Subject: SMML VOL 1213 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:51:52 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Graf Spee paper model 2: Where to buy 1200/1250 scale models 3: J/K/N CAMOUFLAGE: POSTING PHOTOS 4: Re: Camouflage Volume 2 5: Re: Camouflage Colours 6: Re: Get a life 7: Re: Camouflage Volume 2-Langtree Responds! 8: T-2 Tanker Info 9: Re: USS ARIZONA and the Memorial 10: Re: Lord Nelson Plans 11: Paints, acrylic and others 12: Hobby Shop in Tokyo 13: Re: Request: Hull lines for HMS Lord Nelson (Pre-dreadnought) 14: LCVP: Does anyone make a detail set? 15: Re: J,K,L,M... NO MORE!!!!! 16: Thoroughbred Models 17: Re: DKM destroyers 18: Re: Lindberg Diesel Tug re-released 19: Re: Royal Navy's Type 42 Question 20: Reply to mr´s Van Deynze and Pflum 21: Re: Skytrex 22: Re: 1/400 Tamiya IJN Cruisers 23: LCM querie 24: LCU class 25: CV9 Essex 40mm layout -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: Site upload -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Classic Warships going to the printer! 2: RN Camo II books in stock 3: Lindberg Tugs at the Base -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Hi all, Re the ongoing thread on RN J, K, N DDs, UNLESS you can be civil & start discussing the merits of the thread & NOT the personalities involved (this goes to both sides of the matter), I will stop the thread. If you can't abide by this, take it to private email. Any posts which continue this thread in a manner which I feel is not suitable will not be posted. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Graf Spee paper model Anyone attempting to print this should be aware that it is designed for European standard letter size which is slightly over 11.5 inches long. Printing onto 8.5 x 11 inch stock results in parts being cut off, such as the bow. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Paul and Renee Jacobs" Subject: Where to buy 1200/1250 scale models Chuck: Go into SteelNavy.com. There you'll find 1250 SCALE. The site lists all the major dealers in the U.S. and Europe, and contains direct links to some of them. Paul Jacobs 1250 SCALE Editor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Dimi Apostolopoulos Subject: J/K/N CAMOUFLAGE: POSTING PHOTOS Folks, I have seen some of the K and N photographs that prove Chris' points. I would suggest that people reserve their judgment until his book comes out. I also suggest that people who are close to Alan (Jeff? John?) get permission from him to scan and publish the J, K and N photos of interest that he has in his collection. This could be done in a timeframe that would coincide with the release of Chris' book and thus enable people to draw their own conclusions. I also offer my help to scan Alan's photos. (I have already suggested something even more generic to Alan). Please do a favor to all people who seek to learn from and share through SMML in a constructive way and restrain yourselves from cheap talk. If we are to prove our research through a practice of "put-up or shut-up" that's fine. However, the people who are asking for it should be ready to play along under the same rules. Dimi -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Marsh Edwin Subject: Re: Camouflage Volume 2 Mr Langtree, Your response to my inquiry to provide backup to your charges of inadequacy concerning the camouflage patterns contained in Mr. Raven's book are quite revealing. Instead of proving your charges, you've decided that people outside of your circle are just too stupid to realize all the "work" you've put into your opus. You have decided that it's better to take the course of accusing your competition of complacency rather than providing proof of your statements. Furthermore, you have completely dismissed anything I may have to provide you, since I dared questioned the legitimacy of your charges. As you have stated, I am not part of the "privileged" people who you have decided to impart your wisdom upon. I guess these people also don't question any of the conclusions you derive, since then they would be deprived of your wisdom and enlightenment. As for "helping you", I guess the only help you actually want is fluffing your ego rather than honest questioning of your methods and sources. You're right that someone as superior a researcher as you are doesn't need unsolicited assistance, no matter what it may be or how helpful it could be to making you an even greater success that you already have proclaimed yourself to be. However, your assumption that I have not done any research of my own is a good example of why I questioned your statements. You have no idea as to what knowledge I may or may not have. You just dismiss it out of hand. Furthermore, you specifically state that you do not want any input from me without knowing what I may have to offer. You claim to be the "expert" on the J-K-N class of destroyer, yet show no proof of his expertise. You accuse people with far more credibility than yourself of complacency, yet show no proof of his lack thereof. If and when your book is published, I'm sure you'll claim your unmatched research will set a new standard for reference books, but for the present you are unproven with no record of accuracy or consistency. Frankly, the only consistency I've seen from you is a propensity to attack and insult others for your own aggrandizement. Finally, all the statements you've made are based on one statement, the eventual publication of your research sometime in 2002. Since you do not wish to divulge any of this material prior to publication, unless you're sure it won't be met with anything other than glowing approval, I would like to make this observation. If and when your book is published, there will be people pouring over it. Errors will be found, and hundreds of Chris Langtree's will be exposing your complacency and lack of completeness. It would be interesting to watch you squirm under this scrutiny, but releases can be delayed with the continual "discovery" of "new" information, can't they? Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Re: Camouflage Colours B30 White Lead 58 lbs Blue black paste (patt.No BBP371) 20 lbs Zinc Oxide 9 lbs Black Pigment 1/2 lb Green Pigment 1/2 lb Raw lindseed oil 11 pints White Spirits 10 pints Liquid driers 3 pints G45 White lead 50 lbs Zinc Oxide 7 lbs Blue Black Paste (Patt. No BBP371) 7 lbs Raw Lindseed Oil 11 pints White Spirits 10 pints Liquid Driers 3 pints B55 White Lead 40 lbs Zinc Oxide 47 lbs Blue Black Paste (Patt. No BBP371) 2 lbs Green Pigment 2 ounces Raw Lindseed Oil 9 pints White Spirits 11 pints Liquid driers 3 pints Blue Black Paste (dark) Pattern. No BBP370a Zinc Oxide 18 lbs Blue Pigment (Egyptian) 10 1/2 lbs Black Pigment 13 ounces Raw Lindseed oil 1 1/2 pints Blue Black Paste (light) Pattern. No BBP371 Zinc Oxide 23 lbs 2 ounces Blue Pigment (Egyptian) 3 lbs 10 ounces Lamp Black 2 3/4 ounces Raw Lindseed Oil 5/8 pint -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Re: Get a life Hi Jeff Go to the AWM website. Look at all the photos of Nepal and Norman then come back to me and say that Alan Raven has done his research. I don't care what he has done in the past I am concerned about now. Vols 1 and 2 of camouflage history are complacent and poorly researched works for the JKN class destroyers. A couple of examples from Volume 1, Kingston, Kandahar, Khartoum and Kimberley are listed as being painted in Mountbatten pink which came in late summer 1940. Those four destroyers left home waters and were serving in the Red Sea by June 1940 and were never painted in Mountbatten pink. Page 50 the illustration of Kingston, the caption states that she belongs to the 7th Flotilla whose funnel markings were two black bands. Not only did Kingston never belong to the 7th Flotilla but the markings of that particular flotilla were always two WHITE bands. You don't know what you're talking about, Alan Raven doesn't know what he's talking about - I could give you more examples but I think that this is enough. You haven't done the research neither has Alan Raven, I have. Finally you like everyone else can wait until my book comes out. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: pugs99@att.net Subject: Re: Camouflage Volume 2-Langtree Responds! Chris Langtree wrote: >> When the book comes out you will see the photographic proof as all camouflage information included in the book will be based ONLY on photographs. << Well, John Sheridan observed that it was put up or shut up time for Chris Langtree and his "LEGEND IN HIS OWN MIND" type of comments. I think, Mr Langrtree, it is time you do the latter as it appears you are using a rather weak excuse to COP OUT!!!! One would think that by proving that what you write is not simply "hot air", so to speak, you would ENHANCE your heretofore UNPROVEN credibility and also enhance sales of your forthcoming book rather than hurt it!! Only the "priviliged few" are allowed to know that you are the genius you say you are? HAAHAHAHAHA!!!! I think your credibilty is 0; that's spelled ZERO. If your book is sooooooo correct and accurate, you might want to take a lesson from Steve Wiper, Alan Raven and other folks who are only to willing to show what they know. You won't or pehaps CAN'T??? You might want to reconsider John Sheridan's offer or at least stop posting these unsubstantiated, self-righteous slams against CONTRIBUTORS to the hobby! Regards, John Impenna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Art Herrick" Subject: T-2 Tanker Info >> I would like to ask if anyone knows how the pipe work on the main decks would have been painted. Would it have been painted a deck color or a contrasting color? I have seen it both ways on different Tanker models, I'm just wondering what the BP practice was From 48' to 55'. Anyone tell me of a place on the web that may have BP specific info on their tankers? << Hi! C.W.Jerden In the early 1990s I was asked to do a model of the 1931 oil tanker ATLANTIC SUN. Knowing the deck piping was a major item I went to the Mystic Seaport Museum library. Looked up "oil tankers" in their index cards ... sure enough, found a oil tanker, deck officers manual for the 1931 time period. It even covered a sister ship, to my subject, in fair detail. It showed details of the cargo handling valves, cargo piping fittings, cargo tank hatch covers, with their vent piping, cargo piping layout drawings, etc. One thing I remember was that the cargo handling valve wheels were all color coded. A nice detail to follow through with on a tanker model. I also found a book for my 1931 time period; Design and construction of oil steamers [tankers], printed by London Lloyd's Register Printing House. I wonder if Lloyd's printed an up-dated book for your time period, 1948/1955?? It turned out the potential client did not have the money for me to build him a model!! But my basic research was fun, and I learned something new ... oil tankers. There are some great oil tanker models at the Mariners' Museum!! Their library should be a source of oil tanker info.. Art Herrick Westmoreland NH Member: Nautical Research Guild USS CONSTITUTION Model Shipwright Guild Yangtze River Patrol Assoc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Chris Preston" Subject: Re: USS ARIZONA and the Memorial Mike, An excellent set of drawings on the USS ARIZONA, as she is today, can be found in the "Submerged Cultural Resources Study, USS ARIZONA MEMORIAL,and PEARL HARBOR NATIONAL HISTORIC LANDMARK", put out by the US National Park Service. This book is available from the USS ARIZONA Memorial Museum, and features, amongst other things, a set of line drawings with profile and overhead views of the ARIZONA, as she sits on the bottom. The drawings are 16 1/2" long, and quite detailed. They do not show the memorial, but there are a lot of photos of the structure. Another good source of info is Paul Stillell's "BATTLESHIP ARIZONA, an Illustrated History", with lots of good photos. If you are unable to get a copy of the first book, let me know, and I'll send you a copy of the drawings. Happy Modelling, Chris Preston, Victoria, B.C. Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "David Hathaway" Subject: Re: Lord Nelson Plans I presume the request was for a set of lines for the Lord Nelson built just before the Dreadnought in 1906 or thereabout? Marine Modelling International magazine plans service has a set of plans listed for her. Web site is something like www.traplet.co.uk - I bought the set by the same draughtsman of the Inflexible and they are first class and include lines. Regards David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Jim Johnson" Subject: Paints, acrylic and others There has been some questions and discussion about acrylic paints over the last week to 10 days. Since I have been modeling for some time and have experience with most brands of paint, both current and past, I might be able to shed some light on the matter. I, after years of fighting it, use acrylic at every chance I have. I want anyone who might want to try acrylic, has tried it and not liked it or currently uses it bur doesn't like the results, to obtain some Liquitex Airbrush Medium or Liquitex Flow-Aid. Liquitex is a company that markets acrylic paint for the art market. You can find it at most art supply stores (like Michaels in the USA) or order it from Dixie Art (www.dixieart.com) . Flow Aid is thinned with distilled water at 20 water to 1 Flow Aid. Airbrush medium is used straight. I prefer Airbrush Medium over Flow Aid, but both will work. Thin the paint with either of these and you will find much better results. You could probably use both together, but I have never tried that. I have used Model Shipways paints from Model Expo with acceptable results. I can not remember the exact thinning ratio I used. I submitted the results from my experiments to the list when I did that so maybe a search of the data base would find it. The paints remind me of latex house paint in consistency. I found them to brush on fairly well but a bit tricky to airbrush. I can be done, and done well but it takes a bit of experimenting. My understanding is that, I believe it is Sherwin Williams that can match any color you bring to them with a computer. It's one of the big paint companies, or maybe several that can do it. My impression is that if someone took a Snyder and Short paint chip to them and asked for a match the paint in latex house paint, what you would get is similar to Model Shipways. I tried Badger acrylic when it first came out. I used to search for a good white paint, which along with yellow, is very hard to get to cover well. (I have since found a white paint that stands head and shoulders above the rest). I was not impressed with the Badger. I believe that they changed the formula since I tried it and I would try it again if I could ever find any of their marine colors. Tamiya is good paint, but they are woefully short on selection. They don't even come close to covering aircraft and armor colors, let alone marine colors. I don't use them because of this. Polly-Scale are the best of the lot. If you thin them with Liquitex Airbrush Medium, they are super. They have some USN colors in their line, at least I think they do. I have heard that they dropped these, but my retailer still has them in his rack. Some have had discouraging things to say about the shades of their colors I see that WEM had a little billy-do about their pending line of paints. They stated that they will be made by the people who do Xtracolor. I am a little disappointed by this. I have used Xtracoulor in the past and found one glaring fault. They take forever to dry. I painted a Boeing 737 in their Simpsons Yellow paint and had to let it sit a week before I could pick it up without leaving a fingerprint impressed into the paint. Perhaps the flat colors aren't as bad. We can hope so. You can use Japan Drier and cut the drying time down to 2 days, but Japan Drier is a translucent very dark brown liquid. If you are going out of your way to obtain the proper colors, why then change the tint with additives. The popular thing is to use some exotic chemical to thin acrylics. Some people use windshield washer fluid (along with the added blue tint), some use Windex glass cleaner, some even use blue mouthwash(Scope). Of course most of these are mostly water and alcohol. If you use these and like the results, keep it up. If you are looking for a thinner, don't use these. Use the Airbrush medium. It is around $5 for 8oz. At the least, use distilled water. People swear by alcohol and then complain that the paint clogs up their airbrush. The reason the airbrush clogs is that the paint dries on the tip and builds up till no paint can get past. Alcohol speeds the drying and water slows it down. Cleaning your airbrush or brush is simple with acrylics. I have a jar of alcohol that I clean my brushes with. My airbrush I clean with a tablespoon of water with a small amount of dishwashing liquid. I spray it through and then spray a tablespoon full of alcohol through. About every 10 to 20 times, I take it apart and clean it completely. I hope these ramblings have been some help you, Jim Johnson IPMS 1788 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Robert Healy" Subject: Hobby Shop in Tokyo Greetings to All, A while back there was a posting about a hobby shop in Tokyo that was good. Well, I am here TDY for a few weeks and wondered if anyone had the address. I can endure the subway for this. Thanks, Bob Healy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Request: Hull lines for HMS Lord Nelson (Pre-dreadnought) Check out "Battleships of World War I" by Anthony Preston ISBN#0-8117-0211-1 Oddly enough, this book is a goldmine of hull lines for pre-dreadnoughts. Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Bill & Kaja Michaels" Subject: LCVP: Does anyone make a detail set? I've recently started looking for ways to improve my 1/32 scale Lindberg LCVP kit. I looked at some 1/35 armor websites, and have found some nice replacement .30 cal machine guns. This started me thinking.... What else is available that could be used on the LCVP kit? Wouldn't it be great if someone made a coxs'n cockpit set, a weapons set, and a crew set? Anyone have any recommendations of things to look for/get? I know there's a ton of stuff out there for 1/35 armor, but it is a lot to sift through. In many cases, it is a listing of items on a web page, with no photo. (If you know what you want, it is easy to order.) The source for the guns I mentioned: Collector's Brass. I found a listing with pictures on the R&J Enterprises web site. www.rkproducts.com TIA Bill Check out my US Coast Guard subjects model list at: http://www.tiac.net/users/billkaja/kitlist.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: PT Dockyard Subject: Re: J,K,L,M... NO MORE!!!!! >> This happens when an author gets complacent and with Alan Raven's recent publications there is a strong >thread of that running through it. ........ .......flawed work......... Remember this I have done the research but Mr Raven hasn't and neither have you........ << The eloquent reply... >> SOD OFF. << Enough of this! I have found in 30 years of research that most of the time I take an absolute stand, something comes along to prove me wrong. If I may quote Paul from the Book of Romans to the participants of this schoolyard name calling, "Proclaming themselves to be wise, they became fools.." Dave Gregory -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: RhinoBones@aol.com Subject: Thoroughbred Models I've been trying to call up the Thoroughbred Models home web page, however, all of my links appear to be broken. Even an internet search didn't come up with a new link. Does anyone know if they still have an active home page or have they closed up shop? Regards, RhinoBones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "jmsr1990.in" Subject: Re: DKM destroyers Thanks Roy, I have Mr. Whitleys's book and yes it is a good reference. I will now try to track down the other two that you mentioned. You can never have enough references. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Edd Pflum Subject: Re: Lindberg Diesel Tug re-released >> This is good news to the RC scale shipmodelers-- the Lindberg tug is a popular model for conversion to a mini-RC model. While the detail is typical Lindberg, the basic shapes are there-- it is a pretty reasonable rendition of a 1944 US Army 86' steel tug. << For those considering converting this model, MicroGlass: http://www.modelersboatyard.com/microglass/index.html produces a fiberglass hull for this kit. The hull is a little deeper in draft to provide more displacement for the weight of the RC gear, and has a more faired stern and skeg. Edd Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Bergschöld Pelle Subject: Re: Royal Navy's Type 42 Question >> I have a picture of Coventry before the war with CY on her flight deck. However there was a website showing Coventry in her death throws leaning over with her deck markings visible to another ship. I couldn't find it again. These markings seem to change over time as well. << At war, these markings are normally painted over to prevent the enemy from identifying a particular ship. That was the case at the Falklands war and that is why you cannot see any deck ID on the photo from her sinking. Regards Pelle SWE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Bergschöld Pelle Subject: Reply to mr´s Van Deynze and Pflum Erwin Van Deynze: You're absolutely right. I stand corrected. Edd Pflum: I'd say most of the leather trim is thrown out, but it is a nice machine to fly anyway, they say. Before the GIV:s, we used a pair of old french Caravelles until just a few years ago, but the ESM-equipment has grown less bulky over the years so a smaller aircraft did well as replacement. There are pictures of both the GIV and the Caravelle on the internet, and the swedish Caravelle version can be built in 1/72 from the french Mach 2 model kit. Anyone know about a kit in 1/72 of the GIV? Caravelle: http://home.swipnet.se/airline/military.html GIV and Caravelle: http://www.mil.se/flyg/lib/foto/foto9901/tp85S102.jpg regards Pelle SWE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: Skytrex >> Service and packing is very good, but overseas customers be warned that their fixed shipping costs are astronomical which is a shame. << Hi; The Skytrex 1:600 models are intended for wargames. requiring a fair bit of handling. They mold as much as possible in 1 piece for sturdiness. I'm trying a Fairmile for a more acurate model, but having more luck with my PT Dockyard 1:600 WWII Italian SPICA, in resin it's easier to work with. I've delt with Skytrex for quite a few years. If you order by credit card they charge actual shipping cost, not that scarey fixed amount. Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister http://www.egroups.com/group/WoodenWalls Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "michael thrupp" Subject: Re: 1/400 Tamiya IJN Cruisers With reference to repop of Tamiya 1/400 IJN cruisers (vol 1212,5) count me in and aboard. YES PLEASE! and how about Otaki's 1/400 Nagato & Mutsu as well? I also would be interested in cheap and/or DIY PE. I have made replacement deckedge railings for Revells 1/125 U-Boat by soldering pieces of florists wire together but, although better than moulded originals, they still aren't as good as PE. I have been quoted a price of £400 to have these done as PE by the people who do the Airwaves PE. Grateful for any advice Thanks Mike Thrupp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: LCM querie I have a line drawing of an LCM that´s different from all LCM´s I know: 3, 5 and 8. has somebody pictures of other LCM versions he could send me? Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://sites.netscape.net/friedkappes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: LCU class I have a line drawing of an LCU but I do not know of which class. Has somebody pictures of LCU classes he could send me? Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://sites.netscape.net/friedkappes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: CV9 Essex 40mm layout Hello, I'm about to start on the Hasegawa 1/700 Essex, and am planning on depicting her as she appeared in 1944 with the two-tone destroyer camoflage scheme. I've previously read of the many 'deficiencies' with this kit (many I can live with), but I know that the layout of the quad 40's on the kit are completely wrong as the Essex never received the extra starboard mounts under the superstructure as well a number of the port side guns. I've looked through Friedman's "US Carriers", Squadron's "Essex Class Carriers", and the Floating Drydock guide to Camoflage on US carriers, and can't find any clear shots of both sides to determine what the exact 40mm fit was. Can anyone help find this information? Thanks, Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Mike Dunn SMML Webmaster" Subject: Site upload Hi all, Well, the Archives are up-to-date once more, and there are several other areas for your enjoyment: - a walkabout the Delhi class destroyer INS MYSORE - John Lambert has a short item in Articles on British Mines of WW I - Chris Rogers, RhinoBones & Bob Pearson now have their own pages in Splice The Mainbrace There are a few more in the pipeline, so watch this space! Mike SMML Webmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Classic Warships going to the printer! Better late than never! After dealing with the bureaucracy at the ISBN Agency (USA), I now have all I need to go to the printers on books #11 Lexington Class Carriers, and #13 IJN Kongo Class Battleships. It normally takes about two weeks to print, so I should be shipping out books to the distributors and dealers by the end of this month. Both books are 72 pages packed with over 100+ photos in each, plus drawings in the Kongo book, retailing at $13.95 ea. Next up: Warship Pictorial #12 Benson/Gleaves Class Destroyers Warship Pictorial #14 USS Wichita CA-45 Warship Pictorial #15 KM Schnellboote Warship Pictorial #16 USS New Jersey BB-62 Updates will be posted on the Classic Warships Web Site as they become available. Thanks, Steve Wiper www.classicwarships.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Keith Butterley Subject: RN Camo II books in stock Hi, I now have the RN Camouflage Volume II 1942 book in stock. Canada $24Cdn + $5Cdn shipping USA $16US + $3US shipping Happy modeling Keith Butterley http://www.warshipbooks.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: Lindberg Tugs at the Base Yes Lindbergs' Diesel Tug is at The Naval Base. http://www.modelshipbuilding.com/dieseltug.htm Shaya Novak Naval Base Hobbies The Store for The Model Ship Builder www.modelshipbuilding.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume