Subject: SMML VOL 1132 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 00:15:52 -0800 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Atlantis on eBay! 2: Re: Pennant number R16 3: Shapes on signal halyards 4: Re: WW1 USN Naval Signal Device 5: Re: Black Prince 6: Enterprise book 7: Black Prince 8: Re: WW1 USN naval signal device 9: Re: USN Signal Device 10: Jeanne d'Arc 11: Gato class reference 12: Re: Hunley 13: Yorktown conversion 14: Gato 15: Yorktown 16: Vote for Ocean Liner Models Next Kit Subject 17: Re: Steamer & Sub 18: Scientists will excavate interior of Civil War sub 19: Re: CL Phoenix camo...07Dec41 20: Re: Yorktown 20 mm's 21: Re: Fiume Camouflage Pattern 22: Re: 1/700 Yorktown Conversion 23: Navydaze in Feb Sea Classics issue 24: New Revell S-Boat 25: Re: HMAS Vampire -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: YORKTOWN 2: International Maritime Modeling January 2001 Update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Atlantis on eBay! I've been following the thread on the Atlantis model kit. I remember one guy said he would really like to have one. Well, if want one really bad there's one on eBay right now. You better want it pretty bad though. The price is currently at $73.00 with 9 days left on the auction. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.aol.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=547225398 Flagship Models Inc. Photo Etched Details and Models You can now pay using your Visa / MasterCard Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Re: Pennant number R16 Hi Bob R16 was Crescent. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Shapes on signal halyards >> In photo research related to a WW1 U.S.Naval vessel, I came across a few pictures showing a cone (called a "shape") hoisted, pointy end up,"to block" on a bridge signal halyard. It is a three dimensional device, not a flag........... << >> Can any SMML people advise the message code these various shapes transmitted? This may be a toughie, but I would like to know the code as of the WW1 era, although any period will be of interest. Franklyn Brown << This one's easy: you're looking at "speed cones": three dimensional devices hoisted on the signal halyards, in various combinations (singly, doubly, cones pointed up or down, etc.), especially prevalent on destroyers, to indicate to the other ships in the formation the speed the ship doing the signaling is making. FLETCHER class DDs (and others) had a "speed light" on the aft face of the aft stack which was trainable. This light transmitted the same information to the other ships in the formation. As to the code, I don't know, but one of the best books on destroyer handling, written by a captain of a flush-deck four-stacker, is: Frost, Holloway H., "On a Destroyer's Bridge", United States Naval Institute, Annapolis, MD, 1930. (Rare, out of print, found in a used bookstore for $8.00 U.S.: expect to pay far more). Devoted in its entirety to destroyer handling, this one will teach you how to shove off, back, go ahead, leave a tender, dock, maneuver, cruise, land, anchor, and secure your model destroyer blindfolded. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Member, Nautical Research Guild -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: WW1 USN Naval Signal Device >> In photo research related to a WW1 U.S.Naval vessel, I came across a few pictures showing a cone (called a "shape") hoisted, pointy end up,"to block" on a bridge signal halyard. It is a three dimensional device, not a flag. I understand there were other shapes used as well. The photos are B/W, so I do not know if different colored shapes were used. Can any SMML people advise the message code these various shapes transmitted? << These are "speed cones", used to signal ship's speed to other vessels in formation. If hoisted point up to the two-blocked position, they signaled "going ahead at standard speed." Point up about 2/3 up to the yardarm indicated "going ahead 2/3 standard speed." Point up about 1/3 up to the yardarm indicated "going ahead one-third standard speed." Point up, two-blocked and with a red pennant added indicated "going ahead full speed." Hoisted point down the speed indications are the same, but indicate that the engines are going astern. The use of speed cones was normally discontinued when clear of the harbor. Source: The Bluejackets' Manual, United States Navy, 1940, Tenth Edition.Annapolis: United States Naval Institute, 1940. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises http://www.shipcamouflage.com White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Dimi Apostolopoulos Subject: Re: Black Prince >> I am looking for information on the possible camouflage of the Black Prince in 1943 (late). Found plenty of info re her armament but not her paint job. Same applies to HMS Bangor circa 1942 and HMS Albacore (Algerine class) late war. Any help appreciated. John, I believe that Black Prince's 1943 camouflage consisted of G10, B30 and G45. I am quite certain about the dark and medium tones, but the light one may have been B55. A very nice illustration of her starboard camouflage can be found in Raven/Lenton's Dido Ensign publication. I have seen many starboard views of her from that time but only one portside photo in Derek Howse's "Radar at Sea." I believe that her sister ships Bellona (spring 1944), Diadem (mid 1944), Royalist (fall 1943) and Spartan (late 1943) all wore camouflage schemes that consisted of the same tones. Dimi -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Shirley Sachsen Subject: Enterprise book >> Can anyone make a review about the following book (pictorial content, quality...): USS Enterprise CVAN 65 Commander Naval Air Force Pacific Fleet 1967, by JL Holloway III, published by Boston, MABurdette & Co, first edition 1967 Any coments would be great, as a dealer is asking $242 for this book Thanks in advance. << sounds like a cruisebook to me and if it is, even for a 67 Enterprise, $242 is pretty steep. also, cruisebooks are not good references for the ship itself, but reasonably excellent for the airwing and daily life aboard. usually there's one big foldout picture of the ship and the rest are of air ops, unrep, and the varied liberty ports. each book is unique and inevitably each ship at one time or another has a 'dud' book--it's all dependant on the editors. if you already have a cruisebook in your collection, use it as a gauge for content. and if you're not familiar with cruisebooks, they're like a high school or college yearbook: it's a record of the cruise with photos of the crew, airwing, and day to day ops as a memento of the cruise for the crewmember and family (hence really glorified images of liberty ports :->) only minor details of the ship itself are depicted, and then only as background for the photos of the crew at work. s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Black Prince Hi John Whitley's Cruisers of World War II has an excellent shot of Black Prince's starboard side. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Re: WW1 USN naval signal device >> In photo research related to a WW1 U.S.Naval vessel, I came across a few pictures showing a cone (called a "shape") hoisted, pointy end up,"to block" on a bridge signal halyard. It is a three dimensional device, not a flag. I understand there were other shapes used as well. The photos are B/W, so I do not know if different colored shapes were used. Can any SMML people advise the message code these various shapes transmitted? This may be a toughie, but I would like to know the code as of the WW1 era, although any period will be of interest. << These objects are generally called daymarks ot shapes and have special meetings for the Navigation Rules of the Road. I went to one of the USCG sites (DirAux West) and found a presentation of the NavRules http://www.dirauxannex.org/NavRulesppt_files/v3_document.htm In the presentation there are various shapes and lights. The shapes are generally black. The dayshapes take on the meanings of associated lights - which are not visible during the day. They are cone shaped, diamond shaped and ball shaped. The 1972 ColRegs identify the meanings of some of these shapes - and their uses in combination. I didn't find a meaning of a cone - point up. Those dayshapes presented are: Cone point-down: Sailing vessel under sail and power Ball: At anchor Diamond: Vessel under Tow > 200 meters tow length Ball over Diamond over Ball: Restricted ability to maneuver Ball over Diamond over Ball (center) with Ball over Ball and Diamond over Diamond (on sides): Restricted ability to maneuver - Ball side is obstructed; Diamond side is clear Ball over Ball over Ball: Aground < 50 meters Cone down over Cone up: Fishing Ball over Ball: Not under Comand Ball at masthead, Ball at each yardarm: Mine clearance operations I'm sure that Duane Fowler and some of the other Coasties will chime in with additional information. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: AandMBlevins@gateway.net Subject: Re: USN Signal Device Franklyn, I could not find these in any of my Bluejacket's Manuals but did find the following in the American Merchant Sailor's Manual and my impression is that they would mean the same on Navy ships: 1 Ball = Preparative, answering or stop 1 Trangle and 1 Ball = Aground, want immediate asistance 2 Triangles and 1 Ball = I am on fire 1 Triangle and 2 balls = Affirmative 1 Triangle, 1 Ball and 1 Triangle inverted = Negative 1 Ball and two triangles = Assistance is coming 2 Balls and 1 triangle = Want a pilot 2 Balls and 1 square = Show your Distinguishing Signal 1 Ball, 1 inverted triangle and 1 square = Repeat your signal 1 Ball, 1 square and 1 triangle = Cannot distinguish your flags, come nearer 1 Ball, 1 square and 1 inverted triangle = Hurricane or typhoon expected These signals were formed of wire with canvas covering and painted black. They were hung from the signal arm in the same manner as signal flags. The publication date of the Manual is 1938 and, I imagine, would cover WWI. Al Blevins -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Jeanne d'Arc >> Just picked up Heller's Jeanne D'Arc, anyone know of any good reviews? << Here's my own review of it. I haven't quite finished the model, but did enough to judge it. Jeanne d'Arc (French CVH) [1/400] {1034} (Mod) GOOD/EXCELLENT. The model is NOT the version shown on the box. The cover shows the modern Exocet-armed version, while the model is of the older, Masurca-armed version. The ship never actually carried Masurca. The details are good, though I would recommend brass railings and detail/replacement parts from the French company l'Arsenal, including the Exocet launchers you'll need to bring her up to date. This is on the Ship Model Review List, found at: http://www.quuxuum.org/rajens_list/shiprevs.html Joe Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Gato class reference >> I think about to build a model from a GATO-class submarine in scale 1/35. And therefore I would like to receive any information about plans, pictures, books, painting, modifikations, uniforms, daily life on those subs, etc... << For the ultimate reference, a 1 to 1 version in original fit, go see the USS Cod: http://www.usscod.org/ She is preserved in Cleveland, Ohio, in her WWII fit. If any of you saw "Silent Service" on the History Channel in the US, she was featured in the recreations. You can find her and other ship museums in my online Lists of Naval and Maritime Museums: http://www.bb62museum.org/usnavmus.html - USA http://www.bb62museum.org/wrldnmus.html - Worldwide, except USA Joe Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "JAmes McCormick" Subject: Re: Hunley Is it just me, or are there any others who feel the Hunley should have been left alone? I do agree the Hunley was a significant turning point is Naval combat, but after that, she became a grave. I don't feel there is just cause to open her up, I personally wish she (and her crew) would have been left in peace. How does everyone else feel? Maybe next somebody will see about raising the Arizona? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Rod Dauteuil Subject: Yorktown conversion Craig's post on the Yorktown conversion seemed right on the money. I've contemplated for some time combining a Tamiya Enterprise and Hornet to make a decent Yorktown. Each model sems to have it's own details that were similar to the Yorktown. Also, the new CW book will aid tremendously in the project. As far as aircraft, Fujimi makes (or made) an aircraft set which consisted of F4F Wildcats, F4F's with separate wings for folding, and SBD Dauntlesses. I bought my set a year or so ago for around $4.99. I believe you get 12 aircraft, 6 on each tree. Rod -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Gato >> I think about to build a model from a GATO-class submarine in scale 1/35. And therefore I would like to receive any information about plans, pictures, books, painting, modifications, uniforms, daily life on those subs, etc... << Not long ago, I reviewed (very favorably) Gato-class plans produced by Floating Drydock from official USN plans. Others commented at length about the exceptional quality of the Floating Drydock plans (in general) - the sub plans are exquisite - and run somewhere around $30 (a bargain for what you get). Check their website (http://www.floatingdrydock.com) Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Yorktown >> I'm thinking about building USS Yorktown using Tamiya's Enterprise kit. I know they are in the same class, but I wonder if any modifications should be made? Can anyone give me some clues. Thanks in advance. << Henry - I'd check out the new photo book out on the Yorktown class (you know who's) before doing anything. It has great photos and lots of close-up details. I'm not aware of any changes of significance between Yorktown and Enterprise (the Hornet was of the same class but a bit different), but the Big E survived the war (and hence got lots of AA and radar upgrades), and Yorktown was sunk before having the chance to do much upgrading. Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Vote for Ocean Liner Models Next Kit Subject Hi Folks, In cooperation with Tom Nicolai and Ray Vargas of Ocean Liner Models, I have set up a ballot form on my site, International Maritime Modeling, to help them determine what you the modeler would like to see as the subject of the next liner kit from OLM. The ballot has a list of possible subjects and a chance to write one in that isn't on the list. Ocean Liner Models has developed a 1/600 scale resin and photoetch brass kit of the Normandie, so they are looking towards what to do next. Voting is open until April 30, 2001. All ballots will be sent to me directly and I will tabulate them for Tom and Ray. The results will be posted in the May 2001 update of IMM. To access the ballot form, go to this URL: http://Febus65.tripod.com/vote.htm or you can find the info and a link towards the bottom of main International Maritime Modeling homepage. Thanks, Felix Bustelo International Maritime Modeling URL: http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Steamer & Sub >> I'm also looking for a good accurate WWll German sub in 1/350. Thanks again for the help. << There are resin kits of a Type VII, Type IX, and Type XXI (although you wouldn't want the last one for this diorama). Contact me offline if you would like details. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Scientists will excavate interior of Civil War sub http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/national/sub232.shtml -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Lump518176@aol.com Subject: Re: CL Phoenix camo...07Dec41 Phoenix was painted in MS-11 (or MS-21 possibly) on 07Dec1941. There is a photo of her steaming past a burning Battleship Row shortly after the attack was over that is published in numerous books. Her decks were painted 20-B in this scheme. Jerry Phillips -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Lump518176@aol.com Subject: Re: Yorktown 20 mm's This is concerning converting Tamiya Hornet to a Yorktown, 1942. Yorktown did have only a partial 20mm gun outfit. Her starboard flight deck galleries still had water cooled .50 cal MG's, having never been converted over to 20mm. These galleries also had no splinter shields, only railings with splinter mats tied on. Yorktown's AA fit was quite unique, with several differences from her sister carriers. At Midway, many additional .50 cal and even .30 cal MGs were set up. There is a complete discussion about her AA fit in the book, "That Gallant Ship" by Robert Cressman. Jerry Phillips -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Fiume Camouflage Pattern There is a camouflage pattern (both port and starboard) for the Fiume in the instructions for the Tauro 1/400 kit, but the problem is that no one seems to know if there is any photographic evidence to back up that pattern; furthermore, the one published photograph of the Fiume in a camouflage pattern is very unclear and is difficult to square with the pattern in the Tauro instructions. Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: 1/700 Yorktown Conversion I attempted this conversion once, and may someday try to finish it, but it is not easy to do. I have very little to add to what Craig Bennett has already said, but I would note that (1) the Yorktown had some .50 cal. machine guns in addition to a number of 20mm guns, which were arranged along the flight deck differently from both the Tamiya Enterprise and Hornet, (2) she had two Mk. 33 directors on the island instead of the rather poor Mk. 37 directors provided in the Tamiya Enterprise and Hornet kits, (3) the island of either Tamiya kit would have to be modified, especially with a rather prominent wind deflector on the very front of the island, and (4) neither Tamiya kit provides catapults on the flight deck forward. I imagine someone could add to this, but this is all I can remember right now. Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Navydaze in Feb Sea Classics issue First of all thank you Shane for putting me back on the list - ya know I thought there was something missing in my life everyday- I did not know about the "crash"! I hate to make this a little self promotion but if anyone is interested, they did a nice article about my art in the Feb. issue of "Sea Classics" magazine. In actuality I wrote this article for Navis on the web a long time ago - I guess Sea Classics sort of borrowed it. And I apologize in that I knew nothing about SMML or I would have mentioned it - but I was not give any advanced notice by Challenge Publications that they were going to do it. But the article does tell it like it is as to how I feel about ships and I am sure that there are many of you that feels exactly the same way when it comes to your models - which in many ways I feels is a higher art than mine because it is 3 dimentional where mine is two - (we try for the 3 but dont always do it right.) Michael Donegan NAVYDAZE - Naval & Aviatin Artist -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Doug Wilde" Subject: New Revell S-Boat Mike better not be teasing us 72nd folks regarding a new S-Boat model from Revell. Just about anything in that scale would be welcomed. We'd also very much enjoy a Russian armoured motor boat (Type 1124 or 1125) with T-34 tank turrets...or Italian MAS, with twin-stepped hulls! In a related vein, those that play around in 1:1 scale boats might look at the most recent issue of Classic Boat (out of the UK). Page 9 of the February 2001 issue features a wonderful modern version by MAS Yachts of a WWI (?) fast patrol boat. Costs about as much as a Riva. Definitely not the typical metal-flake bass boat one finds here in Arkansas. Doug Wilde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Chant, Peter" Subject: Re: HMAS Vampire >> I concur on the plus points, the instructions, PE & decals are very nice. On the forecastle being too short - did you place the bridge part right up against the funnel?? I found that it needs to go virtually slap bang up to the funnel (based on walking over the "Bat") which would take care of that 3mm differential to B turret. Or is it based on actual measurements of the entire hull? << Yes the bridge has to be right against the funnel. I based my figures on the published o/a length and some (very) old 1/600 plans of the RN Daring's. Rounded to 3mm as that was the card I had! I forgot to say I followed Shane's advice and finished the hull in Humbrol 31, with a little white for scale effect. However it still looks darker than my photos, still it was v. sunny in Sydney compared with indoors in UK! I will try and do some pictures next week or so. Peter Chant Plymouth UK Hi Peter, We look forward to seeing the pictures soon. Thanks for the extra info as well ;-). Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: YORKTOWN >> but to get Devastators you can try Pit-road/Skywave for a set of 5 for $13.00 and I think that White Ensign may make them as well. << Yes we do, in our Airstrike series: AS7031, Douglas Devastator(bag of 3), 2.95 GBP (about $4.50 at the current exchange rate). How many would you all like? ;^) John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: International Maritime Modeling January 2001 Update I am please to announce the January 2001 update to International Maritime Modeling. http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm The update to the site includes: Photos of Peter Hall's 1/600 scale HMS Prince of Wales, Charlie Jones & Stan Pienkowski's 1/32 scale PT 191, and Bob Santos' 1/32 scale CSS Hunley and 1/96 scale USS Winslow in the Gallery. Review of the Heller 1/400 scale kit of the Commandant Riviere in Quick Kit Reviews. Reviews of the White Ensign Models 1/600 scale German Kriegsmarine Anti-Aircraft Set and L'Arsenal's 1/400 scale 100mm Turrets, Exocet Missiles, French Naval Radar and Rafale Marine sets in Photoetch Reviews. Review of Yorktown Class Carriers (Warship Pictorial #9) in Book Reviews. Updated the Heller, Revell and Dolphin Models pages in the Kit List Page. Added a Voting Ballot Page to determine Ocean Liner Models next 1/600 scale liner kit subject. Updated the WR Press Page to include the cover of the upcoming Royal Navy Camouflage Volume Two - 1942 title. Updated the Snyder & Short Enterprises page with scans of the Kreigsmarine (German Navy) Set 1 under the Paints List. Updates to the latest arrivals at Warship Books. Related updates to the Links page. Please stop by for a look. Remember I am always looking for contributions, be it photos, reviews or build articles. Regards, Felix Bustelo International Maritime Modeling URL: http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume