Subject: SMML VOL 1127 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:46:35 -0800 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: HMS Dreadnought - What colour art thou? 2: torpedoschlepper 3: ship drawings identification 4: RAF launches 5: RN Submarine Losses in the Pacific Campaign 6: Tall Stories 7: SMML Clause did nuthin' for me, and no brass monkeys 8: IJN Kaga 'Goalposts' 9: what colour english channel 10: Re: Inchon 11: Re: Swift hull pins 12: The Italian Connection 13: 'Tiddlies' 14: Re: shotguns 15: GERMAN RAIDER ATLANTIS 16: NNT, and other stuff 17: IJN Kaga Flight Deck Accessories 18: The Boat 19: Re: Mystery object on Kaga 20: Re: Tall Stories 21: Webb ship drawings -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: New URL for Warship Models Underway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Steve Holton Subject: HMS Dreadnought - What colour art thou? I've started to build the Steel Navy 1:350 HMS 1907 Dreadnought. I'm now puzzling over the color scheme for the hull. The AOTS for the Dreadnought shows only waterline drawings and colour illustrations. These show a grey upper hull and a broad black band at the waterline. This could be a boot topping or a solid black lower hull. There are photographs in the books (and others) showing the dreadnought and others of the period in dry dock. They pretty clearly show a two color scheme, in Black&White or course, they show a lighter upper hull and what seems pretty clearly a single darker color for the lower hull. On the other hand there are also pictures showing a single colour hull. The Warship Profile #1 on the Dreadnought has a color illustration with the "standard" hull Red, Black Bott toping and Grey upper hull, even though it includes photos that appear to have not boot topping. The few existing photos of models I've seen seem to show no consensus. Can anyone shed light on this? I have a suspicion - based only on guesswork that boot topping came in with the adoption of Oil? Perhaps in this era there was a fair variation in paint schemes?? Thanks, Steve Holton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: torpedoschlepper In Gröner "Die deutschen Kriegssschiffe 1815-1945" Vol. 5 some "Torpedoschlepper" from 1879, 1886, etc are shown. Were they torpedo recovery vessels? Or what did they do? How did they recover the fired torpedos? I see no davits on them. Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://sites.netscape.net/friedkappes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: ship drawings identification Some ship drawings I have in Orazio Curti´s Modelli Navali and Wolfram zu Mondfeld´s Historische Schiffsmodelle, I can´t identify. Any ideas? - 120 gun ships, launched between 1760-1810, 3 galeries: names and figureheads please. - were Marlborough and Wellington sisterships? What were there figureheads? - 106 gun ports, figurehead: rider on a horse, 3 galeries - 92 guns, female? angel, 3 galeries - 70 guns, crowned animal, 2 galeries Or were they just illustrations by the author, not based on historic ships? Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://sites.netscape.net/friedkappes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: RAF launches If there is anybody who´s an expert for RAF launches, please go to http://www.nexusonline.com/pages/nexusdirect.cgi click on "...enter...", then "Modelling boats and ships", "plans", "RAF launches". Could you tell me, which launches are shown, and a litle info on them: entry into service. Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://sites.netscape.net/friedkappes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Ramires, Filipe C" Subject: RN Submarine Losses in the Pacific Campaign Hello folks Since I haven't my models material and tools to play with in the UK I am again dedicating to write some articles about Naval History. Currently I am almost finishing one article about the Japanese Anti-Submarine Warfare and The Allied Submarine Losses in the Pacific. I have already finished the parts related to the USN and to the RNN submarines but now I that I start with the Royal Navy I have some doubts. I have some weak information about the loss of only two british submarines in the Pacific Campaign (one to aircrafts and one to surface ships). Does anyone know what submarines were this and when and how they were sunk? By the way if you have further information about other RN submarines sunk in the Pacific just tell me something. Thanks in advance. Regards Filipe C. Ramires (in the cold of the UK) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Kerry L. Jang" Subject: Tall Stories The stories about the poor morale of the sailors in the Imperial Chinese Navy have been around for a long time. In short, the morale problem was that the Imperial Government, under the Dowanger Empress Tzu-Hsi appropriated all the money for the Navy to buy quick firing guns, explosive shell, etc to the building of the Summer Palace in Beijing, and for the celebrations of her Golden Jubilee. The famous statesman Li Hung Chang who founded the "modern" navy (he is also notable for outlawing the illegal opium trade in China, sparking the "Opium Wars") was powerless to stop the appropriation of the money. Senior officers aboard the ships them started to sell off shells (likely the powder in them and the metal) to not only line thier pockets, but to pay for the basic upkeep of the ships. In has been reported that to save money, they used ienxpensive kerosene to thin paint, leaving a highly flammable surface. It all culminated in the Battle of the Yalu. Despite heroic acts and attempts to beat the Japanese, the lack of explosive shell caused Chinese to lose the battle. Actually, the battle itself was a draw, both sides retired, it wasn't until the Japanese torpedo boats got into the harbour the Chinese ships were using was the Ting Yuen sunk and the Chen Yuen taken. A melodramatic Chinese movie about the corruption of Beijing and the Battle of the Yalu is available on VCD and DVD. Its entitled, "The War of 1984". Kerry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: SMML Clause did nuthin' for me, and no brass monkeys I didn't get no nuthin' for models or tools for models this Christmas. I did get some nice stuff, though, so I'm not complaining. Still, I went and bought myself some prezzies: Heller Foch, to become the Brasilian Sao Paulo (I could use some 1/400 A-4s and S-3s; even one of each.) Robert Sumrall's "Iowa Class Battleships" A 4 bedroom home, one of which will become my long-desired hobby room, though I'll have to share it with my lovely wife. (Who had no hobbies until I suggested she try one. Now she has a doll house, trains, _and_ scrapbooks. Sigh.) On the subject of brass monkeys and iron cannonballs, an aquaintance who is a metallurgist did the math and determined that there isn't enough difference in shrinkage to cause them to spill their contents, so the term is most likely not based on that. Joe Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: allan Subject: IJN Kaga 'Goalposts' Re. The 'goalposts' seen aft on Kaga. I had a Japanese caption to a photo of this structure, translated into English. Kaga had two-storey main hangars and even a third storey aft. Aft she had a two-storey hangar lift. Photos and film show the aft lift raised above deck to unload aircraft and/or equipment from the second level of the hangar lift. Hope this is useful, Allan P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Alan Bickerton" Subject: what colour english channel greenish blue is about right but it could as well be blueish green or even a greyish greenish blue etc etc once when on holiday on the IOW it was actually blue but this is about as common as the moon of the same colour -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Re: Inchon Hi SMMLies, As for the question about the USS Inchon LPH / MCS 12, she was my home for 3.5 years, 1980-83. I did contact the man looking for a cruise book but I don't have the years he is looking for. Inchon was the last of the seven LPH's built. The only major different between Inchon and her sisters is that Inchon has a sponson on each side of the hull, aft end for two LCVP boats. She was converted to a MCS in 1995-96 But on the outside she still looks very much like the LPH. If there is any other Inchoners out there please give me a yell on or off line, Thanx, Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: Swift hull pins Try this coward's way. Carefully, with a small nail set, drive the pins down just enough to make them not project. The next course of planking should then cover the pinheads. Worth a try, anyhow. I recently made a wooden scratch-built hull of a vessel I mistakenly thought was a steel ship. I subsequently found that it was indeed a wooden planked vessel. Scribing lines to emulate planking was a disaster. I then cut some strips and carefully glued them individually to the smooth hull. They looked great. Until I smoothed off the excess glue and found that I had been too careful, and when painted, none of the seams showed, which was not what I was trying to achieve at all! I was trying to have seams show, just a little, to tell the world that this was a wooden planked boat, by golly. All I had accomplished was to make the hull a little wider. It is still smooth! All that fitting work had been wasted. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi! (So Passes the Glory of the World!) Maybe a hundred years from now some of the glue may let go and individual planks thus spring out. Whereas the setting in the display case simulates a dry dock (the keel is resting on a long row of closely spaced blocks and the bilge area is supported by cribbing) I can add a work staging to simulate work being done on the hull in a boatyard. Howzat for positive thinking? Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: The Italian Connection To Italy based SMMLers out there,for a while I am after the 1:50 scale drawings of Duilio (1876).They are listed in a cataloque of "Associazione Navimodelisti Bolognesi" but as they have yet to discover the advantages Internet ordering them from UK is a nightmare. Any bright ideas will be appreciated. Regards D.P. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Joel Labow Subject: 'Tiddlies' >> These were your "Tiddlies" If you owned them, they were a sailors pride and joy and well guarded. << And all these years I thought 'Guarding your Tiddlies' meant something entirely different! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: shotguns >> where's my shotgun when I need it ;-) << You mean you don't keep it in the rear window of your pickup truck like you are supposed to?? :-) Regards, Bradford Chaucer UMPHHHH, no self respecting gamekeeper would be caught dead in a pickup ;-)) Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "DUCKMAN" Subject: GERMAN RAIDER ATLANTIS Does anyone know of a kit of the Atlantis? David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "John Rule" Subject: NNT, and other stuff >> Has anyone out there had successful dealings with NNT. I tried sending an order using their webpage, but I could only access the German version. I went through the motions of placing an order by guessing what the German words meant. However I am not sure if I placed an order for model ships, ordered a ham sandwich or possibly ordered the invasion of Poland. << Thank you all for your assistance in tracking down NNT. I have now contacted them using the email address supplied by Mike Eisenstadt NNTModell@t-online.de . Special thanks, Mike. Fortunately I was in time to cancel the invasion of Poland, but still had to take the ham sandwich. I am now awaiting with eagerness SMS Scharnhorst, HMS Lance, HMS Martin, HMS Roberts and a Hunt Type 3. Hope I'm not disappointed. I received from Pacific Front today the Skywave Takao and Regia Marina Photoetch sets for Italian battleships. Both look excellent. I haven't had a close look at the Takao but the mouldings look beautiful. The Regia Marina photoetch also look great and will serve to complement the resin kits for the Italian Navy from Regia Marina and Delphis which are generally some of the highest quality resin kits on the market and what's more have a very extensive range. Well I've had more than my say for today. Sincerely' John Rule -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SJantscher@aol.com Subject: IJN Kaga Flight Deck Accessories Hi All, I'm having a hard time placing just where I came across this tidbit of information, but I think the walls or screens that are mentioned in a previous post are in fact wind screens. I've tried to find photos from my limited Japanese carrier references with them deployed but have not,. And while the most logical explanation does seem to be a crash barrier, there is some nagging remembrance that they could deploy two or three of these wind fences. That would make much more sense in rough weather than stringing across the barrier (to catch planes in heavy weather?). These wind fences were used much as we use jet blast deflectors today, to prevent mishap further down the deck from the high velocity exhaust and wind across the deck. Another item to support the wind fence idea is that overhead photos of the flight decks show one or two darkened areas crosswise that could be the wind fences in the "at rest", folded down position. I agree that the Japanese did have their version of the "crash barrier" to catch aircraft that missed catching a cross deck pendant, but I think they also had these "wind fences". Any experts out there? Steve Janstcher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "michael thrupp" Subject: The Boat Although I have seen Das Boot the video many times, I have only recently read the book. A GREAT story - forget Forrester, Sabatini, etc, Lothar-Gunther Buchheim obviously walked the walk. Wonderful descritions of seascapes , action at sea , and all (D.H.Lawrence excepted) aspects of mariners lives , plus a crash course for beginners in 1940's submarine technology -what more could you ask. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Henry T Chen" Subject: Re: Mystery object on Kaga Yohan, It's not a crash barrier, although a very intelligent guess. That was my 1st guess too until I researched it much further. Japanese crash barriers on carriers were typically 2-5 meters high,almost always placed around the 1st and 2nd elevators from the front. Kaga had two of those, placed right behind the 2nd elevator between the position of the bridge and the funnel. The picture (and video footages) Paul was refering to had the object positioned much further back, much taller, and much narrower. Like I told Paul off-line, I had a Japanese text description of the object saying that it was the aft elevator. That matched the position and the width of the object. Anyone else got any ideas? Please let us know, it drove me crazy too wondering what it was!! Henry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: Tall Stories >> It was also alleged that some of the main calibre ammunition was sold off to suplement the captain pay!!! Who in a name of Godess would want to buy 305mm shell?? << Hi; I recall reading at one time that it wasn't the shells that were sold. It was the explosive filler that was removed and sold. Then the shells were filled with concrete (cement), a much less explosive substance. Don't recall the exact source, but it sounds much more believable. Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Shane Subject: Webb ship drawings Hi, I've had the following query passed to me by an APMA member: >> Do you know if anyone now handles the Webb range of ship drawings? Used to be an Aussie and had a set for HMAS Albatross that I would like to get...but apparently out of business. Any help appreciated. << If anyone could help, it'd be appreciated Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: New URL for Warship Models Underway Warship Models Underway has a new URL, a whole lot easier to remember and pass along: www.warshipmodelsunderway.com It took months of careful though to craft that domain name... If you haven't been there yet, do stop by when you have a chance. For those who like to build steel era warships to a large scale, and then see them operate, it is the perfect place to get a bit of inspiration, a tip or two, or make contact with those of similar bent. You have to know that anyone who spends hundreds of hours crafting a model, only to put it in one of the most hostile and corrosive environments on earth has to have a screw or two loose! Hope to see you there, Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto Maritime Photography http://warshipphotos.com Warship Models Underway http://members.aol.com/wmunderway/home.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume