Subject: SMML VOL 1145 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 00:28:10 -0800 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Painting Decks and Hulls 2: Re: Wooden planked decks 3: Hedgehogs 4: Thinner alternatives 5: Re: Modelmaster enamels - Thinners 6: Re: Paint formula 7: Föhnbg== 8: IJN improved-Agano class cruisers 9: Re: WOODEN DECKS 10: Re: Mystery Cruiser 11: James C. Fahey and Jim Fahey 12: US Naval Submarine Force Museum 13: Library Book Sales was Re: E-Bay insanities !!!! 14: Re: Titanic Plans 15: Re: British M-1 submarine 16: HMS Fearless 17: Re: Titanic Plans 18: Slotted Pedestals 19: New books from Poland 20: PM: Space-based laser successfully passes test 21: Model Expo 22: PM: Russia's Radical New Fighter: JANUARY 2001 23: Soviet deck and other spaces 24: Salute 25: Sea Classic responders 26: Minisubs Attack Sydney 27: Pearl Harbor Mystery Ship 28: Re: Titanic plans 29: Phlox of Lotuses (or is that Loti?) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Looking to trade or buy 2: For sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: johnny chen Subject: Painting Decks and Hulls I don't know if there is already a FAQ on this or how many times this has been discussed, as I am a relatively new enthusiast. I'm trying to build a Type 42 "Manchester". My problem is how to have a "perfect" hull/vertical structure and deck painting. I'm using Tamiya acrylic paints (thinned by Tamiya acrylic thinner) and uses Tamiya SprayWorks spraygun. My approach was first to spray the darker deck/top side color (hull as a parts yet), then after a day, I sprayed the vertical-sides/walls with lighter color. Afterwhich, I glued them together using Tamiya Cement. Problem #1. Some excess cement comes out and very distracting to the model. I need to scrape them? and repaint them again? Problem #2. After glueing, I found out that I have some parts that were left unpainted, how do I approach this? Masking the top side using 3M masking tape was an option I used on one occasion. But is there any other simplier way to do this? Problem #3. Paint comes off slightly when exposed to water. (such as washing the hull after if was painted [silly me]). Do I need to use a clear top coat? If I use Tamiya Clear coat thinned with acrylic thinner, is the a good idea? Problem #4. I tried to use paint brush on the missiles (white), but result is not desirable. There are some residues hanging on to the painted area. What is the best way to do this? Hope you can help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Mark Shannon" Subject: Re: Wooden planked decks The answer to why steel ships got wooden planked weather decks can be answered in one word - traction. If you have ever slipped on wet concrete or a wet steel plating platform, you'll understand. Even when the steel or concrete is roughened by using sand in the paint, the wooden deck (bare, not painted) is going to have better traction, When wet, the wood has more friction. Linoleums (corticene, semtex, etc.) were formulated to a rubbery surface feel. The choice of wood depended on the use and country. IIRC, even the 'teak' decks referred to two different woods from different tree species. 'Fir' planking for American carrier decks was another choice, as was the lower density mahogany (Is that the Luaun or the Philippine?). Oak had been used, though not as often on steel ships. The teak and fir (cypress, cedar) were commonly chosen because of their natural resins making them self-preserving without the tarriness of pine pitch. Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Ned Barnett" Subject: Hedgehogs Hedgehogs are "spigot mortars" - the bombs sit impaled on those "rods" you asked about; when fired, an internal charge boosts the bomb off the rod and into the air, forward of the firing ship. There are other, better books on Fletchers on the market (though I like the Squadron book as a good overview), and Floating Drydock (http://www.floatingdrydock.com) has some great plans with lots of useful details. Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Ned Barnett" Subject: Thinner alternatives Go to an auto paint store - buy their best enamel thinner by the gallon and save huge bucks over a gallon of hobby-formulated thinner - I can't remember the name, but I recall a South Carolina model club I was in 25 years ago bought gallons and parceled them out to members - they went a LONG way (the thinner is formulated for use for a given temperature - important for garage modelers). Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Modelmaster enamels - Thinners >> The hobby stores sell thinners as well as brush cleaning concoctions for around $87.95 a gallon or more. What is the appropriate alternatives: Lacquer Thinner, Mineral Spirits,....????? I know lacquer thinner works on their "lacquers" like dull cote, clear coat etc but I'm just trying some of their "enamels". << I usually use the manufacturer's thinner to thin paint before airbrushing or regular brushing. The manufacturer's thinners have been formulated to give the best results with their lines of paint. I use plain old hardware store brand lacquer thinner to clean my airbrush or paint brushes, though. It doesn't waste the expensive stuff on general cleaning duties. However, many modelers, including myself, have experimented with lacquer thinners or mineral spirits with excellent results. I have successfully airbrushed using lacquer thinner with Testors enamels. Due to the "hotter" nature of the lacquer thinner, the paint dries and cures on the model a bit quicker, especially with gloss colors. Experiment a little bit on a scrap model and see what works for you. Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Paint formula A Freudian slip crept into my posting of yesterday when I labelled HUMBROL #112 as Asphalt. It should have read TARMAC. Sorry about that. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: FrederKappes@netscape.net (Friedrich Kappes) Subject: Föhnbg== Who could give me any kind of picture of the German WWII rocket launcher "Föhn" type? Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://sites.netscape.net/friedkappes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Gernot Hassenpflug Subject: IJN improved-Agano class cruisers Hello fellow IJN afficionados, I hope someone can help with further information here, as mine is ambiguous. I am trying to find information to build an improved-Agano light cruiser, and have bought a resin conversion kit (WWS) for it. The kit says to use most of the parts from Tamiya's Agano/Yahagi on the resin hull, and to fit the fourth 152mm turret behind the first one, giving a configuration of bow turrets similar to the Mogami class. Furthermore, there are notes that the funnel and vents look more like those of the Oyodo. Historically, the follwing notes are given: The improved Agano class was authorized in the 5th naval reinforcement plan of 1942 in response to weaknesses of the Agano class. Their purpose was to act as flagships for destroyer flotillas. This ship was given plan number C44, build (slip?) number 80, and a total of 5 ships were authorized. After Midway debacle and the worsening war situation, the 5th naval plan was revised and only 2 ships were to be built. At last, none were in fact ever completed. The revidsed build numbers were changed from 810-814 to 5037-5038. Specifications: Displacement (standard) 8520t Dimensions: length (wl) 184.0m x width (oa) 16.4m x draft 5.86m Speed: 37.5knots @ 1530000 SHP Armament: 152mm 50cal twin guns in 4 turrets 76mm twin guns in 4 mountings triple 25mm AA three mounts 61cm quad TT, two mounts 2 aircraft Armour: belt 60mm, deck 20mm, same as for Agano class. Machinery was identical to Shimakaze destroyer, and it is thought that high-pressure boiler would have been used. Although the ship appears to be simply an Agano type with a fourth turret, the hull was actually a completely new design, and although the upperworks too are basically as for the Agano, the funnel and air vents should be more like those of the Oyodo. Then, I had a look at Jentshura, Jung and Mickel's Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy 1869-1945, where there was no reference to an improved Agano class as such. The entires for the Oyodo calss do however, apart from Oyodo and Niyodo, also show hull Nos. 810-814 (8500t standard displacement) and Nos.5037-5038 (8520t standard displacement), a total of 7 ships. According to Jung the Oyodo is the improved Agano design. My opinion is that Jung is wrong: 810-814 are for imrpoved Agano class ships under No.5 naval plan, reduced to 2 ships under revised No.5 plan and renumbered 5037-5038. Lastly, I have a book from a publisher called KOEI, in their Military Illustrated series, entitled: "Unfinished Warships 1906-1945" in japanese. It has only a small entry for the improved Agano class, and lists it as a 1941 design. Here is the blurb from the book, translated roughly: The Agano class was a great improvement compared to the old 5500t light cruisers, but they were still too small and thus to accommodate a 4th turret a larger type was put into the 5th naval reinforment plan. 5 ships were planned, of which one would become the flagship of a destroyer flotilla while the other four would make up an escort squadron for capital ships. In addition, in the 6th naval plan another ship was included as a destroyer flotilla flagship, but owing to the worsening war situation no ships were completed. Sister ships: 6 ships planned (5 in plan 5, 1 in plan 6) A drawing accompanying the blurb shows an Agano-type hull and superstructure, a thicker funnel (like Oyodo, but without the trunking on the lower forward side of the funnel), and a fourth turret - superfiring over Y turret! Quite different from the WWS model. My opinion is that the numbers for the ships are also wrong, as stated above for Jung. The specs are the same as my first ref though. Lastly, I just purchased Volume 4 in Shizuo Fukui's set of books on the IJN, entitled History of Japanese Cruisers. In the last part of the book is a section on the improved Agano class, lamentably short though. The specs are basically similar, although confusingly the AA armament (also for the Agano class) is alternately referred to as 8 cm and 7.6cm. Also the main guns are referred to as 15 cm or 152mm. A note explins that they are actually 152mm and 80mm AA, but colloquially referred to as 15cm and 8cm. No mention is made of the position of the stated 4th 6 inch turret. The number of hulls is said to be 5 reduced to 2 later, as above. I also looked at Volume 15 of Photographs of IJN Vessels, which details light cruisers. This has a sketch of the improved Agano class, as in the KOEI book, with a fourth turret in X position, superfiring over Y turret. I do not have my cherished Lacroix with me in Japan, though I hope to have it sent surface mail sometime this year.... Any help would be most appreciated. Sorry for the long post. Best regards, Gernot Hassenpflug -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: HGYL@aol.com Subject: Re: WOODEN DECKS The main purpose of wooden decks on steel ships is to provide insulation for the spaces beneath them. Have a look at where the wooden decks are on Flower class corvettes; above the forward messdeck and above the after cabins. Many modern break bulk reefer ships still have wooden decks to insulate the cargo spaces (in addition to other types of insulation used in the cargo spaces). The second purpose of wooden decks is of course to provide a non slip surface. Harold Lincoln -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: Re: Mystery Cruiser >> Now that is interesting. Ned Barnett writes about a light cruiser described in a book by a seaman named James C Fahey. Could that also be Jim Fahey, who is associated with the Model shop onboard the USS Salem? Hmm? << Gary, It would be too much to ask. Mr. James C. Fahey contacted the museum and discussed his original manuscript of Pacific War Diary.and its donation to the Museum. Unfortunatly for us, he passed away several months later without doing anything about it. Current where abouts of the manuscript are unkown to us or in the hands of the USNHC. Which is kind of a travesty as the Navy tried to stop publication of the book beceause it was written contrary to Navy Regs in force at the time regarding diaries. I believe it was Arliegh Burke himself who told Fahey "to hell with the Navy, publish it anyway." Of course Burke was CNO at the time and who was gonna complain to him? Anyway it is a wonderful account of nearly the entire Pacific War written by a young sailor from Waltham, Massachusetts who really was there writing practically as it was happening. Highly recommended reading. Recommended by James F. Fahey, Curator/Archivist, USS Salem,US Naval Shipbuilding Museum,Quincy, MA. John Frohock USNSM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: James C. Fahey and Jim Fahey Gary Kingzett wrote: >> Now that is interesting. Ned Barnett writes about a light cruiser described in a book by a seaman named James C Fahey. Could that also be Jim Fahey, who is associated with the Model shop onboard the USS Salem? Hmm? << Sorry, but the Jim Fahey at the USNSM (USS Salem) is not the same man. Jim served until retirement in the US Coast Guard, then worked until retirement with the Commonwealth of Massachusetts as a military archivist. He is now the archivist for the United States Naval & Shipbuilding Museum here in Quincy. Jim brought with him thousands of artifacts and records that date from the Revolutionary War (US) through the Gulf War. His specialty is WWI and he has personally excavated and restored many items found on a farm in France. Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) United States Naval & Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http://www.uss-salem.org/ (temporarily down due to a server problem) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: US Naval Submarine Force Museum Does anyone out there know what happening at the US Navy's Submarine Force Museum, where the USS Nautilus is located. Their web site only mentions that their parking lot is closed due to construction. Does any one know what they are doing? One benefit to their construction is that the German Seehund minisub will be relocated to the USNSM (USS Salem). It will be displayed on the pier alongside the USS Salem. Jim Fahey may also get one of the type of torpedoes that the Seehunds carried. Model content: Anyone know if there is a model of the Seehund class? In any scale or medium? Thanks. Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) United States Naval & Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http://www.uss-salem.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Library Book Sales was Re: E-Bay insanities !!!! Hi Folks, John Sheridan is exactly right with what he terms ebay insanities!!! These folks who are bidding these amounts are either total nutcases or start their fireplaces with stacks of $100 dollar bills!!!! No matter how you try to justify it, YOU DON'T NEED TO PAY $150 for these books..... I got my copy of "British Battleships" at a library book sale for: are you folks sitting down......$5.00!!!! That's right, $5.00.... I discovered several years ago a thing known as library book sales. A library book sale store had been given space by a local mall owner and that is just what they did. I regularly attend book sales at libraries in my area. Most of the larger libraries run these sales once or twice a year. They sell books that are not checked out enough as well as donated books. My copy of "British BB's" was donated and was like new. One of the tricks, though, is to attend the "Patron Session". Many of these sales have a patron session, usually the night before where for a donation, you can go in ahead of the public and have the pick of the litter, so to speak...These patron sessions are usually attended by, you guessed it, book dealers!!! They pay $2, $5 or maybe $10 for these types of books and then list them at 20, 30, 50 times that on so-called "rare book exchanges". I usually call ahead to see what the library has before becoming a "patron". One such trip netted me, according to some of these ridiculous prices, several hundred dollars worth of OT books, such as the one mentioned above, as well as "Flush Decks and Four Pipes" for $3.00, "US Cruisers:An Illustrated Design History" for $5, and several of the Squadron Signals for $1 each as they were "paperbacks!! The trick is to be patient and attend the sales. I am amazed at how many OT books I have been able to find over the last couple of years doing this. There is a website that lists these, but check your local library. I was able to buy an ot book right off of the shelf!! It was an out-of print WWI a/c profile book that had last been checked out in 1996!! When I enquired as to if I could purchase it, the librarian told me it would have been placed in their weekly sales anyway as it was considered "O-interest". I made a $10 donation as they were going to give it to me for free!!! They do this regularly to reclaim shelf space. The book has sold for as much as $60 on "LooneyBay". While some folks may not thing that a 12-18 books bought at these sales over a few years is a lot, you certainly can't beat the prices!!! Leaves your more to spend on those wonderful resin kits!!! Give these a try. Look for local book sales at churches and other organizations. Like Forrest Gump said: "You never know what you're gonna get......" Besides, the wife loves them also!!! Regards, John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "WEM" Subject: Re: Titanic Plans Hi Keith, A "must-have" are the Robert Hahn's Titanic plans in 1/350 Scale. There is a huge amount of detail packed into these so it's particularly useful for detailing the kit of the same scale. They can be ordered direct from the States, or we carry them at WEM. ATB Caroline Carter White Ensign Models (.. and it's forecast 70 degrees here in Sacramento today!) http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: British M-1 submarine That British M-1 submarine would be quite a different model to make, what with a 12' gun and all. Any SMML modelers interested? The BBC documentary has been shown in Canada, I hope to catch it in the USA soon. Now that the ill-fated ship has been brought to the public's attention, perhaps more information can be found. Sic 'em, Tigers. Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Nuno Andresen Portela" Subject: HMS Fearless Hello list, I have good news for myself. I finished a model last evening, I'm going to start a model this evening and I am going to start to reserch my next project. I decided to try a 1/350 scale Falklands War HMS Fearless after I got a book "La Guerre des Malouines" an amazing inspiration source just published for anyone with interest with this conflict. There is a primary reference, the venerable Airfix kit and the very good box art of it. However this is very little. Does anyone knows sources (books, links, plans, personel shots, veterans testimonies...whatever... ) about this almost forgoten assault ship (my references talk about 4000 missions made throught her during the Falklands conflict). Thanks in advance. Nuno Andresen Portela Porto PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Nuno Andresen Portela" Subject: Re: Titanic Plans Keith Bender wrote: >> I'm looking for a good set of Titanic plans. Any idea on where to find them? << Check http://titanic-model.com/ and make a tour over some incredible Titanic models like the one made by Robert LePines. Then look down the page for the link to Robert Hahn CAD plans. They are expensive but seam gorgeous. If you want just the plans go to http://www.titanic-plan.de/ Another set of plans is available thought http://www.taubmansonline.com/index.html. This ones were made by Abe Taubman and they are hand drawed. I can not state which ones are more accurate or represent the best value for money but probably someone can make a more detailed review (any help here, please). Nuno Andresen Portela Porto PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Reynaga, Tim@EDD" Subject: Slotted Pedestals >> ...At least for larger models, why not counter bore to the diameter of the slotted portion of the pedestal and bury the slotted portion within the hull; that would add tremendous strength to the mounting! << I agree completely. I ordinarily like to use lamp finials (actually, "risers"). They're great; just bore a small hole, screw them into a nut on the inside of the hull and you're done. Unfortunately, these only really work on hulls with flat bottoms like Iowa, Bismarck, KGV, etc. For hulls with more rounded bottoms like most cruisers and DDs, though, the flat tops of the brass risers look a little strange with those round hulls seemingly balanced precariously upon them. For these projects I use the slotted pedestals. These can be buried within the hull to provide an integrated fit of the curved hull around the mounts. I just bore out holes with my trusty No. 11 X-Acto in the correct positions on the hull. I work slowly, gradually widening the holes until the pedestals just barely fit in, tight. This hides the pedestal wings inside the hull. Then I construct simple "keels" of sheet plastic inside the hull to stabilize the two pedestals. This method is simple, doesn't risk your fingers (well, not much) and takes only a few minutes to create an attractive result. Tim Reynaga -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Damian Pliszka Subject: New books from Poland Hi group, There some new books from Profile Morskie series: No. 32 Dutch cruiser De Ruyter No. 33 Italian battleship Caio Duilio. There is also released (by the same publisher - BS) new series: Destroyers of The WW2. In first issue there are escort destroyers USS Gendreau (Bucley class), IJN Matsu and HMS Brissenden (Hunt IV class). At least there is announced new series called New Model Collection (it's strange... IMHO - Polish book with Polish text... and English title... ;-)). Anyway, this series is prepared with modelers in mind. First there will be published book with detailed plans of british monitors HMS Abercrombie and HMS Roberts. Hope this helps, Damian Pliszka Poland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: PM: Space-based laser successfully passes test http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/sci/0102STMIWFAP.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Peter Subject: Model Expo Last week I ordered a kit from Model Expo, whose web site promises next day shipment of in stock items. Unfortunately, the company automatically added a "free gift" to my order. The problems began when it turned out that the free gift is out of stock (the kit I ordered as a birthday present for my daughter was in stock-- I checked first because it is a gift). My order is now being held up waiting for the out of stock free gift to come in, meaning I have missed the deadline to get the gift in time. Over the course of the last five days I have emailed Model Expo six times and tried to call twice (both times I gave up after 10 and then 25 minutes on hold). There has been one email response, which promised to ship the order, though the company failed to do so. While others I am sure have had good experiences ordering from this company, my own has been less so and I encourage you to consider this before ordering from this firm. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: PM: Russia's Radical New Fighter: JANUARY 2001 http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/sci/0101STMIAP.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: SJantscher@aol.com Subject: Soviet deck and other spaces >> I was looking at a modern Soviet destroyer kit and was surprised at the intensity of the wood colour << >> The decks of modern soviet-russians ships are of steel. Simply they just paint them with that colour. It is some sort of paint to avoid rust and to make a weathering deck. I also had that doubt once but after studying the Sovremmeny's for a while I came to conclude that they were all steel. Perhaps the post-WWII ships still have those kinds of decks (50's) but after that I have strong doubts. << Hi All, Back when I was in the Navy, and assigned to the Saratoga as ship's company, I used to hob-nob with the spooks, and the question of the red-brown decks came up. Just what was the stuff? Well the story goes that early on, during a ship board tour held in some port, a US Navy intel type was told to grind his heel into the deck, and retreive whatever the substance was, and bring it back inside the groves of his shoe. Upon inspection back at spook-ville, it turns out to be a rust like compound. While I find it hard to believe, the general consensus is that the redish brown surface is actually rust. It did make a nice non-skid surface. While I don't know how one could keep that kind of corrosion under control, it's in keeping with some other things we learned from when some Soviet ships made a port call to Mayport Florida, the Sara's home port (just after or before the Gulf war). Our skipper (Capt. Drager) and other Mayport bigwigs, were invited over to the Soviet flagship, a Slava class I think, for a lunch. During the visit, our skipper asked to use the head (powder room for you civies), and was directed to a void, with holes in the floor. He was surprised to say the least at what in the west would have been a simple procedure, turned out to be a test of his accuracy and timing. Thank God the ship was in port. It turns out that habitability is definately not a prime concern for the then Soviet naval warship designers. Our ship's doctor also got a tour with the Soviet head medical guy, and was told how desease and sickness from this poor hygine was common on board. For what it's worth. I hadn't thought of these things until the question of the deck color was asked. Go figure. Steve Jantscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "O'Connor" Subject: Salute Thank you for the bio and obituary on Air Vice Marshal J. E. Johnson. He was a true hero and is truly the last of a line of heroes who saved the world for all of us. His sacrifices are not forgotten by us. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Lawman555@aol.com Subject: Sea Classic responders Shane; I just wanted to take a moment to thank all who responded to my search for the Sea Classic magazine article. I really appreciated all of the respondents and their help. I hope that I can recipricate (excuse my spelling) sometime down the road. Again, many thanks Jim Myers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Minisubs Attack Sydney The presence of a number of Japanese two-man minisubs during the attack on Pearl Harbor, Oahu, 7 December 1941 is well known; probably far less known is their attack on ships in Syndey Harbour, 31 May-1 June 1942. The story appears in "Hitting Home: The Japanese Attack on Sydney 1942" by David Jenkins and Peter Sullivan, Random House Australia 1992 (ISBN 0-09-182668-3). Fascinating tale! MWL Hi Mike, Yes, it's a very good book. Another book which fwiw, I recommend. It may also be still be available from the AWM. However, the attack in Sydney Harbour, in which the ferry Kuttabul (HMAS Kuttabul is named after her) was sunk is pretty well known here ;-). The AWM & HMA Dockyard Garden Is have the remains of some of the minisubs that took part. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: JiffyJethro@aol.com Subject: Pearl Harbor Mystery Ship For those of you that have the book "East Wind Rain", turn to page 107. There you will see a picture of the southeast loch during the early stages of the attack. Inside the loch you'll see the submarine base, and then, to the right of the sub base is the U.S.S. Pelias. Every map, drawing or other piece of reference material I have ever seen has listed only the Pelias to be in this portion of the loch, but if you continue to follow the shore line where the Pelias is moored to the right you will see what appears to be another ship moored at the very end of that cove. To me it appears to be about a destroyer sized ship, complete with sun awnings. Am I loosing my mind, or is that truely another ship, if so does anyone know what ship it is? If this is a ship, how in the world could it be overlooked?? Jeff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Michael J. D'Silva" Subject: Re: Titanic plans Hi Keith, Check out the Titanic Research and Modelling Association at: www.titanic-model.com The best plans available are by Robert Hahn, and they are available in four versions - 1/100, 1/144, 1/192 and 1/350. If you are interested in scratchbuilding the Titanic, then I think you'll need either the 1/100, 1/144 or 1/192 scale plans, depending on what size suits your needs. The 1/350 scale plans are on a single sheet and do not include the frames/bulkhead information. It's mainly for superdetailing Minicraft's 1/350 Titanic kit. More details are available at the website, so good luck in your quest... Michael J. D'Silva -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: "Bob Pearson" Subject: Phlox of Lotuses (or is that Loti?) Greetings all, Looking at the completion dates for the two Flowers named Lotus we have Lotus (i) 23 May 1942 Lotus (ii) 9 May 1942 (ex Phlox) The first one was transferred to France and became the Commandant D'Estienne D'Orves, and the second one was then renamed Lotus from Phlox. How soon after transfer was this, and when was the transfer? Did both serve under the name Lotus? Did Phlox serve under Phlox or were the transfers done before completion? Regards, Bob Pearson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Looking to trade or buy I'm looking for 1/542 F/A-18s if anybody has any left over from building a modernized Revell Forrestal. I have F-4s and other, older planes of the same scale to trade if desired. TIA, Steve Allen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: CokerRE@aol.com Subject: For sale I have the following items for sale Ship Plans French Navy Richelieu 1940 from Musee1/100 $40.00 Jean Bart 1955 from Musee 1/300 $30 Charlemagne 1900 1/200 $ 25.00 Georges Leygues 1950 1/200 $25 Jeanne d'Arc train cruiser 1935 1/200 $20.00 Foch carrier 1970 1/150 $30 helo cruiser 1961 1/200 20.00 cruiser 1935 plan & profile 30 Suffren, cruiser 1934 plan & profile1/200 30.00 Clemenceau 1962 Colbert 1934 1/200 30.00 Arromanches carrier 1954 Musee 1/300 $25 Algerie 1935 1/200 35.00 Lansquenet frigate 1949 1/100 $20 1/200 20.00 Subchaser 123 1947 1/50 $20 Marcel Bayard cable layer 1962 1/150 10.00 Esso Paretis tanker 1958 1/200 Plans from French Naval Archives Algerie 1935 includes detail sketches 1/100 $100.00 Colbert 1930 1/100 $75.00 Foch 1931 1/100 75.00 Suffern 1932 1/100 75.00 La Marseillies 1936 1/100 80.00 please reply off-list to PC Coker at cokerre@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume