Subject: SMML VOL 1205 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:02:05 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Disguised Warship 2: Re: DKM Destroyers 3: Re: LCI 4: Re: LCI 5: Re: Fletchers in MS21 6: Fletchers in MS21 7: Re: MIKASA 8: Re: Viking Subs 9: National Stereotyping 10: Re: DKM Destroyers 11: Re: Paper "Mikasa" 12: CSS Hunley 13: Re: Greenville Surface Ship incident... 14: Hull Plates 15: Aber photo etch 16: Re: DD 445 Fletcher camo 17: GREENVILLE & Viking Models 18: Re: Terminology and Design Procedure 19: Re: 1/700 AJAX ETCH FROM WEM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: 1:700 Fantasque kit -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Hi all, Over the past few nights we've had some lively debate on certain topics, however I now feel it's time to close off certain topics within these threads. So please no more posts on Lindburgh, Reagan, apologies, etc and since Ray has apologised (see below) can we stop posts based on his comments as well. So, to those who have posted on the above topics today, my apologies, but they won't be run. Lets get back to ship modelling with all it's many facets & leave the politics for another day, when it may be warranted. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bill Rowe Subject: Disguised Warship From THE DAILY PROGRESS, Charlotessville, VA, "Historian try to preserve U.S. Naval vessel in flower mill" Hum, either a big mill race or a very small ship. Or are they going to shake, bake, and mouthball? The real story was that timbers from the USS Chesapeake were used in a mill in Wickham, a village near Portsmouth, England. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "jmsr1990.in" Subject: Re: DKM Destroyers Hi roy, thanks for the info. It is very hard for me to distinguish between verying shades of colors, especially in black and white photos, because i am about as color blind as you can get. The Kreigsmarine did not put any camo on their destroyers at this stage of the war like they did to their capital ships(Bismark, Prince Eugen, Sheer)? Would you mind giving me the names of those referances? I am always trying to pick up new material when i can find it, and it sounds like you might have some good titles to try and track down. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Dave Judy Subject: Re: LCI John, Check Commander Models website......They have 1/350 LCI, LSM in resin. There is a link on this site's home page. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: LCI >> Has anyone ever made a kit of an LCI? Can't seem to locate one on Rajendra's list. << Yup. Lindberg. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Roger/Sharon Torgeson" Subject: Re: Fletchers in MS21 >> I'm starting to work on my Tamiya 1/350 Fletcher and am trying to find out if any of these early Fletchers ever carried the Measure 21 Navy Blue System camouflage? There are plenty of later, square bridge Fletchers that had it, but I can't seem to find any references to the round bridge types << Rod, Doing a quick look at my Fletcher photos I found three round bridge ships in measure 21. They could be built right from the Tamiya kit. None have the additional 40mm added by the bridge or next to the aft. stack. If I have a date for the photo it's shown. USS Strong DD-467, USS Hutchins DD-476 1/24/43, and USS Thatcher DD-514 4/19/43. I hope this is of some help. Roger -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Rod Dauteuil" Subject: Fletchers in MS21 Thanks to all who answered my query, and for the info on the John Sheridan/Snyder and Short web page on the Navy Blue camouflage. I didn't realize so many Fletchers were painted in that scheme. Now the rest is easy! Rod. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Roger/Sharon Torgeson" Subject: Re: MIKASA >> So there is a 1:400? paper MIKASA to go with my imitation Heller POTEMKIN? Are these paper ships very hard to do? Yes, I know POTEMKIN didn't get to Tsushima. But the 2 ships are at least contemporary. << There was another Mikasa available a long long time ago (25 years plus) in 1/300 scale. It was cast metal, with the hull painted medium gray and red, 2 piece wood main deck, and everything above the main deck being brass plated metal. With the interest shown in Mikasa over the last few days I went out to the garage, cleaned off 20 years worth of dust and had a good look at the kit again. It looks like it could be a fun build, though I don't think I have a shelf or display case strong enough to hold it, the thing weighs a ton. Bill Gruner at Pacific Front Hobbies once told me the name of the company that manufactured the kit a few years ago but I didn't write it down. If I remember right it cost $75.00 then, I hate to think of what it would go for today. Buying a kit by the pound doesn't sound very good. Roger Torgeson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Roger/Sharon Torgeson" Subject: Re: Viking Subs >> No secret, I AM a sub nut. However, as much as I might like to have several of the subjects of the kits Viking put out before their demise, I find their treatment of Rusty unconscionable. Their lack of good faith in dealing with a small supplier (Flagship Models) places them firmly on my "No Buy" list. << Tom, I have to agree with you, though in this case I could have some second thoughts. The fact that Viking has gone out of business, and by doing so saved a lot of us from being taken is on the plus side. The only one I see being hurt now is the shop owner who has already paid for the kits and now can't sell them. It's a tough decision to make. I am glad I didn't have to make it. Roger Torgeson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Joel Labow Subject: National Stereotyping >> For a litigious nation, the USA nationals on this list seem extremely unaware of the law of the sea. << For a second-tier european country which seems desperate to cling to it's "special relationship" to the USA, the British nationals on this list seem remarkably prone to deliver pompous lectures to us colonials at the drop of a hat! There now.....I've gotten it out of my system too. Let's refrain from egregious stereotyping, please. Well spoken Joel, couldn't agree more. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Jeffon10@cs.com Subject: Re: DKM Destroyers I'd like to echo the question on WW II German destroyer colors and add what color were the decks or underhull colors? I've bought several books and models of Z Class and T Class and get only inconsistent advise on these colors. It would appear that in the mid-latitudes German warships used a lineoleum (red? brown?) on areas frequented by the crew. In the Artic such would have not lasted long given the methods used to remove ice. Thanks, Jeff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Paper "Mikasa" Hi Chuck, Yes JSC released paper "Mikasa" in 1/400 scale as no.17 in their range.It can be ordered (among other places) from Marcle Models at: www.marcle.co.uk Having said that,let me tell you that JSC model is very inaccurate and I for one concider it "semiscale" at the best. I have partial (plan view) Japanese plans of "Mikasa" and also Seals Models kit and IMO the paper model is just not worth the effort. I bought it as a possible base for scratch building, but had to aboandon the project after inaccuracies become apparent.If you are interested in this period maybe you should think about switching scales and have a look at "Modelkrak" 1/700 inexpensive and very nice range of resin ships from Russo-Japanese war. Regards D.P. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "DUCKMAN" Subject: CSS Hunley FOR ANY OF YA'LL WHO ARE INTERESTED, HERE'S THE LATEST ON THE C.S.S. HUNLEY. http://www.newsd.com/go/?f=&r=sc&u=www.wcsc.com DAVID -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: stillmo@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: Greenville Surface Ship incident... Okay, okay, I WAS out of line....sorry if I offended anybody. Just a personal observation and really wasnt slamming anyone in particular, just offering an uneducated opinion....my knuckles are rapped. RD Bean -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Devin J. Poore" Subject: Hull Plates Okay, here's one I haven't see asked before. I'm looking for plans, drawings, any source that would show the lines of the hull plates as they were welded to a ship. On a boat with an overall single color, the main hull looks monotonous to me; no hatches, plumbing, etc. I want to give the impression of these lines via paint shading; much like an aircraft model with highlighted panel lines. I'm currently looking for this info on the USS JUNEAU (CL-52), USS SAN FRANCISCO (CA-38), and the USS YORKTOWN (CV-5). I've searched Squadron Signals books, Floating Drydock and Taubman plans, and anything else I can think of and can not find these lines anywhere. Of course, in most of the WWII photos, you wouldn't see these due to distance, shadows, etc. And yes, I know that even in 1/350th scale, which these models will be, these lines wouldn't be visible in "the real world". I'm just trying to add some "texture" to an otherwise bland surface. Barring finding any evidence of how these hull plate separations actually laid, does anyone know if they were the same for every ship in the class, or was the steel simply cut as needed when it was time to slap it on the ship? If I can't find actual references, I'll be stuck with doing a "best guess" to replicate the patterns. Thanks, Devin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: cwjerden Subject: Aber photo etch Howdy Folks I came across a listing for Abar photo-etch "Wheels" for ships on a web site. No scale or other discription is offered. Can anyone tell me more? I REALLY need a set of valve wheels for my 400 scale T-2 tanker. All those valves just look bare without them. Any one know of a set in 350/400 scale if not the Aber? And on the subject of T-2 Tankers... I will be doing mine as "Mission Chisum Trail" sold to service with British Patrolium post war. We have "Chisum trail days" in Fort Worth, Texas each year, hence the choice. Anyone have an Ideal how BP would have painted this ship while in her service? I have not been able to find a thing on her colors. If I can't find out anything soon I'll just have to SWAG it. On the new CV name, I like USS United States for the lead ship. We can follow up with the USS Canada then the USS Mexico... The NAFTA class! From sunny and 72f Ft Worth C.W. Jerden -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Lump518176@aol.com Subject: Re: DD 445 Fletcher camo Fletcher painted into MS-21 in Mar 1943 "somewhere" in the Solomons (probably Tulagi) ....based on photographic proof. Prior to this, she wore MS-12 revised. At the time of her repainting, she also had additional AA guns fitted. Jerry Phillips -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Mike C" Subject: GREENVILLE & Viking Models I seem to recall reading a newspaper article stating that the captain of the GREENVILLE had accepted full resposibility for the accident, admitted to cutting short the prescribed surfacing procedures, and personally apologized to the families of those lost. Did I read this wrong or has my memory failed me? I understand the main obstacles now are the cost of recovering the victims and the progression of Courts Martial. I have also read that the Japanese boat had every right to be where it was unless they were fishing at the time, in which case the 12-mile limit would have applied. Even then, it was still the sub captain's responsibility to make certain he had a clear path to the surface. Regarding Viking Models, sure, they piked Rusty and have since met their just rewards. However, the hobby shops in question are now stuck with a cursed product. If you like the subject and have a chance to inspect it to make sure it's complete (or you feel you can fix it), support your local hobby shop and take it off their hands. I know there is still an NR-1 at Brookhurst Hobbies. Viking Models will not benefit from your purchase and it will make room for more worthy products (in BH's case, mine ;-D). Just make sure the hobby shop knows to never buy another product from anyone associated with Viking. Have fun, Mike Czibovic- CAP Hi all, According to an interview in Time Magazine (dated March 21, Australian Pacific Edition) with Commander Waddle, Captain of the USS Greeneville, he has presented letters of apologies to Japanese officials to pass onto the families. In it he expressed the desire to apologise in person "when the opportunity presents itself". Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Maurice Northcott" Subject: Re: Terminology and Design Procedure Miles did an extremely interesting analysis. The only thing missing was the "human error". Not all "As Fitted" Drawings were correct and when those Drawings was modified, not all the modifications were shown and those that were shown were not necessarilly correct - this has the nett result of making our job more interesting. Regards, Maurice Northcott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Re: 1/700 AJAX ETCH FROM WEM Caroline, I think a general purpose fret would be an excellent idea. In terms of Skytrex they are quoting the Ajax kit as being 1940 and are listing a kit of the near sister Sydney in 1941 fit for release "late soon" (whatever that means - however Ajax was listed the same). This makes the Ajax kit a difficult one to comment on until someone buys one as sometime in 1940 she was fitted with a heavy catapult and Walrus aircraft and radar 279. In terms of the catapult and aircraft this brought her in line with the Australian and New Zealand Leanders which were so fitted pre-war. If the Classic Achillies is 1939 (River Plate) then she too should have the heavier catapult fit and Walrus but only single 4in guns. The Skytrex Sydney kit, when issued, should have only single 4in (she was sunk in this config) - the other Aussies had twin. In terms of "packages" the sky is the limit. At various times the Leanders carried single and twin 20mm, quad 2pdr, quad 0.5in, single, double and quad 40mm of virtually every variant (III, IIIP, V, VII and even Hazlemeyer), single and twin 4in, and 3 or 4 twin 6in (the three survivors lost X turret late war). Ajax, for example, had at least five distinct weapons fit during the war and the other survivors (Achillies, Leander and Hobart) were similar. Radar varied a lot including American on Hobart and possibly Achillies. Then again you could offer the twin funnels from Penelope for the Australian ships with a package - I'm sure the Aussies would be into that. (ummmm, sounds verrrrrrrrry interesting: Shane) Perhaps a Java Sea Perth and a late war Hobart? With the bits and pieces you have for the Arethusa kits, plus etch, plus current extras range, your Osprey, Sea Fox and Walrus kits, a whole series of upgrades could be made on a decent base kit. Perhaps you could do a deal with Steve Wiper on bulk supplies of the Achillies kit as a base? This would be a whole lot easier to alter than the metal Skytrex kits and probably more accurate than the B-Resina kit. Personally I would love to create an Orion, Neptune, late war Achillies, mid-war (Kula Gulf (battle of Kolombangara)) Leander, late war Hobart plus Sydney and Perth as sunk. The survivors had interesting post war fits too with Achillies surviving until very recent times as INS Delhi. Lets GO! Best regards John Sutherland Wellington, New Zealand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) FROM: Mike Bartel mkwb@excite.com SUBJECT: 1:700 Fantasque kit Sorry for the link problem yesterday, guys, Forgot to add .html after the words lefantasque. Try it again. If you haven't seen this model yet, it turned out really nice. Let me know what you think! Mike Bartel IHP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume