Subject: SMML VOL 1159 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:26:41 -0800 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Once more into the (Flight Deck) breech, dear friends! 2: Tamiya 1/350 Enterprise kit 3: Re: Submarine Periscope Detection 4: Re: Oregon Air vents 5: Mk 15 Trainable Hedgehog 6: Re: Oregon Air vents 7: Anorak 8: "Vorpostenboot" plans 9: Re: Wood for ship display 10: Laid back Norwegians and CVN-65 hangar deck 11: American DDs at Normandy 12: DMS fourstacker 13: Shopping around 14: Re: Flight deck crown 15: Re: Essex 16: Re: USS Laffey 17: Re: Shape of the Earth / Great Little Ships 18: RN Camouflage Vol. 2 Update 19: Re: TASHKENT 20: Re: Submarine Periscope Detection 21: More Bad Press for Carrier Charles de Gaulle 22: Akagi 23: Re: Weathering steel decks at 1/700 24: Wood bases -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: IPMS(USA) Nats - Chicago news -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Wood for display stand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Once more into the (Flight Deck) breech, dear friends! From: Chris Rogers >> yes I would agree you didnt build enough of them but I would have thought you would have at least learnt something of the brits and put an amour deck on them thats all coz you lost a few of them in that era of conflict either by suicide or torpedo. . . . << No Essex was lost in action or otherwise. Several were damaged, some severely, but none was lost (not that an amored flight deack would have been much help against torpedo attack). Steve Allen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Edward Wilson" Subject: Tamiya 1/350 Enterprise kit Phill- The tamiya Enterprise represents the ship as she appeared from Dec., 1982 when she emerged from a 3 year rebuilding at Puget Sound until Sep., 1986. At that time the CIWS mounting areas were completly rebuilt to enlarge ammunition storage, and chaff lanchers added at all four quarters. The chaff would be an easy modification, but rebuilding the CIWS is much more involved. If you have Duane Fowlers decals for this kit, the ships name on the front of the island wast painted on in Aug, 1985 for the 40th anniversary of VJ day. The large "Big E" on the back of the island wasn't painted on until the spring of 1987, so don't use that marking. As to the Airwing, DON'T use any F-18's, Enterprise didn't carry any F-18's until she emerged from refueling in 1995, which requires much more extensive changes to the kit. She was the last carrier to get F-18's. All markings should be Lo-Viz, except squadron CO's, use the GMM decals for CVW-11, the airwing onboard at the time. One other point, the liferaft canasters were haze-gray, NEVER white. Hope this helps, Ned Wilson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Re: Submarine Periscope Detection >> In the mid-1940s tests were done to detect the distance at which a submarine's periscope could be detected. A mast 32 feet high with radar on it could read up to 150 miles. After that point the reading disappeared due to the curvature of the earth. << >> Hmmmmmm! This work must have been done by the same research facility that gave the USN their infamous 'non-exploding' torpedo warheads! Anyone who has ever stood a bridge watch knows perfectly well that a radar sited at 32 feet above water level wouldn't detect the Statue of Liberty at 150 miles, let alone the periscope of a submerged submarine. In the 60's I was the navigator of a DE.....I still remember that my height of eye on the bridge wing was 42' and that my visible horizon was approximately 15 miles. Our SPS-10 surface search radar, which was sited much higher and which represented much better technology than anything available in WWII, was doing well to detect a supercarrier at 25 miles. << Yes but the most interesting performance was the WW2 Type 285 which could detect a seagull at 2000 yards. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: Oregon Air vents >> My first thought was to try and cast some thing in resin using the existing kit items as a pattern Any ideas? << That would do it just fine. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Ralph Batykefer" Subject: Mk 15 Trainable Hedgehog I've been looking for scale drawings of a Mk 15 Trainable Hedgehog. I was told that the trainable hedgehog is no different than the Mk 10 fixed hedgehog except for the rotating base, but in the Squadron USS Fletcher book they look very different. Anyone out there have the information and/or drawings? IHS, Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: GKingzett@aol.com Subject: Re: Oregon Air vents Andy Jones asked about the turret ventilators on USS Oregon. On mine, I used cast vents from Bluejacket Ship Crafters, Stockton Springs, Maine, although any hobby store which has ship parts will have them. I can't remember exactly, but I think they were either 3/16" or 1/4" dia. One of the the real fun with the Oregon is modifying the kit supplied ventilators by taking off that awful rectangular blob under each vent hood. That wasn't there in real life and it sure doesn't belong on the model. Gary -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Anorak Dear Mr Griffith, Could you please explain what is meant by the term "anorak". Does it mean that you were a closet anorakian, or that you wore an anorak in a closet? "Close encounters of the anorakian kind"? As some of the people on this list come from strange places; Mars, the New York subway, and the strangest place of all; Brooklyn, not everybody understands the meaning of the term. As an example of this, there was a running topic recently about that strange substance called vegemite/marmite; caused much confusion with those from WEST of the Hudson. We shall hold ourselfs in eager readiness. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Douglas Subject: "Vorpostenboot" plans Ever since I built and detailed the Airfix Schnellboot, I've become interested in German coastal craft - especially the "Vorpostenboote", which served in many roles during World War II. I've been able to track down some plans for such a vessel: Christian Schmidt of Munich is offering a set of plans for the German Vorpostenboot V-1102 "Luetzow" in 1:25 scale for DM99,00......this is about US$50.00, I believe. I'd love to scratchbuild this ship, but I'm not in a position right now to shell out that much for a set of plans. Does anybody out there want to go 50 -50 on them? I'll even cover the shipping. Please contact me off-list. Thanks Doug Bauer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: GKingzett@aol.com Subject: Re: Wood for ship display One of the few advantages to living in the NYC area is I get to go to Constantine's and look at their veneers. I have developed a mounting method which works quite well. I use 1/2" thick MD particle board for my bases. It is stable, doesn't warp or check. I rabbet the edge of the board about 1/4" deep X 1/4" wide and paint the rabbet and edge of particle board flat black. On top of that I laminate a piece of veneer of whatever color or pattern suits my fancy and trim it with a knife. Several coats of rubbed Polyurethane Varnish gave a flat smooth finish. I slide an acrylic cover down onto the rabbet, drill four small holes through the acrylic into the edge of the rabbet and slide in small brads to hold it. Four little stick-on felt pads at the corners keep the whole thing from scratching my wife's antique desk. When I go to a show, I whip out my trusty pliers, pull the brads, put the cover on the floor and I am legal for IPMS judging. Constantines has dozens of veneers, of all different colors and figures. I used one called purple heart to mount a warship with red anti-fouling underbody. The colors complemented each other beautifully. Rosewood, some of the figured burls, and some of the walnuts all seem to have real possibilities. They contrast very nicely with (dare I say it?) brass lamp finials. Constantine's have a mail catalog, are in the Bronx, NY and have a web site. Gary -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Laid back Norwegians and CVN-65 hangar deck >> although folk in Scandinavia at c. 60 N.Lat are loafing along at only 500 m.p.h. enjoying life in the Slow Lane. Hence the laid-back lifestyle of Norwegians who settled in Minnesota... << Well, that can explain why I just entered two models in our Nationals and didn't take any photos. Alas there were no ship models entered at all, and we are supposed to be descendants of seamen... The measurements I used for my Enterprise flight deck are in the form of coordinates - please refer to my earlier post on SMML. Draw a center line on a piece of paper and then draw lines normal to the center line spaced 50 mm apart (2 inches is 50.8 mm for you sworn to imperial units). The line at zero will butt against the fan tail deck (kit partsB7 and B40). The width of the deck at the corresponding levels are: 0 - 90.8 50 - 96.5 100 - 102.3 150 - 106.1 200 - 108.2 250 - 109.1 300 - 109.9 350 - 109.9 400 - 109.9 450 - 109.6 500 - 109.3 The hangar deck itself is 84 mm wide and 23.5 mms tall. Pitcures to come later when I get a hold of a digital camera. Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "William Oreto" Subject: American DDs at Normandy I believe Stephen Ambrose's book on Normandy gave an account of the close-in fire support and rescue efforts by American DDs at Normandy. If I'm not mistaken he stated some of the DDs came close to grounding in order to give accurate fire support. There is also Theodore Roscoe's book "Tin Cans". It provides information on those DDs and DE's that were lost at Normandy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Lump518176@aol.com Subject: DMS fourstacker While scanning an unusual book of mine, "US Army-Navy Journal of Recognition", there is a small section on Flushdeckers and their various conversions. There is a pretty good photo of a DMS stern gear (paravanes, cable reels and cranes). I picked up this book at a local bookstore's discount section for $10. It is a reprint of US wartime recognition mags. distributed to the troops. Full of unpublished photos, and incredibly inaccurate discriptions/assumptions of Axis ships/aircraft/armor! Good book! Jerry Phillips -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Rod Dauteuil" Subject: Shopping around Just to show it pays to shop around, today I was looking at a DML/Dragon CF Adams Class DD in 1/700, which was selling for $20.00. However, just below it on another shelf was the Revell Germany Guided Missile Cruiser Rommel, originally of the CF Adams class. This had a price of around $10.00. These are the same mold. The photos on each box show some differences, but that's because some parts are left off of the Rommel model, and others are left off the Adams model. But they're there on the sprue. Even the base stand and nameplate say CF Adams class, and are indistinguishable from the DML/Dragon issue. So I just saved $10.00 which I used to buy a Tamiya Fletcher and an IJN Tugboat set. So the moral is don't jump at the first thing you see. BTW, it's a very nice model. Rod. BTW, anybody know if a Gleaves class DD (DMS) is available in plastic? After seeing The Caine Mutiny for the umpteenth time I'm interested in building one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Doug Wilde" Subject: Re: Flight deck crown Thanks, Bob, for confirming that carrier decks DID have crown built into them. The question then becomes: why? What difference does 1" make over 587'6" of heaving flight deck? Doug Wilde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: Essex >> yes I would agree you didnt build enough of them but I would have thought you would have at least learnt something of the brits and put an amour deck on them thats all coz you lost a few of them in that era of conflict either by suicide or torpedo << Oh? Name one that sank. Then or later. Please don't let's get into another UK versus US carrier design practices argument. They were based on different doctrines and situations, had different strengths and weaknesses, and further just gets into opinion supported by oodles of data which in the end changes no one's mind. Allan Plumb, who in the spirit of contrariness would rather have a 1/350 Formidable than an Essex anyway P.S. In the spirit of deck wenches, what's an amour deck??? :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: raisingirl@mindspring.com Subject: Re: USS Laffey hello all.... VONJERSEY@aol.com wrote: >> by both a total of about a dozen times. Laffey survived that ordeal, and the return trip and display in Seattle. She was repaired and updated and remained in service till 1975 and I believe is now a museum ship in South Carolina. << Yes, she is. I have been aboard Laffey more times than I care to admit. Oddly enough, while the Germans and kamikazes couldn't sink her, the museum inadvertently managed to a few years ago -- she had gone for so long without maintenance (due to a lot of factors, including the museum's involvement in a land development scandal that's way off-topic that also played a role in the museum ridding itself of the NS Savannah) that her bottom rusted out and she took on a pretty serious list! Fortunately, it was before the Charleston Naval Shipyard closed, so they were able to take her over and put some new plating on her bottom. I talked with the engineers there about a year later and apparently the Navy came pretty close to shutting Patriots Point down over that whole imbroglio. Oddly enough, about ten years ago I took a trip to Charleston with a friend's family. We happened to stay at a Holiday Inn in Mount Pleasant where the Laffey reunion was taking place. While my friend and I were in the car, we saw an older, distinguished-looking gentleman driving a Mercury Cougar with license plates reading "DD-724." While I can't place money on it, I believe that was Julian Becton. Since I had bought a copy of "The Ship That Would Not Die" at the museum, we tried seeing if he was indeed staying there so that I could get my book signed, but no joy. Another almost-brush with greatness. Admiral Becton passed away a few years ago, so I'll never know if that was indeed him. (OTOH, the next year I did get to talk to the final master of the s/s United States, so my luck isn't entirely rotten....) :) jodie http://www.mindspring.com/~raisingirl/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Edd Pflum Subject: Re: Shape of the Earth / Great Little Ships With respect to the shape of the planet Earth: "Pear shaped", although an exaggeration, IS a pretty good description. The more or less spherical Earth is deformed into an oblate spheroid by the centrifugal force caused by its axial rotation. The mass of the continents (mostly in the Northern Hemisphere) causes the Southern Hemisphere to bulge out a little. Ergo, pear shaped. On another topic, I was interested in the review of the Great Little Ships update sets for the "Angiosperm" class escort vessels, but couldn't find it on the SMML site. The archive links took me to a site about "Star Wars" movies. Where have I gone wrong? Edd Pflum Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: maeisen@erols.com Subject: RN Camouflage Vol. 2 Update Folks: For RN fans out there: Spoke to WR Press earlier this evening and learned that RN Camouflage Vol. 2 (1942) has gone to the press. Printing should commence this week, and it should be available within just a few more weeks. If I remember correctly, he said it will have about 170 pieces of artwork, including about 80 admiralty disruptive schemes. Included are schemes for HMS Eagle, Illustrious, Formidable, Edinburgh, and some of the Bogue class escort carriers transfered to the UK early in the war. Also, I understand, artwork for HMAS Hobart, featuring green and black deck camouflage. No more reason for that WEM Edinburgh to be finished in dark grey (not that there's anything wrong with that), or that unfinished Skywave HMS Tracker kit to remain on the shelf cause you couldn't figure out the correct camo scheme! Yours truly, Mike Eisenstadt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: TASHKENT Hi; This Italian built ship was actually a light cruiser. He was called the "sky blue cruiser" because he was supposedly painted a light blue color. I'm not sure of the actual shade of blue. >> I have a book showing some, not a lot, of pictures but a GREAT amount of detailed drawings enough to build from, but I still would like a model before I commit to making a mold and fiberglass hulls << Author, title, etc.??? Drool! Drool! Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "George Hackett" Subject: Re: Submarine Periscope Detection Hi Joel, After I wrote: >> In the mid-1940s tests were done to detect the distance at which a submarine's periscope could be detected. A mast 32 feet high with radar on it could read up to 150 miles. After that point the reading disappeared due to the curvature of the earth. << Joel responded: >> Hmmmmmm! This work must have been done by the same research facility that gave the USN their infamous 'non-exploding' torpedo warheads! Anyone who has ever stood a bridge watch knows perfectly well that a radar sited at 32 feet above water level wouldn't detect the Statue of Liberty at 150 miles, let alone the periscope of a submerged submarine. In the 60's I was the navigator of a DE.....I still remember that my height of eye on the bridge wing was 42' and that my visible horizon was approximately 15 miles. Our SPS-10 surface search radar, which was sited much higher and which represented much better technology than anything available in WWII, was doing well to detect a supercarrier at 25 miles. << My thoughts on Tuesday, February 20, 2001: Joel, I thought that 150 mile number was a bit optimistic when I read it. If it is in print it must be true!?!!???? The time was October 1944, the ship the test's were done from was the USS Kestrell (IX 175), the man Victor Schreckengost. Check out the catalogue "Victor Schreckengost and 20th-Century Design" [ISBN 0-940717-62-X] for other interesting tidbits concerning radar recognition and topographical maps. Mr. Schreckengost is also responsible for the design of many of those great pedal cars some of us more mature SMMLies may remember built by the Murray Ohio Company. Any "Pursuit Planes" or "Speedway Pace Cars" still in your garages? My Uncle, now deceased, worked for Raytheon during WW II developing radar systems. He was great at identifying marks and mods when I would question him on infrequent occasions concerning my attempts at dating a ship's photograph. Just the kind of question that would have had him very animated! Regards to all, George Hackett (son of an amphibious man) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Ned Barnett Subject: More Bad Press for Carrier Charles de Gaulle US News & World Report 2/26/01 The gall of the de Gaulle A French aircraft carrier is beset by problems By Eduardo Cue PARIS-It was supposed to exemplify French military might and prestige in the 21st century. Instead, Europe's first nuclear-powered aircraft carrier has become a costly embarrassment. Fourteen years after construction first began and four years after it was originally scheduled to enter service, the mighty Charles de Gaulle sits immobilized in the southern French port of Toulon, a victim of numerous defects and perhaps even sabotage. Said a Navy spokesman: "We don't have any luck at all with this ship." The latest, most serious incident occurred during sea tests, when the $2.7 billion, 40,000-ton carrier began to shake badly. Divers found that a blade had broken off one of two 19-ton propellers; experts concluded that the propellers suffered from excessive metal stress due to a design meant to compensate for the fact that the ship was underpowered. As a parliamentary investigation began, a suspicious fire destroyed the computers in the offices of the company that designed the propellers. Previously, the ship suffered other difficulties, including a cooling system failure and abnormal vibrations caused by faulty rudders. Further, the flight deck had to be extended to handle the three American E-2C Hawkeye early-warning aircraft the government bought at the last minute. The Charles de Gaulle, with a crew of 1,950, was built to replace two much older carriers, the decommissioned Clemenceau and the Foch, which was sold to Brazil. Now, France is left without a single operating aircraft carrier for the first time since World War II. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Jana & Pavel" Subject: Akagi Dear SMML'ies, I am once again turning to the "Panel of Experts" in order to make up the shortfall in my knowledge. Could someone please tell me how extensively was the hull of the Akagi Aircraft Carrier modified? I wish to "Retro fit" back to a Battle Cruiser. All that concerns me would be the hull up to the deck level of a Battle Cruiser. I am thinking of using the 1/700 scale Hasagawa model. Thank you all. Regards Pavel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "David Griffith" Subject: Re: Weathering steel decks at 1/700 Dear Felipe Here's a couple of ideas for deck weathering. 1. A wash with artist's oils. A mixture of black and burnt umber for oil and grime or burnt sienna or similar for rust. Thin down till very dilute with white spirit and slop it on, especially into corners and crevices. Before it's dried lift off most of it with a damp brush or lint free cloth. You can probably take off more later as takes just a little while to dry. This will be safe over acrylics and can also be used over enamels provided they are fully dry and you work fast and gently to stop the paint softening. 2. Powdered pastel chalks, Conte or Rowney. Powdered and applied dry they are hard to handle and grip tenaciously, but they can be easier to use if you mix them into a thin suspension in a liquid. Isopropyl alcohol (windscreen de-icer spray) or white spirit can be used, but not water as the high surface tension causes tide-marks. Apply as above and remove the excess quickly, especially if alcohol used as it evaporates very fast. WARNING. Be careful if you are applying this over acrylics. Alcohol will lift some types of acrylic, Tamiya and Lifecolor and maybe others, so white spirit would be better there. Aeromaster (of blessed memory) is safe with alcohol though. Enamels will be safe with alcohol but be quick with white spirit. Whichever you choose, don't forget to dry brush afterwards to lift the detail. Regards, David Griffith. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Mike C" Subject: Wood bases I can be a lazy ba..., uh, barnacle (yeah, that's it!), so I don't bother to hollow out solid wood bases to make them sit flat. I found some packages of Velcro, pre-cut in circles with self-adhesive mounting surfaces. We used the loops for a project at work, but still had the felt side left over. They make great corner pads for bases and protect shelves or other furniture from scratches. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: IPMS(USA) Nats - Chicago news Hello SMMLies: I'm forwarding to you the response I've received from Joe Schock, the Chairman of the IPMS 2001 Convention in Chigago. I wrote Joe asking for some logistic-type information on the tour of the U-505 that was offered as part of the convention's events package. I wrote that I'd share the information with the List. Joe responded : >> Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Unfortunatly I have some bad news for you. Our planned tour to the U-505 has been cancelled. After a long bout with the Museum, they just were not willing to work with us on this tour. Our original hopes were to be able to enter the front and rear torpedo rooms as well as to go outside and view the sub a little closer. This however they will not let us do. The prices that we were working with were just to high to charge our guests just to walk through the sub and not be able to see any other attractions at the Museum and it would be much cheaper for everyone to see it on their own. The U-505 can still be viewed as a self guided tour to the Museum. The Chicago rapid transit station is 1 block from the Hyatt and can be used to get to the Museum for under $20.00(transportation and admission). It takes about 1 hour to get to the Museum by rail and bus from the Hyatt. << I also wrote asking for the name of a point-of-contact that we might schedule space for the third annual SMMLie get together at the IPMS Nats. >> As far as a meeting room, We are very tight on space at this time and I'm fighting another event going on at the same time as ours. If you could tell me the ammount of people you are expecting (hopefully under 50) for your meeting I will try to accomodate you on this. With all the seminars we have going on and if I can get a few more meeting rooms added to our event, I shouldn't have any problems with this. Thanks for your support and if you have any other questions, please contact me any time. All the Best, Joseph Schock Chairman 2001 National Convention << Two years ago in Orlando there were a dozen of us that gathered at lunch - overlooking the hotel pool and the scenery that provided. Last year, the potential for the scenery changed as did our location. There was about 20 of us in one of the seminar rooms. I was able to schedule the room because I was working seminars for the convention. Other SIGs also requested meeting space from me - and I worked to fit them in - on a first come first served/space available basis. I'm sure that the same is happening in Chicago too. What is the pleasure of the List? Do we want a meeting room or do we want to gather informally. I'll try to gather the consensus opinion and get back in touch with Joe I know that the show is 4 months off - but if we want some space, trust me, we need to be on the calendar. Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Wood for display stand Please check out the display cases I sell, which can be viewed on my web site. They are the nicest manufactured cases I have ever seen, which is why I chose to sell them. The base is a real nice oak, with a rolled optical grade acrylic top. Very high quality. If you like them, please follow the ordering instructions on that particular page. Thanks Steve Wiper @ www.classicwarships.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume