http://starbulletin.com/2000/09/28/news/story9.html http://starbulletin.com/2000/09/15/news/story12.html http://starbulletin.com/2000/11/24/news/story8.html Has the Arizona ever been filmed from underneath? Yes, many times. The National Park Service does regular surveys of the hull's condition. The most recent discovered that it is deteriorating at a faster pace than previously imagined. The collected fuel oil over the years changes composition into something more acidic, they believe, and it is eating the ship from the inside out. NPS has published a number of scholarly publications on this problem. This round of Dec. 7 commemorations found at least six documentary companies filming; I was involved with two of them. One doc in the works deals specifically with "Preserving the Arizona," so you'll see much underwater footage on the History Channel later this spring. Don Pruel's model of the Akagi and Brad Sekigawa's models of the aerial launch are breathtaking; I had the privilege of gluing on a few of the 300-plus figures, and of ragging Don because there was no one inside the bridge. He borrowed my long tweezers and placed a couple guys in the bridge through the back entryway! I'll put up some snapshots of the model in a day or so at the Museum Modeleer website. Burl Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 808-263-6087 buzz@aloha.net A historical interpretation company. Visit our web sites at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ and http://www.PacificHistory.net "He's supposed to be dead. This is vexing. I am terribly vexed." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: GKingzett@aol.com Subject: Re: Vents I hope we are not in the dark here. MV stands for MUSHROOM Vents Gary -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Japanese aircraft colors Colors are simple....IJN shipborne carried IJN N2 Green on the upper surfaces, A/N 1 Light Gray on the undersurfaces, with black cowlings and anit-glare panels. I have scans of the specific patterns based on the aircraft type if you them. IJN ship board aircraft did not carry camo schemes like you saw on many of the carrier based aircraft. Old Humbrol, and Gunze have the the most accurate shades of these colors. Jeff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: SMML Trivia The first USN warship to be manned by African-Americans was non other than a PC-461 Class Patrol Craft. Since I'm at the office, I don' t have the hull number in front me to verify, but it's listed in Bill Veigle's book. Don't make me drag out another series of trivia questions.... Jeff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: U 505 weapons fit Franz Aigner asks: >> What was U 505's AA outfit at the time of capture? << 2x 2-cm Zwillingslafetten (twin 2-cm on pedestal mounts, no shields) 1x 3.7-cm M42 in Lafette LM 42 U. (looks a bit like a single Bofors with splinter shield) No deck gun. Incidentally, there is some superb color film footage of the capture, saw it on the History Channel but didn't tape it. Drat!! Nice dark blue-grey paint scheme. Excellent short reference book with diagrams of these weapons: "Vom Original zum Modell UBoottyp IXc" by Kohl and Niestle. Also recommend their book on the Type VII. I think WEM sells these books. Caroline? Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: isublett@home.com Subject: Tony Ireland's First Ship Wow! What a terrific story. Pirie Sublett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "John Rule" Subject: Trivia OK I may be a bit late. However by way of an addition to Chris Langtree's trivia question, there is another navy who named a ship after Eugene de Savoie. None other than the Royal Navy, who had a monitor of the Lord Clive Class of 1915 named Prince Eugene. That must be worth a Brownie Point. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "John Rule" Subject: HP Models This appears to be a prolific producer of resin kits according their lists. Can any SMMLies comment on their general quality. They show an extensive range on their website but no photos. Thanks, John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "FCR" Subject: Re: Fleet Boat Black Hello again >>Look in the Floquil model railroad paint line for weathered black. It is a very dark gray (grey). << I don't know if the following references are correct but were they are: Measure 9: Dull Black: Floquil - #818602 Armory - GG-004 Hope this helps Try the to contact http://www.shipcamouflage.com/ Regards Filipe C. Ramires Lisboa, PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "FCR" Subject: Re: Models other than ships Hello to all I believe that we are all apologize. I also built planes and tanks once. I only start to build ships 5/6 years ago (yes I see the light). However, since I always wanted to build a seaplane I started now to build a Duck just to see if I am still capable to build planes. By the way, today I already bought another seaplane model (a Letov S328 just for curiosity). Still I prefer things with hulls, turrets, guns, super-structures and torpedo-tubes. Its just to get some diversity or I will start to have nightmares with me building ships. Regards, Filipe C. Ramires Lisboa, PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Marc Flake Subject: Bringin' the kids up right I'm in big trouble now. Went out shopping for a birthday present for my 3-year-old and found this great, huge rubber/plastic 31" long Independence-class supercarrier complete with a six-plane diecast airgroup. I knew he'd love it. Lugged the big ole box upstairs and got one of those icy stares from the beloved wife. "Where are we going to put that thing?" Well, that took me back a few decades. Anyway, I'm being stubborn and won't take it back. But I'll have to hold out a whole week. I'm just trying to get the boy started out righ--on ship models. Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: maeisen@erols.com Subject: Review of HMS Laforey (1942): Additional Comments Folks: Having had some more time to examine the HP Models HMS Laforey kit, I have a few additional observations to make: 1) While the kit seems to be a pretty accurate depiction of most L-M class destroyers, the Laforey kit is NOT correct for a destroyer leaders like HMS Laforey or HMS Milne, which should have the extended aft deckhouse. The Laforey kit has the smaller aft deckhouse found on most of the ships of this class. So be forewarned. The kit will build into a very nice representation of most of the ships in the L-M class, but not the class leaders, Laforey or Milne. Likewise, the instructions show HMS Laforey fitted with an HF/DF antenna on the mainmast, but as far as I can tell, Laforey was not equipped with this item in 1942. 2) The kit builds up very nice, and it was easier to remove some of the delicate resin parts from the carrier film than I thought it would be. The resin used is very stiff, and not at all brittle, so even though some of the fine parts experienced rough handling during removal form the carrier film, none broke. Still, do be careful! I will be doing some additional research in the coming days on the accuracy and appearances issue, and will share with you my findings. Still, she's a gem of a kit and I heartily recommend it. Yours truly, Michael Eisenstadt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Vern Wilson" Subject: SMML Trivia The only US vessel that I could readily think of that had an African-American crew (Except for the officers) was the USS Mason (DE-529). It was a WWII Evarts Class Destroyer. There is really great book about it titled "Proudly We Served". They reminded me of the Tuskegee Airmen with all the discrimation and racism they were up against. Vern Wilson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: Robert & Rose Brown Subject: Back dating Tone/Chikuma Hi Mike: I did a 1941/42 Tone from the Fujimi 1/700 kit, which represents Tone in 1945. I used the drawings found in the excellent Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War as a guide. There is also an article in Warship Vol XI. There aren't too many changes, mostly the AA mounts. Specifically: Remove the circles for the quarterdeck AA mounts. I did this by sanding the whole area smooth, rescribed the linoleum deck lines, and scratchbuilt new bollards and hatch covers. She only carried 6 twin 25mm mounts, 2 on the platform immediately in front of the bridge, 2 on the platform aft of the funnel, and 2 on the platform beside the mainmast. I used the Skywave twin mounts. You can add torpedo mounts under the catapult deck, 4 triple mounts were carried. The box art shows which hull openings had the torpedo mounts. Make the foremast a proper tripod by putting in cross braces between the mast and the main brace. Do the same with the aft mast. There is a famous photo of Chikuma taken at Santa Cruz showing a hinomaru on the 2nd turret. They probably weren't in use at the time of Pearl Harbour, but I put one on anyways as it looks rather striking. Not sure about what aircraft were carried, I used 2 Alfs and 3 Jakes. One thing I was always curious about was whether or not the planes that were used for the reconnaissance ahead of the main raid ever returned to the ship. Does anybody know? That's about it, let me know if I can be of any further assistance. Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: Kenny_II Subject: Flower class corvettes I'm fairly new to the list and I've seen odd comments about these ships, but I saw a 1/72 (1/96?) Revell kit for the HMCS Snowberry today in my local hobby shop and wondered if it was a good kit or not. I don't know much about them, but it's a very big box and I felt it calling to me. Any thoughts? Thanks, K2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: Federalism@aol.com Subject: Japanese Heavy Cruiser ATAGO I know I saw a kit on this years ago. What is the story now? Do you know who made it and is it still available? Thanks, Cecil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Models other than ships I probably build as much aircraft as I do ships. it is just a natural combination. Really the addition of a corsair or spad (A-1) with its wings folded next to a model of a carrier is as great accent. I mean really, that is what a carrier is built for to carry, aircraft. Why not also have models of the aircraft they carry. And the good news is just like model ships are becoming more accurate so are model aircraft. Some of them are unbelievably detail and there are some really awsome decal sheets out there. So I think none of use should worry about betraying our fellow SMMLies. It is just an extention of our model displays. Mike NAVYDAZE -Naval and Aviation Artist -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: maeisen@erols.com Subject: Washington DC area SMMLcon Folks: The Washington DC area SMMLcon will be held today, Sunday, December 10, from 1-3 pm, at Nostalgic Plastic, a hobby shop in Silver Spring, Maryland. Nostalgic Plastic is located at 2425 Linden Lane, Silver Spring, Maryland.It is about 5 minutes south of the DC beltway. To get there, take the DC Beltway (I-495) to Silver Spring, and exit at Georgia Avenue SOUTH. Merge onto Georgia Avenue, continue south for less than a minute, pass the stop light at Seminary Place, continue straigh another hundred feet or so, then turn right at the second light (i.e. the next light) onto Seminary Road (do not be confused by the sign for Columbia Blvd; the right turn at the second light is indeed Seminary Road). Go down Seminary Road a minute or so, and continue straight onto Linden Lane when Seminary Road veers off to the left at the elementary school. Continue down Linden Lane a minute or so more until you get to the strip mall on the right, and pull into the parking lot there. Nostalgic Plastic is located at 2425 Linden Lane, and Nostalgic Plastic Automotive, where we will be meeting, is located at 2417 Linden Lane. If you find yourself going over an overpass and at the Walter Reade Army Medical Clinic Annex, you've gone too far by a few hundred feet. If you get lost, you can call the store at (301)565-0565, and they should be able to help you with directions. See you later! Michael Eisenstadt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume