Subject: SMML VOL 1219 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:37:19 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Drawings of Royal Navy Monitors 2: Re: Death of the Scharnhorst 3: 1/300 Tamiya Destroyer 4: Squadron colors 5: My post on the Heller Prinz Eugen 6: Washington Navy Yard 7: Re: Prinz Eugen Camouflage 8: Re: personal vituperation 9: Re: Personal Vituperation 10: Re: SMML Posting 11: Re: Raven-Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: Washington DC Area May 2001 SMMLcon 2: USS HornetCon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: SMML members in the SF Bay Area -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: Drawings of Royal Navy Monitors In addition to the book ' Big Gun Monitors' by Ian Buxton as mentioned in recent postings, the recently published book 'British Warships of the Second World War' by John Roberts has images of the original 'as-fitted' drawings of HMS Roberts. Regards Les Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Peter Samolinski" Subject: Re: Death of the Scharnhorst One final note on the Winton "Death of the Scharnhorst" book: it was first published in 1983; the current hullabaloo concerns a trade paperback which was released late last year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: NEVENGER@aol.com Subject: 1/300 Tamiya Destroyer Say I was on the Hobby Link Japan web site today I and I saw that there was a listing for a Tamiya IJN DD Yugumo for sale in 1/300. What does any one know of this model? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Matthew Prager" Subject: Squadron colors A quick question. My brother models aircraft (I know, but it's at least Naval aircraft) and is looking for good references on squadron colors for WWII carrier squadrons adn which squadrons were assigned to which carriers. Any suggestions? Matt Prager -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Peter K. H. Mispelkamp Subject: My post on the Heller Prinz Eugen Guys Thanks for calling me up on my miscue on the 40 mm quads - yes, the Prinz - nor any other KM warships - never carried such an animal. Can't remember if that error slipped in because of too much wine, women or song! So much for my proof-reading skills - when it comes to what I have written myself! The easiest mistake to overlook is the one you made! Sincerely Peter K. H. Mispelkamp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: steven lau Subject: Washington Navy Yard I will be in DC next week, does anyone know if the museum is open again? Thanks, Steven Lau -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen Camouflage Hi SMML, With all the recent talk of the Heller 1/400 Prinz Eugen and the recent and upcoming 1/700 kits from Hi-Mold and Samek, I thought I would see if anyone has any thoughts about how to paint up the Prinz Eugen as she was during the Bismarck chase after the Baltic stripes were painted out in Norway. I've seen a few photographs of her taken as she arrived in Brest on June 1st 1941, but I can't make out a lot; it does seem that her bow is darker than the hull farther aft. Would it be a safe bet to paint the bow and stern a dark gray (as in her Baltic stripe scheme), to paint the area formerly covered by the Baltic stripes a lighter gray, and the rest of her a different gray somewhere in between? Any thoughts on how this would translate in Snyder & Short chips? There is a photograph of her on page 67 of Robert Stern's "Kriegsmarine" taken in February 1942 that seems to show her old striped areas in a lighter gray, but I have trouble making out much more than that. I assume the Prinz Eugen's turret tops were dark gray during Rheinubung; let's not get into yet another discussion, if we can help it, about the Bismarck's turret tops.... Thanks, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Ken Goldman" Subject: Re: personal vituperation Regarding the Hatfields and McCoy's (Raven/Langtree) feud: ENOUGH ALREADY! It is both appropriate and useful for members to point out perceived inaccuracies in the research material upon which most of us must rely, but this should be accompanied by the contradicting evidence. Subsequent healthy debate on the "facts" also is germaine and helps reveal historical truth. Debate that has devolved into personality clashes has no place on SMML. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER unique wood sculpture and fine scale models www.walruscarpenter.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: royrichey@att.net Subject: Re: Personal Vituperation I agree with Lamar. In researching my models I have found many errors concerning them. Often the books containing those errors provided a lot of other useful information, that I could verify as correct. It is by cross-referencing different sources and comparing to what photos are available that we determine what 'we' think is correct. As far as modeling is concerned, my goal is to be happy with what I build. If there is a mistake, then I am the one that did not research it enough or take enough time to build it better. I don't blame Raven, Cocker, Koch, or anyone else. Roy ps--Lamar, I had to get out the dictionary for this one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Michael Bartel Subject: Re: SMML Posting >> I think the least admirable messages sent to SMML are those which engage in personal scorn and denigration. It seems to me that SMML can serve its most valuable role by providing good technical interchanges between model builders, not in attacking others. There is a place to alert others about genuine fraud, but to disagree in civil ways about interpretations of data, techniques, etc, seems to me to be displaced. SMML lost Alan Baker's absolutely first class knowledge, attacks were made again Bill Gruner, and now Alan Raven is a target. I much prefer to be able to access knowledge wherever it exists, and not to see it lost because of simple nastiness. << I agree with Lamar. I have only been a part of SMML for a short time now, and I was surprised to learn just now that Bill Gruner was the target of attacks like the ones on Mr. Raven and Mr. Coker. Let me say that since 1993, when I first started dealing with Mr. Gruner, I personally have found him to be fair when I have dealt with him as a manufacturer or as a customer, and I think he has done a lot for this hobby. If I had a problem with him, I would do what I would do with anyone- contact him directly and try to resolve the dispute privately. Unless he or someone else is obviously engaging in intentional wholesale fraud or dishonesty, a public villification is not called for. Though I am sure that Bill, like everyone else in this business (myself included) has probably had his share of detractors for one reason or another, give the person the benefit of the doubt and if you have a problem with something they have done for you, that's why they have contact information such as an address, a phone number, or an email address. Everyone in this business that sells/makes kits, publishes books or makes drawings works very hard to make their projects a successful reality. It is perceived as easy by many people, and I can tell you that it is NOT. I myself have learned a lot from many postings on SMML and on the various Internet message boards related to this hobby, and I have found everyone to be very helpful and forthcoming with information when I have need to be enlightened or supplied with it. That's what these groups should be for. Mike Bartel IHP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: MGross1352@aol.com Subject: Re: Raven-Langtree I have been unable to read SMML for about 2 weeks due to my work level. I caught up today and found loads of venomous comments on both sides of this issue. First of all let me state for the record that I hold Alan Raven in the highest esteem. The body of his work speaks for itself and all modellers/researchers owe him for all his fine work. No one is above error but Alan has, to my recollection, corrected errors when they have surfaced. I believe my training gives me some specific insight into the area. I have a B.A., a B.S., an M.A. and completed all course work for a Ph.D., all in history. I trained as and serve as an attorney, with suitable litigation experience and training designed to make me a sceptic. I am co-author of Regia Marina, Italian Battleships of WW II, and I have had a couple of articles published in Warship International (one of which was plagerized big time by a well known U.K. author). I believe I am aware of what orignal research involves and only wish I could do it full time. That said let me state that I have corresponded with Chris Langtree in the past (circumstances including family illness, and the demands of work forced my unilateral cessation. Chris is always willing to correspond and to exchange views-he is knowledgable and well trained in history). However, with that said, he lacks a sense of subtlety, and he is willing to alienate others when he believes he has the evidence to support his position. I honestly believe that despite the language that he uses in his letters, of a disparaging nature, that he wants to be constructive but he does not realize that he is so negative. Once his book is published I am sure that many people will give him far more credit but that does not mean he should be oblivious to others sensitivities. I think that there is no room for this kind of dispute here. The site is meant for the friendly exchange of information not for unrestrained attacks by readers on each other. It is my view that the critiques by one side on the other should be found in book reviews, etc. I think Shane does an amazing job but at the risk of sounding conservative (which I definitely am not) these type of disputes should be kept off the site. Let's all be civil and remember that we all lose if we let anger take the place of imformation. Thank you for hearing me out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: maeisen@erols.com Subject: Washington DC Area May 2001 SMMLcon Folks: Due to popular demand, I am organizing another DC area SMMLcon, for Sunday, 20 May 2001, 1-3 PM, again at Nostalgic Plastic Hobbies in Silver Spring, Maryland. This event will coincide with the Joint Services open house weekend at Andrews Air Force Base, in Washington, DC, so those SMMLies planning to come up to DC to attend the open house can also now attend the SMMLcon, and vice versa! Please let me know if you think you might attend the SMMLcon, so I know how many people to expect. (Please contact me privately by e-mail.) I will post instructions for getting to Nostalgic Plastic as the date of the SMMLcon approaches. Hoping to see you all there! Mike Eisenstadt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Duane Fowler Subject: USS HornetCon Hello All, I would like to express my gratitude to all who participated in the Second Annual SMML Con aboard the USS Hornet. Where else can one spend an entire weekend talking about ship modeling without someone saying "There he goes again..."? I will keep this short as both Sami and I came down with colds and I am headed for some much needed sleep but I just wanted to let everyone know that once again I thoroughly enjoyed myself and was honored to be able to spend the time with all of you. Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: SMML members in the SF Bay Area Hello All, I have a great number of excess plastic model kits that I would like to sell at reasonable prices. A lot of Airfix 1/600, a few 1/1200, some 1/700 waterline series, both World War II and Modern, Tamiya 1/350, a 1/350 Titanic, a Glencoe Oregon, DML 1/350, Hunt for Red October USS Dallas, Monogram Chicago, MPC 1/200 waterline, and a bunch of others. Here is the deal. I really don't want to have to take a lot of time to do this, answering emails, making up lists, that sort of thing. So, if you live in the area, and want to come by my place to look at the kits and make an offer on any that you want, please email me and we can set a time for you to see the lot. At this time, please no emails about specific kit requests or mail order- I am working a lot of hours these days, and don't want to spend a lot of time on this. SMML'ers get first crack at the them. In a few days, I will put a similar notice on the Warship Board, and then, if I still have anything left, I will eventually list the remainder on eBay. So, if you are looking for some decent deals at builder prices let me know and you can come over to get a few. Cordially, Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto Maritime Photography www.warshipphotos.com Now taking credit cards via Paypal! Warship Models Underway www.warshipmodelsunderway.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume