Subject: SMML VOL 1150 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:10:42 -0800 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Ship Salvage 2: Re: Ship names 3: Industrial Hygiene 4: Re: HMS Rodney 1928 colour scheme 5: TV Alert for the US 6: Re: Heller 1/400 Arromanches 7: Re: Ship names 8: hand cleaning 9: Re: Gambier Bay 10: Rodney as built 11: Re: Cabot 12: Re: Ship names 13: Royal Navy Able Seaman dog Trivia 14: Rodney & Ark Royal's colours 15: waterline conversion 16: Re: Saving of MIDWAY, RANGER, FORRESTAL..... 17: HMS AJAX - ANCHOR CHAINS & DECK COLOUR QUESTIONS 18: Russian Ships 19: MINSK World! 20: Royal Navy Interior Colours 21: Re: Nor'west/BC SMML Con 22: Re: IJN Hiryu question 23: Re: IJN Hiryu Questions 24: Re: Like them big? 25: Camouflage colors for U.S. WW1 DDs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: HMS RODNEY 1928 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: Ship Salvage Hi; Oh to have a working time machine! Go back and save the OREGON!!! Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Craig R Bennett Subject: Re: Ship names Hi Mike The following are the countries prefixes before their ship names USCGC - United States Coast Guard Cutter USNS - United States Naval Ship(usally civilian run auxillary) HMCS - Her Majesty Canadian Ship HMAS - Her Majesty Australian Ship HMNZS - Her Majesty New Zealand Ship SNS - Spanish Naval Ship FNS - French Naval Ship FGS - Federal German Ship(old West Germany and current reunited Germany) INS - Indian Naval Ship RMS - Royal Mail Ship(UK owned commercial vessels like ocean liners -Titanic) RFA - Royal Fleet Auxiliary (Royal Navy version of USNS ) NOAA - National Oceanic and Atmosphere(USA-research ships) Well this what I have to share. Now I got a question. Why is it that a statue mile (5280 ft) is shorter than a nautical mile (6080 ft) by 800 ft? Any one know? Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "James Kloek" Subject: Industrial Hygiene I've been following the safety thread for the last couple of days. We should all be aware of what we are working with and take appropriate precautions. By the same token, we don't have to scare each other, or lull each other into a false sense of security. Here are a couple of two cents worth. There have been several recommendations to use latex gloves like physicians use. While these are better than bare skin, they are mainly intended for protection from water based substances. They are pretty useless for organic solvent based materials, most of them will go right through them. To really get good protection from organics, you need some heavy duty nitrile based gloves, which are too bulky to use in modeling. So, I wear the gloves when I airbrush, they will definitely afford some protection from the nearly dry paint mist that will land on them, but I do not expect them to protect me from direct contact with liquid solvents. Most of the organic solvents we will be exposed to have been used for years by the chemical manufacturing industry. There are any number of laboratory toxicology studies available on them, plus in many cases, epidemiological studies on the workers in the plant. Most of the documented cases of chronic human toxicity (as opposed to rat toxicity) arise from long term occupational exposure to relatively high levels of these materials. So if I am airbrushing solvent based materials every day, I need to react differently than if I am doing it twice a year. Always err on the side of caution. There are Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) available on most of these things, probably cruising the OSHA or EPA websites will put you on the track of them. They will give the facts as to the toxicity ratings, and recommend personal protective equipment. If you work for a company that routinely handles these materials, either in manufacturing or R&D, your own Industrial Hygiene staff will give you good information and advice too. Finally, these materials do vary in their toxicity. Things like xylene and MEK are different from acetone and isopropanol. Acetone is fingernail polish remover, and has been applied to people's skin for years. So has isopropanol (or isopropyl alcohol, common rubbing alcohol). While obviously you do not want to get overwhelmed by vapors, or ignore their fire hazards, getting a little of these two materials on your skin occasionally is not great cause for alarm. Some paint thinners are a different story. So the bottom line here is to educate yourself. Read the labels, know what is in these materials. Get out on the internet and find reliable, and I emphasize reliable, information about their hazards and how to protect yourself from them. Go to Government websites. Then look at your use frequency and patterns, and make your own choices. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: HMS Rodney 1928 colour scheme The light grey referred to in the kit was probably 507C in use in the early twenties. A good approximation is a mix using HUMBROL paints 2 parts #64 Light Grey with 3 parts #34 White. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Stuart Batchelor" Subject: TV Alert for the US After the recent thread about celebrity veterans, I saw a promo on the History Chanel this morning for a show Sunday night here in the states honoring celebrity veterans. I don't know all the details, but it appears interesting. If you are interested, check your local TV listings. Stuart -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Ken Summa Subject: Re: Heller 1/400 Arromanches John, Unfortunately, the Heller 1/400 Arromanches is a very rare kit. The last time I saw one on for sale on Ebay was about a month ago and the going price was approaching $100. You might try to contact Pacific Front Hobbies or keep an eye on Ebay. There are a few other internet modeling sites but I have never seen it listed there. Good Luck, Ken Summa -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: corlasvan@webtv.net (Case Van Hoboken) Subject: Re: Ship names Michael, I can answer your question as far s the Dutch Navy goes. They use : " Hr.Ms." ,or sometimes only " H.M." This stands for :" Harer Majesteits ", in the Dutch language; in English that would translate to: " Her Majesties' ". Don't know about the others...... Case -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Ken Goldman" Subject: hand cleaning A great, non-toxic hand cleaner is simply mineral oil, or baby oil (no, they don't render down babies to make it - I just knew one of you wags out there would comment). It cuts right through dried paint on your hands. Rub a little on your hands, then add soap and water. A nail brush helps to remove stubborn stains. (Did I just feed someone another straight line?) Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER unique wood sculpture and fine scale models www.walruscarpenter.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Ken Goldman" Subject: Re: Gambier Bay >> It had lots of very nice metal parts for the smaller stuff like chocks, deck wenches and hatches so you don't have to build all those little pieces. << I see Rusty is trying to find out if we really read his posts - or is this another reference to Caroline in her bikini? Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER unique wood sculpture and fine scale models www.walruscarpenter.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Rodney as built Hi Richard As completed Rodney was in AP507B medium grey with the wooden decks in teak and the steel decks in 507A dark grey. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: Re: Cabot >> and if you'd rather bet on a sure thing, museums already in operation could use your help as well: Hornet, Yorktown, Lexington, Intrepid. << Larry, can I borrow your soap box? Ahem, I detect a little bias on Shirley's part. I am sure that she means well but there are a whole lot of museum ships and ship museums other than those floating bird farms. (pun definitly intended). I would like to invite smmlies that may be inclined to "help" a museum ship to look over the web site for the Historic Naval Ships Association (www.hnsa.org). Nearly all Naval and Maritime museums that have vessels are in some way affiliated with HNSA. At last count, HNSA has 80 Fleet members with 126 vessels. That's quite a lot of ships to chose from. Help can be anything from working as a volunteer for a couple hours a month to joining the museum as a patron or member. All fleet members welcome all the help they can get. (Now its my turn Shirley) How about the Salem? We may be a little more laid back than a large corporate entity but we got us a really great ship too. Salem is the last all gun heavy cruiser acquired by the USN. Currently the only CA in a museum anywhere. And, do we like "help". Those attending SmmlCon 2000 will back me up when I say, working on the Salem is modeling on a 1/1 scale. But, we still make room for those exquisite small scales as well. Wanna "help" a ship museum? Would you like to put one or more models of yours someplace where others can appreciate them? Contact me and lets discuss it. Several Smmlies already have models on display and we would like more. Some models have even graced the pages of magazines like FSM and many web sites. Don't be bashful send me e-mail. (preference given to Flower Class Corvettes). Donations or loans, your choice. Oh and Rusty, we got several large deck "wenches" on board, if you're interested i'll introduce you 8>) (sorry,couldn't resist) John Frohock/ ca139johnf@aol.com Curator/Model Collection Exhibit Designer US Naval Shipbuilding Museum USS Salem Model Dept. Quincy Massachusetts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Ship names >> Gentlemen could someone tell me what was used before French, Soviet, Dutch, and Imperial Russian warship names, i.e. the United States uses USS, great Britain uses HMS etc. << From what I have gathered French ships are prefaced with MN (Militare Navale or Maritime Nationale ... I have heard both terms used) Soviet ships were simply prefaced with the ship type: PLARB was the abbreviation for SSBN - Podvadnaya Lodka Atomnya Raketnaya Ballisticheskaya PLARK for SSGN PLA for SSN PL for diesels TAK for their remaining carrier - Tyazholiy Avionosnyy Kreyser - Tacitcal Aviation Cruiser ARK for the Kirov BCGN - Atomnaya Raketnaya Kreyser Israel simply uses INS Israeli Naval Ship as they are required to speak English as well as Hebrew. and so forth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Tony Ireland" Subject: Royal Navy Able Seaman dog Trivia While stopping a Tonkinese (Siamese/Burmese cross) cat walking across this keyboard, I'm reminded of a large dog that was conscripted into the Royal Navy during WW2, given the rank of Temporary Acting Able Seaman, issued with a Pay Book, and instructed how to perform an important task - for which many matelots remember him with gratitude and affection. Where, why, how, did he serve? His name? Cheers, Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "M & R Brown" Subject: Rodney & Ark Royal's colours Rodney: My books show her in 1928 & 1929 in Portsmouth with a dark looking paint. As she was only just then completed and had teething troubles especially with her turret rollers, I would guess that she stayed attached to the Home Fleet until they were resolved. If she was serving in the Home Fleet then she would have been AP507A which from memory Humbrol 67 is a rough match. If she was Med Fleet she would have been AP507C Light Grey. Best bet is to wait for White Ensign's paint though. Ark Royal: The hull could have been one of two colours. In 1947, A.F.O. 2249/47 Painting of Weather Work on H.M. Ships in time of Peace was issued which laid down Light Grey (good old 507C again) as the fleet colour. By 1960, Light Admiralty Grey (LAG) was used. But when 507C was discontinued and LAG commenced I can't find out and neither can anyone in the Navy tell me!!! LAG is available from a model paint company in Australia (contact me if you want the details). Per an old article on the RN, the Ark's landing area was matt black and the rest of the deck Dark Admiralty Grey (BS381C 632 > Humbrol 5). Spot markings white, centreline markings Flame Orange, servicing points middle blue (BS381C 109), Avcat positions Golden Brown (BS381C 414), Fire Points signal red (BS381C 537), Barrier areas striped in black & yellow, jet blast deflectors, white & red. Michael Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Fred Kennamer Subject: waterline conversion Folks, Does anybody have a clever trick to keep hulls from warping along the waterline when cutting down an injection full-hull kit? As a heretic, I prefer displaying kits as waterline, without any form of base. To complicate the problem, I like larger scale subjects. When cutting down the injection hull, the only way I've found to avoid warping along the lower horizontal is by gluing a piece of .1" (approximately 3 mm for those of you with a non-antiquated standard) styrene to the bottom and then reinforcing this inside the hull with a much thicker sheet running the length of the hull. Reinforcing with plastic I-beam pieces running lengthwise doesn't seem to work very well, and also allows the bottom piece to "cup" so it's bowed out when looking down the length, thus giving the waterline a gap all the way. Polyurethane resin poured inside the hull doesn't work; this causes the hull to warp along the horizontal. In all of these experiments I've been working on solid glass, so there's a true planar surface from which to build. The longer the subject, the thicker the reinforcing sheet needs to be. I'm working on an almost 2-foot long model (Heller's Illustrious) that has me stymied now to the point that I guess I'm going to need to reinforce with a solid sheet about 6mm thick or more. I would also be getting into problems fitting this around the indentations for the lower galleries, and just don't look forward to intricately cutting a big ol' honkin' slab of styrene that I may have to even laminate in the first place, not to mention find. Needless to say, I'd like to avoid these extreme joys. Has anyone tried plaster or some other ceramic-like substance inside the hull on top of the bottom piece that, once set up, won't warp? Maybe there's a better substance that can eliminate the need for a bottom piece altogether. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance, Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: stillmo@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: Saving of MIDWAY, RANGER, FORRESTAL..... I have heard that there has been a snag regarding aquiring of MIDWAY to San Diego....the waterfront commission has indicated that the large CVA would cause 'blockage of view', or interrupting the harborfront view of the embarcadero area, and that the large pier which formerly supported the Navy Supply Center building would have better use other than a parking lot. MIDWAY is big, but she had a lower freeboard than all the other CVAs, and the money she would bring into the area--tourist dollars from ship admissions and parking could pay for plenty of other projects or self support. Don't count on a FORRESTAL class to be saved, in my opinion. They are huge ships requiring huge manhours and continuous dedicated support to keep them from falling into disrepair. Maintenance and hull upkeep alone would be financially draining. RANGER is currently in Bremerton as is MIDWAY. With Everett slated for closure, is there a plan to put RANGER there???? Infrastructural support and bags of money up front are needed, and these big ships will have to host dog and pony shows to pay their rents. Great in theory, these plans, but rarely in practice. San Francisco will get the IOWA and they certainly will not need another museum ship after that, with HORNET just across the bay. SEATTLE TACOMA for a big CVA? Hmmmm. Just some thoughts would like some feedback on this. RD Bean -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Steven Bennell" Subject: HMS AJAX - ANCHOR CHAINS & DECK COLOUR QUESTIONS Hi SMMLies, I'm currently working on Airfix's 1:600 scale HMS Ajax (lots of filler and sanding!!). My intention is to complete her (including the use of WEM brass) as she was at the Battle of the River Plate, i.e., light gray 507c. My first question is, what was the RN's practice with regard to visible anchor chain? I thought I would paint the fo'castle steel decks with Humbrol 87 (any thoughts on that choice?). Would I be correct in assuming that the visible chains would be the same colour, only rather more rusty? Second question. The kit parts that represent the decks of the deckhouses underneath B and X turrets are engraved to represent timber planks. Is that correct, or were they actually steel decks? Happy modeling Steve Bennell Wiltshire England -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "John Rule" Subject: Russian Ships >> For the Krivak, my version came with only one model. It's well detailed, but I'm hoping for some PE producer to create radars, masts and other equipment for this ship, along with the Sovremenny and Udaloy. (One set for all three would sell very well, I'd venture.) The Kuznetsov is impressive, and builds up nicely. I had some fit problems with the flight deck, but nothing serious. There is no PE kit, though the many radars, crane, and deck-edge netting cry out for a set, and you can do a great deal of detailing with the proper references. << To the best of my knowledge, Gold Medal Models did produce a photoetch set for the Russian warships. I would think it is still available. Sincerely, John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Darren Scannell Subject: MINSK World! Don't know how many of you have seen pictures of this, but I thought I'd share. This is what China does with old Soviet ships! http://198.190.228.6/minsk/minsk.html Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "nickbalmer" Subject: Royal Navy Interior Colours Hello, Does anybody know what colour the interior walls and floors were painted in Royal Navy Ships in the period from 1914 to 1939? Regards Nick Balmer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Re: Nor'west/BC SMML Con Very good idea to have a get together for modelers in the Western area. Count me in. Do you guys know if that little pub is still operating down the street from Fine Scale Models in North Van? As I recall it was on East First Street. They served good beer, sandwhiches and chips and the atmosphere is very much in keeping with the maritime nature of the community. In any event, it would be nice to meet other SMML members in the greater Vancouver area and Pacific Northwest. Victor Baca Model Ship Journal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: IJN Hiryu question Mike, On the subject of the Hiryu, Pacific Front Hobbies has photo etched flight decks for sale of many of the IJN carriers of WWII, so you might want to give him a call (541)464-8579. I have seen one of these, and the detail is much better than the kit plastic ones. The areas of wood or steel are very easy to find. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Dboykap@aol.com Subject: Re: IJN Hiryu Questions Mike: The flight deck depicted in steel fore and aft of the wooden portion is essentially correct, excepting the very aft end of the flight deck, after the turndown, approximately 1/8" wide and the width of the turndown/flight deck. For some reason this was molded on as a flight deck extension instead of flight deck netting. You need to remove this piece and replace it with some PE netting. Almost all the IJN carriers had wood planking running fore and aft, not side by side as with US carriers. The Aoshima Hiryu is a decent enough model, the basic shapes are right, but it could really benefit from a lot of detail work. HTH, Dan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Chuck Messer" Subject: Re: Like them big? >> It had lots of very nice metal parts for the smaller stuff like chocks, deck wenches and hatches so you don't have to build all those little pieces. << Rusty, Let's hear more about those deck wenches! ;^) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: PT Dockyard Subject: Camouflage colors for U.S. WW1 DDs Hi! I am casting up some 1/1200 "Sampson" Class US DDs and want to know if anyone has a reference for the colors used in the dazzle schemes employed on USN destroyers sent to Europe in the First World War? The black and white shots I have look like just that- black, medium grey and very light grey. I recall, however, seeing a reproduction of a recuiting poster from that era that showed a destroyer in a striking greyish red/medium blue scheme. Any color reference on WW1 camouflage would be helpful while we are at it. Thanks, Dave Gregory -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: HMS RODNEY 1928 That light grey should be the ubiquitous AP 507C, a chip of which is included in our Royal Navy Set 1. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume