Subject: SMML VOL 1137 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:07:45 -0800 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Sea RAM-system 2: More on CIWS, and on the RN Sea RAM trials 3: Re: ASR 102 4: Re: Fletcher Facts (more) 5: USS Sea Tiger--Pink Submarine 6: Home Depot parts yard / finials, etc 7: Re: Blast bags 8: Re: Fletcher details 9: Cruiser with most action 10: Re: Rescaling photo etch 11: Re: WWII Color Trivia 12: High Seas Fleet vs Grand Fleet incl. American squadron 13: Scalecraft Models 14: Re: More warship trivia 15: Re: RAF ASR Boat ASR102 16: Red Sub 17: USS Gyatt, a Gearing class DD 18: Re: Sea Ram 19: SEA RAM 20: Re: the screw threads and Mike Settle 21: Re: New Revell Kit USS SKIPJACK 22: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman 23: All Hands - January 2001 - Navy Medals/Ribbons 24: RAM and AEGIS/SPY-1 25: Photo Etch and the Trouble with Macs 26: Re: New Revell Kit USS SKIPJACK 27: Re: Too much information about screws 28: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman 29: Re: Revell Skipjack et al 30: go to the source 31: Warships Supplement article 32: Re: 1/4"-28nf screws; was Lamp Finials 33: 1/4-28 screws -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Sub Book -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bergschöld Pelle Subject: Re: Sea RAM-system I spot some confusion about the Sea RAM Close-In-Weapon-System. This weapon system is a mating between the existing Phalanx Block 2 CIWS and the RAM-system. I quote: "Leveraged technology from Phalanx CIWS and RAM integrates elements of each system into the self-contained SEA RAM system. An 11-missile round RAM launcher assembly loaded with RAM Block 1 guided missiles replaces Phalanx's 20 mm gun. SEA RAM inherits RAM's accuracy, extended range, and high maneuverability, combined with the Phalanx Block 1B's high resolution target detection search-and-track sensor systems and reliable quick-response capability." The reason for installing the Phalanx block 2 is probably that the need is urgent. Anyone, also a poorly trained terrorist can obtain and use a system like the Hellfire missile without any problems, and the Block 1 just doesn't cope. Still the Sea RAM isn't developed enough to deploy, so as an intermediate measure, the Block 2 is used. Now, the US main contractor of the Sea RAM (which is a joint US-German project) is Raytheon, and I'm happy to be able to supply a link to their Sea Ram homepage. http://www.raytheon.com/es/esproducts/dsssram/dsssram.htm All the best. Pelle SWE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Bergschöld Pelle Subject: More on CIWS, and on the RN Sea RAM trials This I found on the INternet. What a source it is! It describes the differences and philosophies around the RAM and the gun-based CIWS-systems in quite a good way. Now, imagine the tracking and the compactness of the Phalanx and combine with the RAM missile system, and you have the Sea RAM. Recently there was a discussion about CIWS in the sci.military.naval newsgroup. I'm now trying to give you a short summary. Hope you enjoy it. There are two totally different systems: the gatling gun systems (Goalkeeper, Phalanx) and the missile system (RAM). A problem of the gun systems is the kinetic energy. A 1000lb missile moving at 300-350m/s isn't going to be significantly affected by a half-pound projectile moving at 1000-1500m/s in the opposite direction. The problem is that, with Phalanx tyimagesally scoring its kills by warhead detonation at 500-800 metres, if the warhead survives there's a good chance that the missile - even with its seeker shredded by 20mm APDS - is on a ballistic trajectory intersecting the ship. (One reason for the replacement of 20mm AAA with 40mm and 3" guns in the Pacific late in WW2 - by the time 20mm was in range, a kamikaze was likely to hit the ship anyway). RAM is doing much better. It can blow the rest of the inbound missile out of the flight profile. Also evasive manouevres greatly complicate defensive fire, especially using guns. Goalkeeper - Gatling gun - used eg in the British Navy and in the Netherlands - slightly further than Phalanx - 30 mm rounds - can track other targets while it engages one - dual frequeny tracking radar (I and Ka Band) - optional IRST for EMCON ops - can fire explosive rounds and armor-piercing discarding sabot (APDS) (primary) Phalanx - Gatling gun - used eg in the US Navy - max range 5.8 nm - 20 mm rounds - versions Block-I (old) and Block-II - differences: Block-II does have a better track/search radar and a higher elevation - rounds capacity 1500 (Block-II) 998 (Block-I) - cheaper than Goalkeeper and easier to install - can only track the target it engages RAM - shortcut for Rolling Airframe Missile - have it's seeker head point off at an angle and rotate; rolling the entire missile allows the seeker to be rigidly mounted - to the airframe - used eg in the German Navy and in Denmark - seeker: anti radiation (ARH) (infra red (IR) still in development) - fire-and-forget missile - 21 x launcher (German frigates have got two launchers) - standart salvo is two missiles - can fire to ESM emission and/or radar contact (ESM much more important) - very high hit probability This caption below is taken from a Raytheon press release: Raytheon/RAMSYS SEA RAM System to be Tested on Royal Navy Destroyer LONDON, (5th September, 2000) - - - Raytheon Systems Limited announced today that the U.K's Royal Navy has given approval for a trial fit of the SEA RAM Inner-Layer Defence System (ILDS) on board a Type 42 Destroyer. SEA RAM is the low cost evolution of the Phalanx Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) into an autonomous Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) Inner Layer Defence System. This first-ever SEA RAM trial will be undertaken in 2001 on HMS YORK. Six companies from Europe and the United States, including Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTNA; RTNB), RAM-System GmbH (RAMSYS), Devonport Royal Dockyard Ltd., Hunting Engineering Ltd., and Pilkington Optronics have formed a transatlantic consortium to pursue the next step in the evolution of ship defence for the Royal Navy. Raytheon Systems Limited (RSL) will serve as the prime contractor. The consortium will draw upon the various strengths of the member companies to establish a strong industrial base in Europe for the SEA RAM programme. SEA RAM is a low-risk evolution of Phalanx from close-in to inner-layer defence. It capitalises on existing hardware and ship installations and retains the autonomous nature of Phalanx whilst combining these features with proven RAM missiles to engage multiple targets at greater ranges. In essence, the Phalanx gun is replaced by a RAM launching guide (container), holding up to 11 missiles, which can then either be fired singly or salvo-sequenced in any operationally suited number.. The aim of the trial would be to demonstrate: Compatibility of the system and that it is supportable and safe when used in all RN activities and environments. Operationally that it meets the perceived need and that the SEA RAM system will provide the extended protection range for RN ships against various forms of attack. Cost effectiveness and affordability; a system that could be acquired, installed and supported at an affordable cost and low risk via use of existing assets, infrastructure, training and logistics. Live firing trials will not be carried out, as sufficient missile performance data is already available from the records of more than 150 RAM firings, resulting in greater than 95 percent success. Raytheon Company is the prime contractor for the Phalanx CIWS and continues to serve as the Phalanx design authority for the U.S. Department of Defense and 20 international navies including the Royal Navy. Raytheon's Missile Systems business unit in Tucson, Arizona, has an equal partnership with RAM-System GmbH (RAMSYS) in Germany to design, develop and produce the RAM (Rolling Airframe Missile) Weapon System and are now jointly developing the SEA RAM system. RSL and the SEA RAM UK Consortium will be responsible for the UK demonstration and potential introduction into UK service. The RN is apparently more up-front than the yanks..? ;-) Cheers Pelle SWE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "megden" Subject: Re: ASR 102 John Pritchard wrote an excellent series of articles on all RAF High Speed Launches for Model Boats. Part 5, published in the Oct. 1975 edition, illustrates the BPBCo 64ft HSL which I believe includes ASL 102. The drawings are very good. I only have a Xerox copy of the incomplete article but it does mention that HSL 107 operated out of Malta under Flt. Lt. Price If you have have a problem getting a copy, contact me off list and I will happily mail one to you. In the meantime I will try to get a complete copy of the article. Denis W Keegan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Re: Fletcher Facts (more) Keith wrote asking for some information on Fletcher crews at battle stations. Ned (in 1137) wrote back with some information. Let me chime in here with some additional thoughts Uniforms -- if you're intent on showing your Fletcher at battle stations -- the crew is all going to be in life vests and steel pots. Color will be dark gray over the under-uniform of khaki & blues. Build up your flat-etched crewmen with some coats of white glue then paint. Artist's acrylic paints in a tube may help build some bulk. Crews manning guns -- IIRC it was posted that there were something like 7 men physically on a quad 40mm mount (pointer, trainer, gun captain/talker, and 4 loaders). There are also ammo passers around the mount. There were something on the order of 3 or 4 men per 20mm single mount (gunner, asst. gunner/pointer, loaders). To get the straight skinny on the numbers and assignments of personnel at battlestations, you might drop a line to the Tin Can Sailors and ask the veterans directly. By all means - get the Duane Fowler (Dunagain Decals) deckwalk decals. They help add some color differences to the overall blue decks. I don't think you can miss with either the Flagship etched set - or the Gold Medal Models etched set Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: TechnoInfidel@webtv.net (John Collins) Subject: USS Sea Tiger--Pink Submarine Greetings: Chuck Duggie, I believe, asked about entering a pink submarine in a contest. I did, in fact, build a old Skywave Gato class sub in such a scheme as the USS Sea Tiger from the movie "Operation Petticoat." I entered it in several contests. It always attracted attention, got some laughs, and earned a few trophies. In most model contests, one is judged by how well one builds rather than what one builds. So, yes, you can get away with it. I think the idea of a USS Duke of New York might make for an intiguing model. John Collins Atlanta, GA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Home Depot parts yard / finials, etc Mike Settle wrote about drilling through the lamp finial and then drilling into the ship's keel to accept a nut and bolt. I've done that too. I've also threaded the hole in th resin to receive the bolt with a machinists tap set. The trouble is if you torque the bolt just a bit too much you'll strip the threads in an instant. What I've done is to install a brass threaded insert. These are also available in the Home Depot Nut & Bolt department. They are designed to provide a means of inserting a machine screw into a piece of wood. They have a coarse external thread for holding in the wood and a finer machine bolt interior thread. Instead of drilling a 1/8 hole to receive the bolt, I'll drill a 3/8 hole to receive the insert. (Be sure not to drill too deep. The folks at ISW have had to replace one of my drilling errors when I misjudged the drill depth.) I then epoxy the insert into the hole, being sure to square the insert fore/aft and side-to-side. Once the epoxy hardens I can mount the ship on a work stand, or the bolts make good handles. I do all this before I paint to begin to apply details. The soft brass of the insert is fileable to make sure that the hull profile is correct. The bolts are removable when I want to change bases or stands. Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Blast bags >> What will work well for the boot around the gun barrell where it enters the turret? << This known as a blast bag. I have used Elmer's white glue applied heavily with a brush. When the glue shrinks, it gets realistic wrinkles and looks pretty good. You may have to apply several coats to get the desired effect though. I've also tried using Squadron green putty applied with a toothpick. When it shrinks (during the drying process) it gives you the same look. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. You can now pay using your Visa / MasterCard Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Fletcher details >> Duane Fowler has a decal sheet of the no-skid tread areas that I got from him in October - it's impressive as all get-out (he also has it in 1/700); Rusty White has PE brass for Fletcher (see the FineScale Modeling 2001 for a photo, and the upcoming April 2001 issue for a how-to). << Look closely at the photo in the 2001 modeling book and you will see Duane Fowler's anti-skid walkways as well. They really do look cool on the model. Highly recommended! Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. You can now pay using your Visa / MasterCard Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Cruiser with most action I was interested to read about the US cruiser that had the most battle honours in World War Two. With respect, it is my belief that the cruiser that saw the most combat, the greatest contact with the enemy has to be the Dido. Battle stars or battle honours are very misleading in respect of amount of action. I believe that the Dido has about ten honours for the war, but this does not begin to tell the number ot times she saw combat. If this ship has any competition then this must be the cruiser Sheffield. And what about the Perth? If any cruiser had more action in the twelve months that she was in the Mediterranean then I would like to hear about it. I would be interested in hearing from others on this subject. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Rescaling photo etch >> I've seen the pictures of the WEM Moskva photoetch and it seems to be great. Question is how easy is it for a manufacturer to rescale photoetch? I've got the Kombrig Moskva and Leningrad and they are screaming out for this set in 1/700. But I do not know the difficulty/demand for the rescale however I think most people with these kombrig kits would be interested. << I get this question a lot. Since most photo etch is now designed on computer (all of my sets are), it's very simple to rescale the drawings. However, it's not that simple. Once the drawings are rescaled, you have to adjust the line widths on every single line of the drawing to etch with the proper width depending on the thickness of metal sheet for the set. This is done using some simple math. In other words WEM could scale down the set, but it take some 4 to 8 hours of computer time to adjust all the line widths. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. You can now pay using your Visa / MasterCard Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: WWII Color Trivia I happen to be reading King's biography right now. I knew about the gray (vs. grey) uniforms, but found that King also introduced another uniform variation when he was Commander in Chief, Atlantic Fleet. This uniform--for officers--consisted of the trousers from the blue dress uniform, and jacket from the white dress uniform, with black shoes (his theory was that the white trousers and white shoes from the white uniform would get too dirty on ships' ladders). This uniform variation was no more popular than the gray one. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: High Seas Fleet vs Grand Fleet incl. American squadron Hi You guys who named the surrender of the High Seas Fleet as that meeting with the Grand Fleet including an American squadron! I have to protest earnestly and very emphatic. The High Seas Fleet did never surrender. It was formally interned at Scapa Flow (not surrendered) during the phase of armistice. Then, when rumors spread that surrender was to follow this armistice, the High Seas Fleet was sank by its own crews at Scapa. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Matthew Prager" Subject: Scalecraft Models Hello, Can anyone on the list provide info on a company called Scalecraft Models? I'm particularly interested in thier kit #S530 which is a minesweeper. Is there a distributor in the US? Matt Prager -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: More warship trivia Nobody (so far) answered both questions correctly, but list as a whole come up a treat!! Nat, Pieter and Pavel & Jana all get 5 points (out of 10) for getting first guestion right. Alan Bickerton also gets 5 points for correct answer to the second question. Regards D.P. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: geoff-smith Subject: Re: RAF ASR Boat ASR102 Edward, Plans for this class of boat are available from Nexus in the UK. Covers 102 and the other boats of the class, which were slightly different and armament changes. Worth getting at about £12.50. Plan # MM1379 Go to: http://www.modelboats.co.uk/ Regards, Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Red Sub John Snyder wrote: >> Actually, the "pink" sub had some historical basis. The IJN kept reporting a "red" sub operating against them, which turned out to be true. The paintwork on one of the boats (sorry, don't remember which one at the moment) was so bad that she was mostly showing red-lead for at least one war patrol. << Ned Replies: That was the SEADRAGON - here's how it came to pass. When the Japanese Naval Air Force first struck Cavite on December 10 (local) SEALION and SEADRAGON (in port for repairs and overhaul) were wedged against Machina Warf by the BITTERN, a minesweeper. Two bombs struck SEALION - one on the aft end of the fairwater, killing sub-sailor Ensign Samuel H. Hunter on SEADRAGON (the first sub-sailor to die in combat) and one smashing the main ballast tank, inflicting the wound that was ultimately fatal to SEALION (she was scuttled when Manila was evacuated) and killing four more sub sailors. The bomb-blast inferno scorched the SEADRAGON's paint, and the raw steel hull soon rusted to a fairly vibrant bright red - the Japanese noted this, Tokyo Rose reported this and had Nimitz and Co. wondering what the hell she was smoking (until SEADRAGON returned to port). Source - T.Roscoe, Pig Boats Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Fredrycca Cerussi-Muntz" Subject: USS Gyatt, a Gearing class DD I want to make a 1/700 model of the USS Gyatt as a bithday present to a friend of mine who served on this ship late 50's earl 60's after she was extensively converted. I will use Sky Wave's kit as the starting point. I understand that Gyatt's weaponry after conversion consisted of the original #1 and #2 twin 5"turrets foreward, but that the #3 and 4 turrets where removed and replaced by a twin Terrier missile launcher and missile house. The 40 mm guns were replaced by 3" guns, while the quintuple torpedo launchers were also removed. It was said that one (or two?) hedgehog launcher was placed in front of the bridge and also 2 acoustic torpedo catapults midships PS and SB( 4 in total) were installed. Now, I am not an expert on US destroyers and lack the information to make the 3" guns and the acoustic torpedo catapults. Also I am not sure were to place them. I do have 2 pictures of Gyatt which will enable me to make the Terrier launcher, but no details can be seen of the other armament and their location. Can anyone help me with sketches/ photo's?? Jan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: Re: Sea Ram >> It seems strange to replace a recently upgraded system so early in its operational life. However, there have been complaints about the CIWS's reliability due to it's complexity. The RAM it would seem, would be much simpler to operate and maintain. << Rusty, The issue with CWIS is not obselence but rather the Sea Ram can destroy the target farther from the ship, preventing shrapnel damage to a modern ship's delicate and exposed exterior systems. As for maintainability, you have the right idea that fewer moving parts means fewer headaches. While I do not know, I suspect the electronics (and software?) for the Sea Ram are even more sophisticated than ciws. We all know what gremlins can lurk in the world of new Hi Tech weapons systems. Time will tell. John Frohock USNSM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: sanders_talmadge_fc1 Subject: SEA RAM Dear SMMLies There seems to be a little confusion as to what sea ram is. Ram (Rolling Airframe Missile) is a separate entity from CIWS. It is used to supplement existing CIWS capable ships giving them an increased range for defeating ASM's. Ram uses an air search radar input from the ship. CIWS on the other hand, Has it's own search and track radar and operates independent from other ships systems (stand alone) but may accept inputs (target designations) from SPY radar. SEA RAM is a combination of the two, CIWS based, it has its own radar, with the increased range of the RAM missile. The infrared camera on the side of the Radome is found only on the Block 1B CIWS and has not been implemented in the fleet (there are some ships with it on a test basis) Since CIWS is radar guided and can only "see" fast/airborne/ movers, someone decided we needed defense against terrorists on sea do's (jet ski's) helicopters, kamikaze Cessna's, etc. So they made it possible to have a human interface (a-la camera) so the operator can aim at a target and open up with a burst of about 150 rounds (one and one half second burst). The sea ram is using this camera for targeting slow moving aircraft. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: GKingzett@aol.com Subject: Re: the screw threads and Mike Settle We're getting screwed up here. The discussion of NF vs NC threads by Mark Doremus is accurate. 1/4" pipe is actually .540" in diameter. Pipe thread is tapered, called NPT in the US, unless it is straight in which case it is called NPS. 1/4" size is 18 threads per inch. In the UK they use British threads which are another system. I'm kidding here a little, but the best advice is still to go to the oldest hardware store you know of, and find the oldest clerk you can find, with the parts in hand, and ask him or her how to screw them together. Look for a hardware store where they will sell you one screw, not those damned plastic bags of just exactly the wrong number of prepackaged items. The old fashioned store wants to help you solve your problem, so you will come back; the big chain wants to move merchandise. By the way, a couple of hours in a hardware store on a rainy day is a great education. Gary -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: drwells@hogpb.mt.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: New Revell Kit USS SKIPJACK "michael thrupp" wrote" >> WRT New Revell kit of USS Skipjack, I'm (almost) certain this is the old Aurora kit - I got my built model down from the loft and it works out at the ever-popular 1:233 scale (cf 1:230 scale as per catalog) - also remember that it had relatively few parts, including viewable nuclear reactor. << I agree, it is almost certainly the old Aurora kit. I'm strongly tempted to go out and buy a bunch of them. BTW: the reactor is in the wrong place. It might be wisest just to leave it out and glue the cover down. >> It compares well with the side view drawing of USS Skipjack on Page 132 of Friedmans' 'U.S. Submarines since 1945'. << Yes, but not perfectly. IIRC, you should move the sail about 1/4 inch further forward. That also means that you have to carve the hull a little bit, and fill a little bit. Also, the bow isn't quite pointy enough, but some sanding can take care of that. >> I wish that the old Aurora fit of the Russian G-class submarine could be re-issued - << I wish they'd re-issue that one too, but I agree it's unlikely. >> the sail/ conning tower bore more than a passing resemblance to the real thing. << One of my ongoing projects is to "accurize" the one I've got. The sail/conning tower isn't quite long enough (front to back) Stretching it has proven to be quite a challenge. Also, the stern needs considerable work, though I've had more success with that. The real problem from my perspective is the rumored bulge in the keel under the sail/conning tower. Some sources say it was there, other's say it wasn't. From a modeling perspective, it's far easier to leave it off. And then, what colors to paint it? David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: drwells@hogpb.mt.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman Allan Plumb wrote: >> I appreciate the story and all the opinions therewith, but I point this out as an example of the problems with eyewitness accounts. Richelieu wasn't at Toulon, and certainly wasn't sunk there. She went to Dakar after Mers-el-Kebir, after she went over to the Free French was refitted in New York until 8/43, and in June/July 1944 was near the Andaman Islands and Sabang with the British Eastern Fleet. (All per Breyer.) Now, with which ship did Nevada have its discussions? AFAIK, all French capital ships at Toulon were scuttled in 11/42. That would be Provence, Ocean, Dunkerque, and Strasbourg. Breyer says the pre-dreadnought Condorcet was damaged but not sunk in 11/42, was used by the Germans as a barracks ship, and was sunk by an Allied air raid. Which of these might have provided coast guns, or were they pre-existing? << My suspicion is that the guns were from the Provence, not the Richelieu. Here's why: DANFS says in its entry for the Nevada: >> Between 15 August and 25 September, Nevada fired in the invasion of Southern France, dueling at Toulon with shore batteries of 13.4-inch guns taken from French battleships scuttled early in the war. << http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/battlesh/bb36.htm 13.4 inch guns suggests a Provence class BB. At that time, (August 1944) Lorraine was alive and well. Bretagne was sunk at Mers el Khebir, and it seems unlikely that the Germans would have shipped the turrets all the way from Oran to Toloun. That leave the Provence herself, which was scuttled at Toloun in November of '42. Seems like a natural to me. The veteran who was quoted at the beginning of the thread probably had no way of knowing what ship the guns came from. No discredit to the man.... David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: All Hands - January 2001 - Navy Medals/Ribbons http://www.mediacen.navy.mil/pubs/allhands/jan01/ribbons.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: JOHN A BURCH Subject: RAM and AEGIS/SPY-1 I thought I’d offer some comments on recent posts to the List about RAM and AEGIS/SPY-1. I’m retired now after 30 years working in Naval Combat Systems. Rusty White remarked in SMML 1137: >> This is a guess, but I'll bet the operational RAM uses the Oldendorf's Spy 1 phased array radar for targeting. Eliminating the need for the radar dome and associated radar on the mount itself << OLDENDORF is a SPRUANCE class DD and hence doesn’t carry the AEGIS system or the SPY-1 radar. The SPRUANCE class is unique among current USN surface combatant classes in not having an area AAW capability. The SPRUANCE class was designed for ASW and Surface Warfare missions rather than AAW. I don’t know if the RAM is intended to supplant the NATO Sea Sparrow or if it is adding another layer to the AAW Self Defense capability of the class. The systems used for AAW Self Defense in the SPRUANCE class are the NATO Sea Sparrow, the CIWS (two mounts), the SLQ-32 OUTBOARD jammer and the Chaff launchers. As the USN favors the use of multiple, redundant AAW Self Defense systems and deliberately decouples such systems from the Area AAW systems (e.g., AEGIS) it is not surprising that all the ship classes with AAW Area Defense missions (AEGIS CGs and DDGs and FFGs) embark all these same systems, except NATO Sea Sparrow. CIWS and RAM are also featured in Amphibious and support ships because they are either autonomous (e.g., CIWS) or don’t make big demands for integration of sensor data (i.e., no need for a Combat Direction System with AAW capability). I suspect the Royal Navy is looking at adding RAM to the Duke class in order to provide redundancy to the Sea Wolf System, which is a fairly short range AAW system, and because it has minimal impact on the Combat Direction System (I think the RN term is “Action Information System”). RAM (Rolling Airframe Missile) is a “fire and forget” point defense system that homes on either the Infra-Red signature of the incoming missile or the electronic emissions of that missile’s homing radar. The decision to launch a RAM from a SPRUANCE could be based on detection of an incoming missile (“VAMPIRE”) by any number of systems including the Air Search radar (SPS-40 except HAYLER which mounts SPS-49), Surface Search radar (SPS-55), MK 23 TAS (Target Acquisition System), SLQ-32 ESM Set or even from a topside lookout. The only critical data needed is the relative bearing of the VAMPIRE to own ship. Once that is known, the RAM can be fired back down the line of bearing. The RAM missile uses a Sidewinder proximity fuze to detonate its Sidewinder warhead. I suspect there is either doctrine or a software routine that would cause the RAM system to continue firing missiles until stopped by a “Break Engage” or “Cease Fire” order. CIWS, for example, continues to fire at a target until the target is destroyed (when CIWS shows no radar return) or runs out of ammunition, or gets a “Break Engage” or “Cease Fire” order. Devin J. Poore remarked about RAM in SMML 1135: >> I don't remember what it uses for a RADAR system, though; I do know they were toying with using the AEGIS system on those sort of ships as guidance, but AEGIS is less than impressive on low and close in targets. << The SPY-1 radar is tied to the AEGIS Combat System and certainly could be used to cue the RAM, as could several other systems as discussed above. Low and close targets tend to be difficult for most fire control radars (it is called the “low-E” problem) because the target return radar signal and the sea return radar signals are almost indistinguishable. The problem is usually handled by special coding in the radar pulse and by post processing the return signal. However the USN has an institutional bias against tying any AAW Self Defense system to the Area AAW system. If the Area AAW system failed to stop the VAMPIRE, why would you want to compromise the ability of an autonomous Self Defense system by coupling it to the Area AAW system which failed to stop the missile in the first place? CIWS has a mode for operating where it is directed by the ship’s Combat Direction System but it was only implemented in AEGIS Cruisers, and is certainly not the preferred mode of operation even in those ships. Cheers, John Burch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Subject: Photo Etch and the Trouble with Macs Hi Dave and Don, First thing is about the photo etch for the Moskva and any other Russian built warships that there are kits for. I initially set out to produce the Moskva set as a continuation of the WEM range of PE for the 1/600 and 1/570 scale kits that are on the market by manufacturers such as Airfix and Revell. My own interest in the Russian warships had led me to draw up images for numerous radar and mast arrays, but in 1/350 scale. To re scale something like this over a large differential of scale, reducing something by half, usually leads to a complete re draw of the item in question. This is because all my images have been drawn on, wait for it, an Apple Mac computer, Ho Ho Ho, and have been since the beginning of 97. No trouble at all :-) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The lines are all drawn to the finest thickness that is workable by the etchers and by the modeller who has to assemble these things at the end of it all. If I were to do a straight reduction of the Moskva set most of the lines would disappear in the etching process, so I would have to thicken them all first. The other consideration is that different manufacturers make their parts different shapes and the scaling can vary also. So if, for example, I scaled down the hangar doors from the Moskva 1/600 set, to 1/700 they still may not fit the Kombrig kit as the openings may be different. Then I would have to reshape the items in question. I am currently looking at the possibility of a set of Russian Radar and other details in 1/700 scale, but will have to put it to Caroline as to whether or not the demand is great enough. OK then, who wants a set of Russian details in...................scale?????? Now about the problems, with my Mac. The main problem I had was identifying where the fault was. I just took a while because I'm a silly old git and this is new fangled technology:^)) I mean really, if I am to do fine photo etch work then I need to have the finest equipment to do it. AND its American too.:-) !!! Hope this has helped, now I will don the tin hat and hope that nobody chucks Windows 98 at me. Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrggh... All the best Peter Hall WEM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Craig R Bennett Subject: Re: New Revell Kit USS SKIPJACK Hi Guys I think Mike Thrup is right about the Skipjack kit. I recall reading Aurora sold a number of molds to Monogram in the mid 1970's. BTW I got my squadron monthly update and in the books listed is US HEAVY CRUISERS IN ACTION -Part 1 by Squadron no.14 for warships. Any one seen this book yet? Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Too much information about screws >> dropped on some packaging. The fine screw has some strength and torque advantages because there is slightly more material in it. Coarse screws are a bit cheaper to make since there are fewer threads in a given length. Whether a thread is fine or coarse is also a function of the pitch diameter, so for #10 screws (pitch diameter .1875 or .1900) 24 threads per inch (tpi) is considered coarse and 32 tpi is considered fine. << Isn't the use of fine threads somewhat more problematical with either brittle or soft materials due to the decreased thread depth?? i.e. don't they tend to strip out easier in these materials?? Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman >> I don'n know with which ship Nevada have this discussion, but I may have some other answers. After the scuttling of most of the French fleet in november 1942 the Italians started demolishing the battleships (while refloating some other ships). The 13'' guns form both Dunkerque and Strasbourg were taken from the ships and may have ended up in the Toulon fortifications, but other ex-ships guns were already there as some of the guns originally intended for the pre-WW1 Normandie (Bearn) class dreadnoughts were part of the Toulon fortifications. These guns had been destroyed by their crews in november 1942 and had been replaced by the Germans by guns taken from the sunken old battleship Provence. This may have been the battery the Nevada sailor talked about as it looked like a two barrel version of Richelieu's turrets. << Likely so. A fellow SMMLie pointed this out in email. I checked Breyer only for the ships scuttled at Toulon, if I had read a bit more I would have seen that 2-34cm guns from Provence were used as a coastal battery near Toulon. (And I'm aware of some of the errors in Breyer, too...) About Strasbourg's guns: I have a book "World War II Warships" by Hugh and David Lyon (not very good, but one of my earlier acquisitions) which has a picture of Strasbourg (sic?) with a US soldier on the forecastle. "A" turrets guns have been sawn off, "B" guns are still there. No coastal batteries here. OTOH, I'm not sure it's really Strasbourg: Strasbourg had a double bridge superstructure and the picture appears to be a single. Maybe Dunkerque, which was so. The B turret gun damage would be consistent with the bomb damage mentioned in Duilin and Garzke. (I like Strasbourg - I have Heller's kit. Built, even. Someday I'll build my Jean Bart, Richeliu's sister. Or maybe I'll make an attempt at her never-built near-sister Gascogne.) None of this detracts from the original story, nor from my good opinion of the storyteller. Just a cautionary tale to point out that just being there doesn't mean you're omniscient. "Tigers", indeed, as pointed out earlier. Allan Plumb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Revell Skipjack et al >> WRT New Revell kit of USS Skipjack, I'm (almost) certain this is the old Aurora kit - I got my built model down from the loft and it works out at the ever-popular 1:233 scale (cf 1:230 scale as per catalog) - also remember that it had relatively few parts, including viewable nuclear reactor. It compares well with the side view drawing of USS Skipjack on Page 132 of Friedmans' 'U.S. Submarines since 1945'. << Actually, it's not all that close. There are details of the sail structure that Ken Hart wrote an article a few years back about correcting that involved major plastic surgery. Also, the three bladed propeller provided with the kit is all wrong; original speed prop had 5, the silenced propeller (after the "blade rate" problem was discovered) had 7. The BWN resin kit of Skipjack is much better, and can be found (if one looks hard) in the low $30 range. >> I wish that the old Aurora fit of the Russian G-class submarine could be re-issued - the sail/ conning tower bore more than a passing resemblance to the real thing. << The rest of the hull was not much more than passing. The stern is way, way off. Pitroad's Combat Subs has a real nice Russian Golf II in resin that matches the detailed drawings I have of a Golf II pretty closely. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: Drees Joe Subject: go to the source Many questions about modern USN ships can be answered by contacting the ship itself. Most if not all ships have web pages and as the navy is very image concious they will bend over backwards to help you. All commands have a public affairs officer (PAO) who can help you. Directing questions to the command master chief will also help. Many ships have e-mail even at sea. Sailors LOVE to get mail while at sea. Joe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: Clifford Franklin Subject: Warships Supplement article I am trying to track down an article entitled "Rocket propelled AA weapons used by the Royal Navy during the Second World War," published in "Warships Supplement" of the World Ship Society, volume 102 in 1990. Does anyone have a copy of this article or magazine that they could scan or photocopy for me. Many thanks Cliff Franklin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: 1/4"-28nf screws; was Lamp Finials For the record (and for those others on the list headed in that direction) neither Home Depot nor Lowes carry 1/4"-28 machine screws. They only carry the 1/4"-20 types. Will try Payless Cashways and/or Ace on Saturday. Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: "wblad" Subject: 1/4-28 screws This may be a little late, but... the Modellers Boatyard sells brass pedestals for ship models. They have slotted styles to receive an external keel or pin styles if you want to drill a hole in the model's bottom. Both styles are available in a variety of sizes. They cost between $1.49 to $2.99 per pair. Their web address is: www.modellersboatyard.com. They have a link to the Steel Navy website. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Ned Barnett" Subject: Sub Book Once again, I've bought without looking - I now have two new copies of "Submarines of World War II" - a nice trade paperback with coverage of each type used by all parties during the Big One. Cost me $24 at Amazon - first $18 can have it (postage included). Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume