Subject: SMML VOL 1139 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:50:37 -0800 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Coast Guard Cutter Bear 2: Desk colour of USS Alabama (BB-60) today 3: Book - "British Warships of the Second World War" by John Roberts 4: Re: Another Sea RAM question 5: MAC Attack And A Parry 6: Arizona Brass? 7: Mystery Cruiser 8: US Naval information sites 9: Re: Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) 10: Peter Hall's Mac and PE 11: Re: Officer and Gentleman 12: Re: the screw threads and Mike Settle 13: Re: 1/4" - 28 screws 14: FRAM resource book 15: French guns 16: Re: 1/4"-28nf screws; was Lamp Finials 17: Re: USS Gyatt, a Gearing class DD 18: Re: Skipjack and G-class submarines 19: Re: Lamp finials 20: Displaying ships 21: 340 mm Provence guns 22: Tracing history 23: Re: Russian PE 24: Re: 1/4"-28 screws 25: Revell-Germany releases - Oscar, Skipjack, Wasp 26: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman 27: Oregon ventilators -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: LST's --- LCVP's --- LCT's Models are in stock -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Bruce Buchner" Subject: Coast Guard Cutter Bear I just purchased the new 1/700 JAG kit of the Bear. I looks to be a fine kit and includes the decals for thorange stripe on the bow. What it does not include are painting instructions. From the color photo on the box top you can tell it has a white hull and upperworks with black masts and either a red or orange helocopter. Anyone know what color the decks are and the correct color of the helo? Bruce Buchner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Richard Simpson Subject: Desk colour of USS Alabama (BB-60) today From the photos I have seen, the Alabama has mainly raw teak desks today but some of the deck is painted. While the photos I have reviewed have a lot of glare from the painted sections they certainly don't look like the black/blue that I understood WWII "Deck Blue" to be. Can anyone tell me what colour these sections are currently painted? Thanks and Regards Richard Simpson Sydney, Australia Skipper, USS Alabama (BB-60), Australian Battle Group -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Book - "British Warships of the Second World War" by John Roberts The current issue (February 2001) of the US Naval Institute Proceedings lists this new book available from the NIP Book Service. The description is: This large-format volume showcases World War II British ship plans from Great Britain's National Maritime Museum and archives. Each plan is is reproduced at a size that ensures the relevant details of the vessel are visible. 160 pages. 100 illus ISBN 1-55750-220-X List price 55.00 USD. USNI members 38.50 USD ('til June). Has anybody seen this book and can speak about it? What ships are covered? Are the plans and drawings useable for a modeler? What are your opinions and recommendations about the book. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Another Sea RAM question Since I produce a model of the CIWS, this discussion of the Sea RAM is very interesting to me. I do have a question. I was sent a photo of the Sea RAM mounted on the Oldendorf. It doesn't have the radar dome and sighting system used on all the CIWS's. The photo on the Raytheon site shows the radar dome. Which of these is accurate? Or are they both accurate? Will the "domeless" version be used on American vessels while the "domed" version be used on RN vessels? I am seriously contemplating producing a kit of this new weapon and I would like a reliable answer. Personally, the "domed" version is the coolest looking version I have seen. I already have the master patterns finished for everything except the missile box. One way or the other, as soon as I get a definitive answer, I'll go into production of the kit. I'll also be posting the same question to Raytheon. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. You can now pay using your Visa / MasterCard Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: MAC Attack And A Parry >> How can that be??!!! It seems to me that having a Mac will be the beginning of your problems, not the end. :-) << Owning a MAC is akin to having the very best money can buy when the application calls for graphic arts power. I've used both Macs and PCs and much prefer a Mac when using publishing, photography and other graphic art applications. Check out any copy of Model Ship Journal and you'll see what I mean. If you compare many of the photos and drawings to their originals, you'd be amazed at the difference. The Mac is also cleaner to use from an artist's standpoint and it has a more 'intuitive' feel than the PC when using and storing files, etc. At one time, I sold computer books and software and noted that the users interested in multi-media and gaming applications preferred Macs in far greater numbers than PCs. There are other reasons to use Macintosh. For instance, it will often read Microsoft PC files with no trouble at all. My PC will not do that with Mac files and I find it mildly annoying and limiting as well. We'll still use our PC for office applications, but when we need 'pedal to the metal' graphic arts power, Macintosh is A-Number One. Victor Baca Editor & Publisher MODEL SHIP JOURNAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Ned Barnett" Subject: Arizona Brass? Picked up the old Revell 1/432 (or whatever) USS Arizona - anybody know of sources for decent aftermarket PE, resin or whatever for this box-scale kit? Also, any accessible detailed construction reviews would be welcome. Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Ned Barnett" Subject: Mystery Cruiser I'll be glad to concede that UK cruisers may have seen more action - they had more than two years to amass the experience, and some just seemed to be everywhere, all the time. I'm also glad to tip my hat to the brave men who served those ships during dark times ... HOWEVER That wasn't my question. Nobody know which US Cruiser fought in more different battles and wound up getting hit by a dud kamikaze? It's an interesting story, an interesting ship and maybe (just maybe) an interesting diorama (now that a kit of the ship's class is available). Anybody know? BTW - my source is a cruise book, now sadly long-gone (I made the mistake of loaning it to a fellow modeler who had more persuasiveness than integrity - but hey, it was the 70s, right? Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: doug brown Subject: US Naval information sites Greetings, While searching for information on RAM, found a great site for current US naval projects: http://www.dote.osd.mil/ Office of Director, Operational Test and Evaluation, Secretary of Defense The Search feature takes you to testing information on most current US military projects. One example - enter 'Virginia' and go to http://www.dote.osd.mil/reports/FY99/navy/99virginia.html Virginia (SSN774) Class Attack Submarine They also have interesting photos of live 'simulated ship shock tests' in the "Live Fire Test" section. Recommended, along with "Naval Technologies Current Projects" site for current worldwide naval projects: http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ doug -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: doug brown Subject: Re: Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) Hi again, More information on the Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM): http://www.dote.osd.mil/reports/FY99/navy/99ram.html Operational test information from Director, Operational Test and Evaluation, Secretary of Defense http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pao/ramblock1_exocetmissile.html RAM Block 1 successful test against Exocet Dec, 1998 Raytheon information: http://www.raytheon.com/es/esproducts/dssram/dssram.htm RAM GUIDED MISSILE WEAPON SYSTEM doug -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Loren Perry Subject: Peter Hall's Mac and PE Now I know why White Ensign Models' photoetched parts come the closest to matching GMM in quality - we also use a Mac. And it's not even state-of-the-art - it's an early 1990's Performa 578 purchased at the local Costco on discount. And it still churns out magnificent work. Peter's right - the MacIntosh and its specialized software allow PE graphic design that can take full advantage of the finest etching any manufacturer is capable of. Maybe those old fashioned PC's can match this with the right person at the controls, but to date I haven't seen any successful examples. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Torgeson Roger A KPWA" Subject: Re: Officer and Gentleman I have been following this discussion with some interest. I also have similar experiences. I have made it a point whenever I see a fellow wearing a ships hat to ask if he was on the ship. Often this leads to a friendly talk. Two quick examples, at the local naval museum I noticed a older gentleman with a USS Yorktown (CV-10) hat. I mentioned that I had seen the Yorktown when I was in the navy in the early 1960s. Turns out the Yorktown he was on was CV-5 of Midway fame, he went to the battleship Indiana after he got back to the US after Midway. We talked about the collision between the Indiana and the battleship Washington. I mentioned that resin kits were available that could be used to build both ships, that I had finished Classic Warships kit as the Washington and had the BWN Massachusetts. Next thing I knew I was in the back office, out of bounds to the public, looking through the collection of photographs the museum had. Turns out he worked at the museum. I volunteered to help identify ships that they didn't have names for and have gained a source of information. The second gentleman I met at one of the local hobby shops. I over heard him say he was on the USS San Francisco, seeing as I had recently finished reading a book on the Guadalcanal campaign, I asked what time period he was on the ship. It was after the ships repairs. He was on a admirals staff, spent time both on San Francisco and USS Wichita. Again I mentioned that I built ship models and that I had purchased 3 or 4 years ago a 1/350 resin kit of the San Francisco that matched the time frame he was on the ship. We found that he only lived about 45 minuets from my home, I was offered the use of some of his photos to help build the model. One look at his collection and I thought I had died and gone to heaven. Lou's photo collection numbers in the thousands. He has a large collection of books, oil paintings of ships and 1930's naval aircraft, and historic items including at the time of my last visit three weeks ago the Medal Of Honor and Navy Cross of a San Francisco sailor. If you have Steve Wipers San Francisco book you have seen some of his photos. What I am trying to say guys is, take the time to talk to these gentleman. We all know that time dulls one recollections and that some of what they say we have to take with a grain of salt, but you never know what gold mine of information you may run into. Roger Torgeson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: the screw threads and Mike Settle >> We're getting screwed up here. The discussion of NF vs NC threads by Mark Doremus is accurate. 1/4" pipe is actually .540" in diameter. Pipe thread is tapered, called NPT in the US, unless it is straight in which case it is called NPS. 1/4" size is 18 threads per inch. In the UK they use British threads which are another system. I'm kidding here a little, but the best advice is still to go to the oldest hardware store you know of, and find the oldest clerk you can find, with the parts in hand, and ask him or her how to screw them together. Look for a hardware store where they will sell you one screw, not those damned plastic bags of just exactly the wrong number of prepackaged items. The old fashioned store wants to help you solve your problem, so you will come back; the big chain wants to move merchandise. By the way, a couple of hours in a hardware store on a rainy day is a great education. << Gary is right, especially about finding an old time hardware store somewhere, if you can. I spent 14 years traveling for wholesale hardware distributors calling on around 30 different independently owned stores. Regretfully, this type of store is going the way of the battlecruiser and big guns. I really miss one store in particular where the coffee pot was always on and there was always a game of Hearts being played at the table in the back of the store. Our catalogs contained around 38,000 items, so I know a little bit about everything, without being an expert on any of it! :-) I am now employed at one of those "big box" chains, Lowes, because they have managed to stay in business, unlike 3 of the independent distributors I formerly worked for. The same advice applies in the chain stores, though, stay away from the kids and look for the old fella that looks like he has been there for years. But, like Gary says, it just isn't the same. Moving a high volume of merchandise is the priority, rather than chewing the fat, socializing with the old guy that has worked there since he was 14 years old, or carrying that slow moving, but really neat piece of merchandise that might only sell 3 or 4 times a year. By the way, you may also hear NF (National Fine) threaded bolts referred to as SAE (Society of American Engineers). Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: 1/4" - 28 screws Should be available from any auto parts store that has a Pik-a-nut or similar assortment. HTH Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto Maritime Photography http://warshipphotos.com Warship Models Underway http://warshipmodelsunderway.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: FRAM resource book Reading about the request for Gyatt information reminded me about a great resource for FRAM material: FRAM Das Modernisierrungsprogramm der US Navy 1959 - 1964 By Stefan Terzibaschitsch ISBN 3-469-00549-4 Although in German, the book consists mostly of photos of various FRAM ships, mainly destroyers, but also carriers, subs, auxiliaries and more. Something like 250 photos, and about 25 drawings. It was printed in 1999. I got my copy from a buddy in Germany, but you may be able to find it through Amazon.de or another bookseller. I highly recommend it to people interested in the various configurations of US Navy DD's during that time of experimentation. Photo quality is OK, it is printed on non-glossy stock and the resolution is not exceptional, but still very useful for the modeler. Now, if Steve Wiper did a book on that..... Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto Maritime Photography http://warshipphotos.com Warship Models Underway http://warshipmodelsunderway.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: French guns Hi All The 13.4 inch guns referred to were placed at Cap Cepet near Toulon and were of the 1912 model. They were not originally from Provence but were separate installations and consisted of 2 twin turrets. However, the French also scuttled these in 1942 at the same time as the fleet and the Germans hauled up two guns, taken from Provence to replace the two guns they couldn't repair. They were able to repair the other turret. One of the guns was sabotaged before D day and the other turret knocked out in an air raid. This left one of the Provence guns which contested the allied landings until silenced by Lorraine, Nevada et all. I have a photo of one of the original installations. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: 1/4"-28nf screws; was Lamp Finials >> For the record (and for those others on the list headed in that direction) neither Home Depot nor Lowes carry 1/4"-28 machine screws. They only carry the 1/4"-20 types. Will try Payless Cashways and/or Ace on Saturday. << Marc, You will not find a 1/4-28 thread machine screw. You will have to get a regular hex head type bolt if you want 1/4-28 threads. Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Tim Brooks" Subject: Re: USS Gyatt, a Gearing class DD Good timing. I was about to ask the list if anyone had any idea if a scale drawing of any sort might exist for Gyatt as DDG-1? I would like to model this on the Albatross hull. If I get real ambitious (and a decent drawing or plan) I am considering kitting the conversion in resin. Anybody able to help? Tim Brooks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "michael thrupp" Subject: Re: Skipjack and G-class submarines I agree with David about reactor model part - mine is somewhere deep in my spares box - I shall take Tom's advice and replace the propellor with a 5- bladed one (question for Tom - do these blades have a scimitar- crescent shape?). I also agree with Tom about hull of Aurora G-class sub - in this kit the hull is basically a cylindrical tube whereas my understanding of the real thing is that it was a stretched derivative of the Foxtrot class, I, like David, have attempted to 'accurise' this kit - I sanded the leading 'edge' of the sail to make it vertical and rebuilt the periscopes/shears? area. Rather than completely scratchbuild the hull (beyond my limited skills) I rebuilt the bow and stern with scrap plastic (not from the Aurora Atlantis) and Milliput for better shape, resited the bow diving planes and modified the rear planes and rudder. I also narrowed down (vertical view) the approx. 1st 1/4 and last quarters of the hull to make the hull taper more towards bow and stern a' la Foxtrot - there is a limit to how much this can be done due to the brittleness of the plastic and the shape /dimensions of the Aurora kit as the kit has a circular cross-section while the Foxtrot/Gulf had/has a more elliptical one. If I was doing it again I would narrow it down even more. I painted the hull above the waterline light grey/gray and below the waterline dark grey/gray. It would be great to see this kit reissued - I would then beg WEM or Nautilus Models or MB BWN for a new hull - one can but hope. Unlike Bill Clinton, living in Hope Mike Thrupp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "JAmes McCormick" Subject: Re: Lamp finials Heys Guys, If Lamp finials are so rare to come by, why doesn't someone cast them in resin? Yeah, resin aint brass, but I'm sure if say.... oh... I don't know..... CLASSIC WARSHIPS cast them or um lessee hear WHITE ENSIGN MODELS cast them, they would sell quite well. Using Gunze Sangyo Mr Metalizer brass paint, or Printer's ink, they would be the next best thing to brass. Just a sugg. Jim McCormick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Displaying ships I have never liked some of the more popular methods of supporting model ships on display. There is something not correct about a sailing ship with all sails set and filled, and no one on deck, whether the model is a waterline model, set on cradles, or on pedestals. The same may be said about iron ships as well, although they may operate with no one visible. I choose to display my models as though they were in a drydock. This method is much easier when there are no masts, rigging, superstructure, etc. installed yet, but the basic hull may be considered as "done". With the keel resting on a long row of keel-blocks on the floor of the "drydock", build several piles of smaller blocks which rise from the floor of the drydock to the bilges of the hull. These piles are called "cribbing", and they support the hull. Then remove the model and drill down through two or three sets of the keel-blocks set-ups, through the floor of the drydock and through the platform of the case. Now comes the tricky part. Set the model on the cribbing and pass a long nail up through the drilled hole and gently tap it to put a mark on the bottom of the keel. Remove the model and carefully drill a hole in the keel at this mark, this hole being enough smaller than a chosen woodscrew so that the screw will "bite" when inserted. Next re-set the model and pass a long woodscrew up through the hole in the platform, through the drydock floor, and the keel-block, and screw it into the keel, thus firmly affixing the model to the cribbing and to the keel-blocks. I have done this with a completed three-masted whaleship, and kicked myself for not mounting if before doing the topsides, masts, rigging, etc. Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "larsenal" Subject: 340 mm Provence guns Hello, Some very interesting posting these last days about the fight in August 1944 between the Nevada and Coastal batteries. In fact the Nevada was part of TF 85 with Texas, Philadelphia, Georges Leygues, and Montcalm. Their job was to protect the landings of the 45 th US Infantry Division by bombing the Coastal batteries. They engaged from August 15, to the end of the month such batteries, one of them was Batterie du Cap Cépet equiped at the moment with two 340 mm guns from the battleship Provence. Only one of these guns was serviceable at the moment. The fight lasted the whole day of August 20 with hits recorded on both sides (better say that Georges Leygues was hit two times by the Saint Elme battery with casualties on board, 1 dead 15 wounded). It was not until August 25 that the Cap Cépet battery ceased fire! Best regards, Jacques Druel L'Arsenal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Tracing history A friend is trying to find a bio on: Admiral John Drayton Wainwright Sounds like it could be either USN or RN or Canadian, Australian or New Zealand navies. Thanks for any help. John - Seattle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Russian PE Peter Hall wrote: >> I am currently looking at the possibility of a set of Russian Radar and other details in 1/700 scale, but will have to put it to Caroline as to whether or not the demand is great enough. OK then, who wants a set of Russian details in...................scale?????? << I do!! I want Russian details in 1/700 scale!! Rick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: 1/4"-28 screws I think I may have found my screws. I called the nearest Ace hardware store, asked if they had any 1/4"-28 machine screws. The fellow who answered the phone said the had some 1/4"-28 hex bolts, would that do? I told him it would. I figure I can widen the hole in the board to accept the hex head. Of course, now I know I can go to The Modelers Boatyard and get the brass mounting I need. At least I'll know where to go when these finials (actually lamp risers) run out. Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: doug brown Subject: Revell-Germany releases - Oscar, Skipjack, Wasp Greetings, There has been some discussion on the 'new' Revell Skipjack. For more information on the new Revell releases, go to: http://www.revell.de/katalog/index_a.html Click on 'Schiffe' The next page has information on: Kit 05052 Russian Oscar Class submarine, 1:700, April 2001 Kit 05065 Submarine USS Skipjack SSn-58 March 2001 Kit 05062 USS Wasp Class 1:700 May 2001 As noted by others, the Skipjack may be a reissue of the 60's era Aurora kit. Have fun! doug -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Paul Jacobs" Subject: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman >> My suspicion is that the guns were from the Provence, not the Richelieu. << According to LA MARINE FRANCAISE AU COMBAT VOL.2 by Michel Bertrand, the guns in question came from none of the above. They were indeed 340mm (13.4") the same caliber as mounted by the PROVENCE, BRETAGNE and LORRAINE, but none came from the salvage of any of the above. These were mounted BEFORE WWII by the French in two twin turrets at Cape Cepet near Toulon. A photo of one of these turrets can be found in this book at page 114. One other misconception should also be corrected. It was suggested that the Germans could have salvaged these guns from BRETAGNE, sunk at Mers El Kebir in 1940. This perpetuates the myth that Vichy France was German controlled, and that the French military were merely puppets of the German military. That is untrue. The Germans never controlled Algeria or Morocco, and the French would not have allowed them to salvage anything from their ships. The French held Algeria and Morocco exclusively until the Allies invaded in November 1942. The French Navy was never under German control during Vichy, which is clearly evident by what happened on November 27, 1942 when the fleet scuttled itself at Toulon, rather than allow the Germans to take it. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: Fred Kennamer Subject: Oregon ventilators The U.S.S. Oregon model by Gary Kingzett featured in the September 2000 Fine Scale Modeler has the inside of the ventilators painted red. Is this correct? I'm building one as she would have appeared after the Spanish-American War, with buff uppers and white hull. Thanks in advance, Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: LST's --- LCVP's --- LCT's Models are in stock We are proud to announce we have the "Limited Edition" of the rereleased Lindberg Kits. Each kit is made of plastic and can be painted and mounted as a splendid display model. All kits are 16.50 each. GOTO http://www.modelshipbuilding.com/amphibious_and_support.html Shaya Novak Naval Base Hobbies The Store for The Model Ship Builder www.modelshipbuilding.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume