Subject: SMML VOL 1124 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 00:51:00 -0800 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Look what I got!! 2: Amati U-Boat kit 3: Bainbridge 4: Re: Higgins questions 5: "Chin Yuan" info 6: Re: Ken Goldman's Brass Monkey Story ! 7: Re: IJN Kaitens and Paul Kemp 8: It was a Great Life in the Navy! 9: A couple questions 10: Incredible web resource 11: NNT? 12: Re: Hold and fold 13: Fleet Gods Forgot 14: Absolutely tiddly??? 15: Re: Christmas gifts 16: Re: Look what I got!! 17: Re: Miata 18: Re: Under the tree 19: Ironclads 20: Re: Amati - 1/72 U-Boot Type VIIb 21: What I got for Christmas 22: Re: Fleet Sub Questions 23: Re: Amati Type VII 24: Re: Austro-Hungarian battleship colors 25: Re: USSR Destroyer 26: Re: Naval Lore 27: Railway Gauge 28: Re: Photo etch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Edward Sumerfield Subject: Re: Look what I got!! >> Mistress Lorna asked: >> So ......... Did anyone get any cool plastic or resin under the tree this year? << Well, both are obliquely related to ships, so here goes: the guy I love/live with gave me an Accurate Miniatures SBD for my growing CV-10 collection, and an Academy Silverplate B-29 so I can build "Dave's Dream," which dropped the Able bomb during Operation Crossroads. I'm very lucky to have him. What a guy! :) << I am rather new to this game but I think that my Christmas present would fall into the resin category? I was given a Swift 1805, my first non-snap together model. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: Amati U-Boat kit Enrico asked about the Amati - 1:72 U-Boot Type VIIb. I have not seen this model kit personally, however I did see a photo of it in the Model Expo catalog and I was not impressed. There was something definately wrong with the stern proportions, it looked too thick and fat. For the price, I did not consider it worth further investigation. Hopefully the manufacturer corrected the problem. I would definately take a decent plan to the hobby store and compare the hull to the kit before buying, since this would be difficult to correct. Also check the flooding slots in the deck against the plans, as this is typically problematic with U-Boat models. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: hjbosma Subject: Bainbridge Hello, A couple of months ago I had to disappoint one of you because the offered Bainbridge from BWN was already gone. Now the man to which I sold the kit preferred the cruiser Northampton instead so if you still want that little old ship please send me a mail. (sorry I lost your address) Hans Bosma -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: Re: Higgins questions Thank you SMMLies! >> Not enough information - it could be any of the latter versions, from about '43 on - and some earlier boats were retrofitted with heavier armaments - (also, you mean 2 dual .50 MG mounts, don't you?)<< Yes, I do. >> It could be a PT-200 subclass OR a PT-625 series. But where are the turrets located? On the earlier boats, they were located forward on the cockpit and further back on the later boats. << Addition: I have a pic of a PT-265 that looks very different. 40mm on the stern; 20mm on the bow and behind the deckhouse, MGs aside of it and on the deckhouse (centered?) >> I have a drawing of "Higgins 78ft PT-boat", but I donīt know which. It could be the 71, 197, 265, 450, 625, 791 series. My boat shows a 40mm aft, 2x20mm; 2 MG; 4 torpedos without tubes and radar. << >> BTW, what type of drawings are these? Are they commercially drafted or official plans and is there any dated identification on them in the way of draftsman's info in the title block etc? << Itīs a line drawing copied (out of a book?) by a visitor of my homepage. I canīt reach him anymore to ask him personally. All text around has been removed. Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://sites.netscape.net/friedkappes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: "Chin Yuan" info According to the photo in A.Mach article "The Chinese Battleships" published in "Warship International" "Chin Yuan" in Japanese hands was either very light gray or more likely overall white with black line running level with the top of the main superstructures, tops of barbettes and where fo'c's'le sides meet the deck. There also were black bands on the funels tops. Feel free to contact me off list if you need any more info. For Christmas I was presented with Seals Models "Mikasa",great little model, and what's more from sprues it appears that more Japanese pre-dreadnoughts may be on the way !!! Goody,goody!!! Regards D.P. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Andy Airlie Subject: Re: Ken Goldman's Brass Monkey Story ! As an SMML virgin, I've been reading the list over the last week and been delighted at the cameraderie shown, wished I'd found out about it sooner! The Brass monkey story was absolutely brilliant, still can't get the smile of my face. On a more technical note, I missed out on a second hand copy of A.Raven's KGV book at WEM, I have the V.E Tarrant book which is much recommended, but believe Raven's book to be 'The Bible on KGV's' is this so?, and does anyone know where I might obtain one? Best Wishes, Andy Airlie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: john.baumann@talk21.com Subject: Re: IJN Kaitens and Paul Kemp May I suggest a book titled "Suicide Squads" which is an excellent read and full of historical facts. There are 19 "P Kemp"'s shown in the Directory covering the Greater London Area. A lot of people now prefer to be ex-Directory. If you have any more leads - for example is he an author, is he associated to any UK museum, etc, - then I will check again. Regards, John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "J. London" Subject: It was a Great Life in the Navy! For those presently serving in the Navy who think life is tough read on. The following is on paper watermarked 1805 (the year of Trafalgar):- ORDERS. Established for the well Government of His Majesty's Ships, and Preservation of good Order among the respective Commanders, Officers, and Seamen, serving His Majesty in the same. THAT whatsoever Person serving His Majesty in any of his said Ships, shall be heard to Swear, Curse, or Blaspheme the Name of God, shall upon Proof thereof made, forfeit for every such Offence, the full Value of one Day's Pay, according to the Capacity wherein they respectively Serve. II. THAT whosoever shal be found guilty of Drunkenness, shall for every such Offence undergo the like Forfeiture, except the Commanders, and other Commission or Warrant Officers, whose first Offence of this Kind, shall, upon Proof thereof made before the Principal Officers and Commissioners of His Majesty's Navy, and the same found sufficient upon their Report thereof, to be punished by being rendered incapable of holding any further Command or Office in His Majesty's Service. III. THAT every Man serving his Majesty for able Seaman's Pay, or under, who shall be convicted of telling a Lie, shall be punished by being hoisted up on the Main-stay with the Fore-braces, having a broom and a shovel tied to his Back, where he shall continue half an Hour, every Man crying out a Lyar, a Lyar; and for the Week following it shall be his Duty to make clean the Ship's Head and Sides without Board, according to the antient Practice of the Navy; and where the Person so offending shall receive greater Wages, than that of an able Seaman, he shall for the same, forfeit half the Value of a Day's pay, according to the respective Capacity wherein he serves. IV. THAT he, that shall be found guilty of Theft, shall be, at the first opportunity of doing the same, towed a Shore, and obliged out of his Wages to make satisfaction to the Party injured, to the full Value of the Goods stolen, and receive such further Punishment for the said Offence, as by the Commander of the Ship shall be thought expedient. V. IF any person shall presume to lie on shore (without leave from his Superior Officer) he shall forfeit for the first Time of his so offending, two Day's Pay: for the second four; for the third a Week's, according to the Capacity wherein he serves His Majesty; and for the fourth to be discharged as a Runaway upon the Ship's Book. VI. THAT he that is found in the Cabin, or in any Place between decks when his Turn is to be on the Watch, unless otherwise appointed by his Superior Officer, shall forfeit the value of One Day's Pay, according to his capacity, as aforesaid. VII. HE that is found asleep on the Deck in his Watch, or shall have a Candle in his Cabin, or between Decks, when the Watch is set, unless it be by Command of his Captain, or other Superior Officers, shall receive such Punishment for his said Offence, as by the Commander of the Ship shall be thought to be reasonable. VIII. THAT he that pisseth between the Decks, or otherwise easeth himself, either there, or in any other Place than such is appointed on that Behalf, shall for the said Offence be brought to the Capston, and there receive on his bare Back so many Lashes, according to the Practice of the Sea (not exceeding twelve) as the Commander of the Ship shall think fit. IX. THAT the Commander of each Ship, do take care to call upon the Clerk of the Acts of His Majesty's Navy, for printed Copies of these Rules, and not only see the same fairly pasted upon a Board, and hung up in some convenient Place in the Steerage, where every Man may readilly come to peruse the same; but to cause the said Rules to be publickly read over in the hearing of the whole Ship's Company, once at least, in every Month during the Voyage. X. That when such Proof shall be made before the Commander of any of His Majesty's Ships, that any Officer or Seaman under his Command, have committed any of the Offences herein enumerated, and that the same cannot conveniently be brought before a Court-Martial to be tried, according to the Laws in that Behalf established by Act of Parliament in the Thirteenth Year of the Reign of King CHARLES the II. the said Commander do take strict Care, as well to see corporal Punishment herein provided duly and solemnly executed, as to keep perfect Account, in Writing, of what Forfeitures of Wages shall, by Virtue hereof, have been incurred by any Person during the Voyage; and to deliver the said Account to the Comptroller of His Majesty's Navy, at the Pay of his Ship's Company, in order to the defaulking the same out of the Wages of every Offender, to be disposed of to the Use of the Chest. (Teape, Printer, Tower-hill, London, for His Majesty's Stationery-Office) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Douglas Subject: A couple questions I have two questions that I hope someone can help me with: 1. What color are the waters of the English Channel...I've never seen a color photo of them, but I would imagine them to be a sort of greenish-blue, as with most coastal areas. I'm preparing to paint the water for my German S-Boot and would like to replicate the color of the Channel. 2. I'd like to build a model of a German VP-boot (Vorpostenboot) used as either an auxilary minesweeper or as an escort. I have Paul Beaver's two books ("German Destroyers and Escorts" and "E-boats and Coastal Craft", and am wondering if anyone knows of other pubs or books dealing with the subject - or even a website. I'm thinking of using the old Revell Russian Fishing Trawler as a base, then scratchbuilding the rest. Has anyone out there ever built one of these vessels? Thanks, Doug Bauer Poway, CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Incredible web resource Doug wrote: >> In fact, if you link to http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ you'll find information on a wide range of projects from many countries. << Doug I couldn't agree more - what a fantastic and comprehensive list of links and current/future ship resources. Thanks! Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Ned Barnett Subject: NNT? Please send me contact info - I placed an order with them months ago (for the Grosser Kurfurst - they had a fantastic deal) - sent it by e-mail and never heard back ... (at least I think it was NNT - that sounds right). If I've got the wrong group, and anybody remembers the Polish firm that had the great deal on this kit, please correct me. Thanks Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Hold and fold >> I have one and I can say without hesitation that it does what it says, it truely makes bending small parts from PE a lot easier. All the same bends can be done without it but it sure makes it easier and I think more accurate. Long curves and bends like main rails still have to be done by eye and trial and error, << I have the original version which was simpler than the current version. Is an upgrade worth while?? Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Fleet Gods Forgot John Snyder wrote: >> Winslow, W.G. "The Fleet the Gods Forgot: The U.S. Asiatic Fleet in World War II." Annapolis: USNI Press, 1982. Out of print, but worth finding. << It's not out of print anymore - the USNI has a new line of trade paperbacks (Bluejacket books) that reprints great old titles - this one is at Amazon for $17 ... Thanks for the clue, John - it's already on order. Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Absolutely tiddly??? Is that a good thing? Kit-review-wise, I mean? As a hopelessly provincial American, that sounds like you want to take it out back and beat the crap out of it with a baseball bat - but since you don't have baseball over there, I'm willing to be educated ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Christmas gifts I did get some modeling tools for Christmas. My wife came through with a new Dremel tool and a drill press for same. My Dremel tool is over 20 years old and none of the new attachments work on it. Even after she got me the AOTS books earlier last summer! See, I told you guys I could count on her. I'm in the process of designing a new model kit and these tools are a must to get the job done. I also decided to treat myself to a new model kit. After all the wonderful reviews I've read about the WEM Ben Stoddart kit, I just had to have one. Hopefully I'll have it ready for Chicago, we'll see. Rusty White Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ We now accept Visa & MasterCard world wide via Pay Pal "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Shane Weier Subject: Re: Look what I got!! Mistress Lorna asks: >> So ......... Did anyone get any cool plastic or resin under the tree this year? << Well, yes, but not exactly on topic in this forum. Viewers of my few completed ship models will be well aware that they are emphaticly not my main area of expertise. So (as the result of hinting which almost rose to the level of outright badgering) I was lucky to receive a nice new Roden Pfalz D.III (a WW1 biplane to the uninterested ;-) ) OTOH I did receive an on topic gift of great consequence just a week ago, in the form of a visit to my home by list member Volker Hausler and his family. We ate a pleasant barbeque meal, discussed models and invaded my modelling room to discuss progress of my current build which *is* on topic - the ICM Konig I heartily recommend to all members that should they have the chance to meet other members in their travels they take the opportunity - I have yet to be disappointed with the nice people I've met from this and the WW1 modelling list Shane (the elder) Hi, I heartily agree with with that recommendation, whilst on holidays last year & staying with Shane the Elder (what a sight that was when Mistress Lorna or Mistress Megan called "SHANE!!" ;-) ), both Lorna & I managed to catch up with a few SMMLies and it was an extreme pleasure to do so. As for StE's ship models, they are very good, regardless of what he says ;-). I can't wait for him and other SMMLies to submit a few pictures of their models to the SMML Members Models page ;-) Just contact me or Mike Dunn & we'll arrange to have your shots uploaded as soon as possible. Shane the Younger -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Re: Miata To anybody who is thinking of driving in the UK that comes from the US. I give one word of warning ---------------- Robert Hughes! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: Under the tree Santa Claus didn't give me anything, Sinterklaas did. Santa BTW is a cultural mix of the Dutch Sinterklaas (Nicolas of Myra -> 5th of december) and an Anglo-Saxon (?!) Christmas myth. I prefer the original I think. I found a WSW 1/700 Saida under the chimney (not under the tree), which is nearly finished by now. Even though it is one of the older efforts of WSW ist is a very good model with some very fine detail, especially near the anchor chains. I'm thinking about ordering Erzherzog Karl now. Pieter Cornelissen Delft, the Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Sam Pullig Subject: Ironclads I did forget about Burt's books, Have both great books. In reguards to American Battleships 1886-1923 by Reilly and Scheina It is a great book. Takes each class, lots of photos lots of plans, but not enough of any one ship at any one time to build a model. Great book. There is one I think at AbeBooks site for $85.00. $130 is a little high. Haven't checked in a while but I think Burts books were pushing $100 last time I saw one. There are a whole group of books that pre-date our generation that it would be intresting to see or have a list of. Sam Pullig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Steve Sobieralski Subject: Re: Amati - 1/72 U-Boot Type VIIb Enrico: I have built two Amati U-boats and, in my opinion, it is a great kit. The kit materials are cast resin and a lot of photo-etched brass. The hull is a one piece resin casting, the upper part of which, except for the extreme bow and stern, is cut away. The cut away portion holds a wood frame, to which is attached the etched brass upper hull sides and deck. This technique effectively replicates the free-flooding void areas below the deck and behind the limber holes of a submarine which are often not well represented on models. The quality of the pieces is excellent - the photo-eteched brass deck is amazing and the deck gun is a small kit in itself (although the cast resin barrel tends to warp, but it is easily replaced with plastic rod) - even the plans are beautiful. All the parts are there and no "scratchbuilding" is really required. There is a degree of fitting,fiddling and fairing needed, particularly in attaching the brass deck and side pieces to the resin hull, but the result is very satisfying - a near museum quality model can be built straight from the box. If you are a moderately skilled modeler you should have no problem and I think you will be very pleased with the kit. Steve Sobieralski BTW, if you buy it contact me off list. I can give you.some hints on fitting the deck that will make it easier. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "James Kloek" Subject: What I got for Christmas What I got for Christmas was neither plastic nor resin, was a really great gift, and it was free! I live in Rochester, NY, and one of the museums here is the George Eastman House. This is the house of the founder of Eastman Kodak, and attached to it is a building housing an extensive collection of original photographs. Knowing my interests, my wife called and asked if they had any WWII photographs. It turns out the answer was yes, and she asked if she could arrange for me to go see them. Again the answer was yes. Of interest to this list is a large collection of photographs from Edward Steichen. Steichen spent significant time on the second Lexington taking pictures during the war, and was also apparently a supervisor of sorts of combat photographers with the Navy. I managed to get through only two of the ten boxes of photos in 3 hours. But these are large black and white prints, and were just incredible. There were several images which have been widely reproduced, and a large number that were completely new to me. The examples I saw ranged from Santa Cruz to Okinawa. I can't wait to go back and see the other 8 boxes. These photos are kept in the archives under controlled conditions, and you have to wear cotton gloves to touch them. The interesting thing is that they are completely unannotated, and the people at the Eastman House have little clue as to what most of them are about. I had my daughter with me, and was explaining to her what they are about, and the guy working there asked if I wanted to catalogue them for him. I told him to make me an offer...... In short, a great gift from my wife, even if it is not plastic or resin. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Fleet Sub Questions >> Where was the 3" gun located on the early E-boat built Gatos? Forward or Aft of the conning tower. Jim Corley and I discussed this earlier, and placed it forward of the conn, but the show confused me. Looked like they started out aft. Any good evidence on Gato herself, 12/41 to 6/42? << Submarines began the war with one 3-inch/50 gun facing aft abaft the conning tower. The drawing I have of Gato (SS-212) shows her as completed, with full (no cut down) conning tower and a 3 in/50 gun abaft the conning tower. She ended the war with a cut down fairwater and a single 5/25, still facing aft. Most of the pre-WWII subs had rear facing guns, on the theory that these would be used for defense while moving away from an attacker. Foundations strong enough for a 5-in gun were provided both fore and aft, and later in the war, many subs were equipped with forward guns. As skippers became more aggressive, the advantages of a forward firing gun for surface attacks,and the Submarine Officers Conference in Feb., 1942, recommended moving the guns forward. This was done at a skippers discretion, and 4-in/50 guns from S-boats were often installed. There are cases of submarines near the end of the war that had both fore and aft 5/25 guns. Later, a 5/51 was installed on several submarines. The definitive 5/25 came into service in Aug., 1944. >> What is the correct pronunciation for Gato? I've always used Gaa toe. History Channel used something like Ga Tao. << I believe the first one, 2 syllables. >> Same with Balao They used Ba Lay o << 3 syllables-that's correct. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Amati Type VII >> does anybody know something about this kit (i.e. accuracy, quality, amount of scratchbuilding required,...)? I have seen it in a hobby shop here in Milan, and I'm quite fascinated by this really big one: the problem (typical...) is that it's quite expensive (the equivalent of about 200$) and so I'd like to have some information before making the investment. Thanks and happy New Year (I know I'm quite late...)! << This is a resin kit, and you need to scribe in the torpedo shutters, among other items. I understand there are also some problems fitting the brass deck to the hull. I have to look around; there was a review of a build-up someplace that went through some of the problems. Probably a very good kit, but requires some skill and time investment to get it right. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: isublett@home.com Subject: Re: Austro-Hungarian battleship colors For Michael Zimmerman: While I don't have anything from Warship Int'l. on colors of AH warships, Falk Pletcher in his article in Plastic Ship Modeler 1997/2 recommends Humbrol 31 for dark gray green. Hope this helps. Pirie Sublett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Steve Sobieralski" Subject: Re: USSR Destroyer I also have the Trumpeter 1/200 "Courageous" former Soviet "destoryer" kit. I got it at my local (Tampa) hobby shop, along with several other 1/200 kits of other Chinese navy ships, and while its a good shop, they're not in the habit of stocking rare or esoteric items so I would assume these kits are readily available. I think the cost wasaround $25.00. There appear to be about 9 or 10 different kits offered, but some are obviously the same ship with a different name or configuration. The quality is pretty good. I've never had one, so I can't compare it to a Tamiya ship kit, but they are as good as or better than the Nichimo 1/200 Japanese destroyer kits. The main shortcomings are ladders and railings, both of which appear to be modeled after prototypes constructed of 2x4's, but these are easily replaced with generic photo-etched items. As Mike Leonard said they come with electric motors already in place and wired, and a nice little installation too, if you're into that. The Soviet destroyer represents one of four Gordi class ships turned over to the Chinese in the mid-50's. There were 29 ships in this class built between 1935-43 to an Italian design. Being Italian, they were designed very lightly and were not well suited to the Arctic or North Pacific conditions in which they often operated. Ten were lost in the war. I am not sure where the "Courageous" nomenclature comes from. None of the Russian names match the word for courageous in my Russian dictionary, so perhaps this represents the Chinese name. I believe the only major change the Chinese made to these ships was to remove the torpedo tubes and replace them with missle launchers, and since the kit has torpedo tubes, I assume that it can be built to represent a fairly accurate model of a WW2 era Soviet destroyer. Steve Sobieralski -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: MDDoremus@aol.com Subject: Re: Naval Lore Ken, Great story, BUT.... it needs a beverage alert. I'm going to have to spend hours getting the coke out of my keybaaoer. Mark Doremus Eden Prairie, MN ROTFLMSAO Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "John Rule" Subject: Railway Gauge Roland, your dissertation on the above topic (SMML 1123) was indeed off topic but was nevertheless very entertaining. John Rule Hi John, Oh, I don't know, you're forgetting the WEM 1/700 Dockyard Matey's set ;-) Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Nuno Andresen Portela" Subject: Re: Photo etch >> I am VERY new to PE and I really dont want to trash any more of this lovely stuff because of my lack of experience. Is/are there ANY good reference works on this medium? << Try: http://www.eduard.com/frame_info.htm It's a brief introduction to photo-etch made by Colin Adair of the Eduard company. Althought not aimed for the ship modeler, it's a good and easy reading. Nuno Andresen Portela Portugal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume