Subject: SMML VOL 1143 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 01:05:05 -0800 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Rabbit 2: Linoleums 3: Re: IJN Yukikaze 4: Re: Mystery Cruiser 5: "Advanced Shipmodeling" 6: Using slotted brass pedestals 7: KG V armament 8: HMS Jamaica & Furious 9: wood decks on steel ships 10: Re: Revell Skipjack et al 11: Re: Advanced Shipmodeling 12: Re: Brass Pedestals 13: Re Slotted Pedestals 14: Re: Clamps and hardware stores 15: Mystery Cruiser Answer 16: Re: IJN Yukikaze 17: Re: USCG Bear 18: M1 sub 19: Colour of Flowers 20: Re Slotted Pedestals 21: USN Museum Ships 22: Re: Pedestals 23: Paint formula needed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: For sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "P Chant" Subject: Re: Rabbit >> The recent thread on "tiddly" had me thinking about another word ."Rabbit". Here in the Dockyard in Halifax, it means among other things, a free fix of something for a ship, a favour to a dockyard matey or sailor, a personal bit of work or a payment for a bottle of rum. Anyone know where the word originated? << According to Maritime Books' marvelous "Jackspeak", a guide to RN slang, the phrase "a rabbit", for a gift, originated in Chatham Dockyard. A small island in the harbour was overrun with rabbits and these were taken home by the workers as free meat! Peter Chant Plymouth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Linoleums Hi Jeff The British did, Linoleum in all its forms varied quite significantly - Semtex was a trade name as was Wundergrip and Corticene. There were others and I know of several very different colours within one type and even some with added woodchip to make them look nice (internal of course). Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Ramires, Filipe C" Subject: Re: IJN Yukikaze Hello list AFAIK the more modern Japanese (late 30's) had the decks painted with the same colour of the hull, Dark Gray, but there are some classes like the Hatsuharu that had linoleum decks before the war. I don't know if the same if applicable to the Kagero class and to the Yukikaze! Just my humble opinion. Regards. Filipe C. Ramires Colchester, UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Ramires, Filipe C" Subject: Re: Mystery Cruiser What about USS San Diego and USS San Juan? They also have an active participation during the war and I think one of them was heavily damage late war. Filipe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: "Advanced Shipmodeling" >> Anyone know a US Source for this book, Advanced Shipmodeling by Brian King. The only place I found it was Military Book Club. I'm not sure if I want to get it from a place that has Clubs made out of Military Books, for USD$.98 ;>) << Sure, Caboose Hobbies in Denver, Colorado. I got mine there for $23.95 and it's a wonderful book full of breathtaking warship models. While you're at their Web site, look into all of the other books on shipmodeling they carry. Quite impressive for a model railroad hobby shop. http://www.caboosehobbies.com Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Member, Nautical Research Guild -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Using slotted brass pedestals >> I looked at the Model Expo brass pedestals. They all have slots for keels. Since I'm doing subs, all I have are bilge keels that run along the sides of the hull. To those of you who use these slotted pedestals, how do you mount your ships on them? << Good question, Marc. I use Model Expo's brass pedestals exclusively since they're inexpensive, come in three different heights, and are a quality item. I used these to mount my 1/192 DD model of KIDD. All I had to do was pad the pedestal with a cloth, mount it in a bench vise, cut off the slotted "ears" with a hacksaw, apply the top of the pedestal to my bench grinder to smooth out the resulting cut, then polish with Brasso and finally, cover with a clear gloss overcoat. (I used Testors Glosscote) Makes it look like the proverbial (and mythical) museum model. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Member, Nautical Research Guild -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Chris Drage" Subject: KG V armament Hi all, Had to give up on the Qs and Rs diorama temporarily as there is no further information re colours/camo forthcoming. Shame, as I have four lovely little resin Qs and Rs sitting waiting for detailing. The next one is going to be a bit easier. KGV at anchor in the Icelandic fiord with the gash out of her bow - Oribi anchored close by and Suffolk steaming past. (May 2nd '42). Does anyone have knowledge, or drawings of, KGv's armament at this time? The R&R ensign tells us that there were additional 20mm AA guns fiutted but where? Be grateful if anybody can point me in the right direction. ..and Shane, that's not towards the edge of the cliff! {:¬) Regards Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo kupu kaore e taea te karo (Te reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: HMS Jamaica & Furious I am looking for any views of the cruiser Jamaica in late 1943 and/or early 1944 showing her in a two tone disruptive patterned camouflage, not to be confused with the Admiralty Standard Scheme that was applied later, or the earlier three and four tone patterned camouflage that was applied in mid 1942. I am also looking for any photos showing the deck camouflage of the carrier Furious in the 1943 time frame. I have samples of the colours that were taken from the ships paint locker, but I need to confirm the pattern that I have, against photos. This deck camouflage (circa 1943), was different in range of colours and in pattern to that used in the 1941/42 time frame. Any help would be appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Ned Barnett Subject: wood decks on steel ships Why (other than tradition) would steel ships in the 20th century have wooden decks? I was looking at a modern Soviet destroyer kit and was surprised at the intensity of the wood color - and since the Sovs were not exactly slaves to tradition, I figure there must be some reason that modern navies throughout the world have wood-decked steel ships - but I can't even guess what that reason would be. Any takers? Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Revell Skipjack et al David Wells wrote: >> There are details of the sailstructure that Ken Hart wrote an article a few years back about correcting >> There are details of the sail structure.....that involved major plastic surgery. << My recollection is that the plastic surgery needed is not that bad, but I'm not going to contradict Ken.... << Ken's article involved correcting the slope of the sail as viewed from the front and the leading edge. He described two methods to accomplish this. As always, Ken does a "full-up" accuratization. >> The project is now stalled because I haven't got a good enough method to finish stretching the sail/conning tower. << Have you considered either building a totally new sail out of Plastruct beams & styrene sheeting? Alternatively, I have reshaped sails (See USS Blenny on the SteelNavy page, which is a Bondo buildup done before the Nautilus resin kits were available) with Bondo. Embed a couple of Plastruct "I-"beams to hold the Bondo once it sets up. Sand to shape and touch up with glazing putty. I add metal and plastic bits cut to shape for details. >> Keep in mind that Aurora did this kit in the late '60s, and they had only minimal information on what the Golf-class looked like. << Absolutely true. Interestingly they did get the fact that it had three propellers correct. The correct stern, to my eye, resembles a somewhat modified Type XXI U-boat stern. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Advanced Shipmodeling John wrote: >> Anyone know a US Source for this book, Advanced Shipmodeling by Brian King? << Hi John! I got mine from Wise Owl Publications in Redondo Beach, CA , where I also order my subscription to Model Boats magazine. Here is the URL, although you will have to email them for the current price: http://wiseowlmagazines.homestead.com/index.html The book is well worth the trouble to get. Be advised it will probably take several weeks to order. Kurt SeaPhoto Maritime Photography http://warshipphotos.com Warship Models Underway http://warshipmodelsunderway.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Brass Pedestals Hi SMML, In the past, I've used some brass pedestals from Bluejacket Ship Crafters (www.bluejacketinc.com) that are hollow so you can put screws through them into the model but that are not slotted for keels. For some reason, I cannot find them on the Bluejacket web site, so you might want to call them. Having said that, I'm intrigued by the brass pedestals I saw on the Modelers Boatyard web site, and might try using them. Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re Slotted Pedestals >> I looked at the Model Expo brass pedestals. They all have slots for keels. Since I'm doing subs, all I have are bilge keels that run along the sides of the hull. To those of you who use these slotted pedestals, how do you mount your ships on them? << I just fill in that section with a handy piece of resin or plastic and paint it. It is not noticeable except to someone who picks up the model and turns it over, A person who won't live to spill the beans anyway!! :-) Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Clamps and hardware stores >> I also found some neat clamps with adjustable pads on the tips. Put them to work right away when I got home to hold a couple of fuselage halves together. << Sears makes a nice mini set that has long nose clamps that are quite useful >> Time in a hardware store is never wasted. << Amen to that, especially the older dustier ones!!! Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Mystery Cruiser Answer John F. wrote (edited a bit for length): >> At Empress Augusta Bay we had Adm. Tip Merrill's TF 39 consisting of Cleveland, Montpelier, Denver and Columbia ... Battle stars awarded these cruisers were, in the same order, 13, 13, 11, 10. San Francisco was awarded 17. ... As for the dud Kamikaze, I can't find a mention of this in DANFS for the listed cruisers. If there is a serious gap in my knowledge, please I beg of you fill it in before I go off the deep end and start looking for 1/4-28NPT metricoctagonalsocket screws. << John Don't go off the deep end. First, I misread a couple of books on Light Cruisers - my Mystery Cruiser is the most-decorated LIGHT Cruiser (my bad) - sorry for the inadvertent red herring. The ship in question was USS Montpelier, C.L. 57 - the subject of a dull-but-informative book (a published contraband diary by seaman James C. Fahey) - and the subject of the cruise book I once owned (it had formerly been my father's - he served on the Monty in '45 through the Kamikaze era). The ship was hit by a dud kamikaze - DANFS notwithstanding. I have seen photos of the plane exploding off the starboard side (after it bounced back into the water) and I've seen photos of the dented bulkhead (and read the captions describing same). This was the closest of four kamikaze attacks directed at that charmed ship. As I said, the plane hit the water, skipped like a stone and hit the ship, bounced off and exploded about 50 yards off the starboard beam on re-hitting the water. White knuckle time for all concerned. The ship was modeled in two scales by Lindbergh, back in the dark ages when we all had to watch B&W TV by candle-light - one was a box scale and the other was in their "ship in a bottle" series. I built both, many times, and am intensely grateful that the ship is now modeled (kitted?) in a for-real 1/700 scale kit. HINT TO VENDORS: I don't have the kit or any after-market PE or resin or decals (if such exist); however, I would be willing to trade cash-money American for same if such exists, for sale. I've seen the Squadron Shop price and hope to do better (hope, like trampolines, springs eternal) ... Next time I do a mystery ship, I'll specify US LIGHT Cruiser when I ask ... Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Dboykap@aol.com Subject: Re: IJN Yukikaze Ah yes, the endless discussion about IJN Linoleum. Aside from carriers and the battleships (aside from their seaplane decks), all IJN warships that were constructed thru 1942 had portions of their decks covered with linoleum. War experience showed such deck coverings to be flammable, so a mid-war policy was enacted to strip decks of the linoleum as well as eliminate such coverings in new construction. The general trend was to remove the linoleum, though the circumstance of any given IJN ship's actually removing the linoleum is a combination of circumstance, access to facilities and commander's discretion. There are numerous photos of surrendered IJN vessels at war's end still carrying linoleum. This is also true of Yukikaze. The Japanese publication Gakken #19 on the Kagero DD and Agano CL classes (with a late war Yukikaze and Yahagi models) has a number of clear photos of Yukikaze at Kure, postwar. There is one in particular, taken from the bow and looking aft over the forecastle at the bridge, that clearly shows the brass stripping and linoleum tiles in place. "A" turret and the forward 25mm AA mount and platform have been removed but no housing structure for the IJN troop repatriation voyages has yet been installed. As to color, various sources, Skulski included, describe it as a light milk chocolate brown, whatever that shade really is. Weathering clearly makes it darker. Tamiya makes a Red-Brown that depicts a dark version of it; other choose to make the color a little lighter with more tan. HTH, Dan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Craig R Bennett Subject: Re: USCG Bear Hi Guys Concerning the use of Helicopters on the AOR'S. I went to the county library to research this out as I was going there today. I searched from 1980-2000 and it seems they were rated for only CH-46's. The Ch-53 seem only to serve on Heliocopter carriers for troop transport and was used for minesweeping and if you made a model of one you want to use it for your model. Go ahead because modeling is meant to be fun and if you make into work then the fun ends. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: darsamr@supanet.com Subject: M1 sub Hi Franklyn, According to a recent BBC documentary, the M1 was lost after colliding with a ship. It is thought that some may have attempted an escape from the sunken vessel through the hatches. What is certain,is that all hands were lost. Others might be able to provide you with more details. All the best, Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: tom dean Subject: Colour of Flowers Hi Gang; The very early (1940-41) Canadian Flowers were painted AP507C (light Grey) overall. The ships coming out in 41-42 were painted MS4A (medium Grey) overall. And overall seems to mean just that "overall". Western Approaches and other camo schems followed later. John Snyders camo chip charts would cover the topic and would be very helpful. Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: Re Slotted Pedestals >> To those of you who use these slotted pedestals, how do you mount your ships on them? << Following is to be taken in a light hearted manner so as to prevnt a flame war. Mark, 1. Insert pedestal in vise. 2. Place suitable eye protection in place on your head. 3. Using the tool of your choice, simply remove the excess material. Hint: If you use a large diameter gindstone in a dremel or drill you will have a nice convex surface that with a little judicious use of elbow grease and a file will match your hull shape. Or just counter bore a hole in the model's hull. In either case, a long wood screw thru your display base and the pedestal into a pilot hole in the hull and you're moored against the hundred year storm. >> As for wasting time at hardware stores that could have been used for modeling -- HA! << Mark, my friend, I said stores, not to be confused with Hardware Stores which are one of the last male bastions for us mechanically inclined souls. We hide them from the general population so we can go and spent hours in peace and quiet picking out the right screws for use in lamp finials to hold up ship models. (Bet you thought you were the first to get get confused) Now that you know about hardware stores, sigh, we will have to extract your promise to never reveal its existence to anyone that frequents a Do-It -Yourselfer's Stuper store. Oh, and thanks Gary, I guess the Rustoleum Gray Primer dosn't look so bad after all on an early war Canadian (I am not afraid to say it) FLOWER CLASS CORVETTE. John Frohock -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: USN Museum Ships I was just reading an article on the "Donated Ship Inspection Program". Since 1996, the Naval Reserve has had responsibility for conducting annual assessments of the 46 former naval vessels that have been donated to museum organizations in 21 states across the US. It seems that the ex-BARRY (DD 933) may be replaced by the retired frigate OLIVER HAZARD PERRY (FFG 7) at the Washington Navy Yard in the near future. No word on when an actual decision may be made. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: Pedestals >> I looked at the Model Expo brass pedestals. They all have slots for keels. Since I'm doing subs, all I have are bilge keels that run along the sides of the hull. To those of you who use these slotted pedestals, how do you mount your ships on them? << Dremel tool and a cutting wheel and a lot of swearing. Hold carefully: the cutting wheel takes a while to cut those little ears off, but would be much quicker on your fingers. And do it outside or over something and with breath protection, 'cause I doubt brass dust is good for anything much. Then I attach them to a chunk of wood, drill hole through same, run brass flat-head screws (dunno the pitch, sorry :-) up from below nestling into a countersunk hole in the base, through the bottom of the ship, into the brass screws I've superglued there.If done carefully, I can take my ships off and on their bases as the spirit moves me. San Jacinto and Prince of Wales and Yamato, all 1/350, are thus. Allan Plumb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Keith Butterley Subject: Paint formula needed Hi, Can somebody tell me the formula to use for mixing the following colours, using Model Master or Humbrol paints preferably the latter. 5-H Haze Grey 5-O Ocean Grey 5-N Navy Blue 20-B Deck Blue These are to be used on our round bridge Fletcher's. Thankyou in advance. Keith Butterley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: CokerRE@aol.com Subject: For sale THE FOLLOWING ITEMS ARE FOR SALE JAPANESE NAVY --- WORLD WAR II Top quality Plans by Kwai Associates redrawn from Official plans Yamato 1945 1/200 $100 Kongo 1941 reduced scale w perspectives $40 Yamashiro 1/200 $80 Akagi 1941 reduced scale but with perspectives $40.00 Japanese Books Maru Series: # 14 Ashigara, #29 Submarine Tenders, #31 large submarines, #34 Tenders, #39 Otori and Turrutzuki, #42 minelayers, #43 submarines, #45 River Gunboats, #47 Minesweepers, #49 Subchasers, #50 Landing Ships, #56 Carriers, #93 Japanese invasion of Malaya, #95 Japanese attack on Ceylo $25.00 each reply off list to cokerre@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume