Subject: SMML VOL 1236 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 13:45:01 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Scale model figures for crew 2: 1/350 Turn of the Century ships 3: New 1/600 Subjects 4: Liberty ship conversions 5: Re: WW-2 carrier landing lights 6: Re: CSS Stonewall 7: Re: WW-2 carrier landing lights 8: Re: Airfix figures and Dr. Frankenstein 9: Re: First plastic ship 10: Re: 1/350 Forrest Sherman 11: Re: First plastic Model and Echo submarines 12: WW2 NIGHT GROUPS 13: FIRST KIT 14: Paper Models 15: Skywave Echo II 16: Re: Airfix and "hairy" crews 17: My first plastic model 18: Las Vagas Hobby Shops 19: Re: First kit 20: Brooklyn Warning 21: Saving Old Model Kits 22: First Model and Battles 23: Re: Pearl Harbour book 24: Re: Wives and model building 25: Re: Fletcher mast 26: Re: First Kit 27: First plastic kit -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Art Herrick" Subject: Scale model figures for crew Re: Rod Dautevil wrote in SMML, Vol. 1234, 3 May, Message 3: >> I have a couple of scenarios where I will or won't use a crew. If the model is on a stand for display, I won't use a crew. I know figures enhance reality, a ship model on a stand isn't realistic, it's a display. On the other hand, if I make a waterline model with a base, or a full hull in a drydock diorama, then I'll add crewmembers. Contrary to my first comment, I don't think it's realistic to have a ship underway (or in drydock) without figures. I wonder if other listmembers feel the way I do? << My thoughts: 1 - I believe a figure, or figures, can give the viewer of your model a sense of scale size. 2- If your skills in carving or sculpting figures are not up to the standard of your ship modeling skills ... forget it! 3 - I have no skill when it comes to carving a figure from wood, but feel I can do a satisfactory job sculpting a figure over a wire skeleton. You can find the sculpting material I use in art supply stores. When your done you bake the figure in your oven, for durability. It can even be used, as a master, to cast duplicate Britannia castings. After baking the material will take the heat and pressure involved when vulcanizing rubber molds. 4 - If you prefer not having a figure aboard your full hull model consider an appropriate vignette on a corner of the model's display base. Presently in progress I have a 1:48 model of the 1920s, Yangtze River Gunboat, USS Panay PR 5. It is planned to include, on the display base, a 1:48 US Navy sailor in a rickshaw, being pulled by a Chinese rickshaw man. My idea is to set the gunboat model in a China scenario, and to give a scale reference to the model. Have some good reference pictures to work from. Another vignette I could set on the display base, is a sailor manning one of the BP shielded Lewis gun mounts from Panay. Here again I have good reference pictures. These mounts were unique to the six gunboats built in a Chinese yard for the US Navy, at Shanghai in 1926/1928, but at the present my thinking is to use the rickshaw vignette. 5 - On the subject of using figures aboard a ship model ... there is a good article in the March/April and May/June issues of Seaways' - SHIPS IN SCALE magazine. The examples shown certainly enhance the models. The figures used were modified from figures readily available on the market in many scales. Art Herrick Westmoreland NH Member: Nautical Research Guild USS CONSTITUTION Model Shipwright Guild Yangtze River Patrol Assoc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: 1/350 Turn of the Century ships All the previously mentioned subjects are great but I think that the first subject shuld be "Christobal Colon" because hull could be used as bases (by Combrig or by a individual modeller) for Japanese "Nisshin" & "Kasuga",Italian "Varese" and few others. Some names not mentioned before: USN - "Iowa" BB-4, Italy - "Duilio" (1880) and "Italia"(1885), Germany - "Brandemburg" class of 1893, GB - "Royal Soveregin (1892) and "Majestic" (1895), France - "Jaureguiberry" (1897). Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: New 1/600 Subjects Hi Folks, Well, Peter Hall has assured me that the Atlantic Models 1/600 kit of the HMS Dido (WW2 light cruiser) will be released in the latter portion of 2001. He is also kicking around the idea of producing a smaller subject if the Dido is successful. The Dido was the top vote getter in a poll I conducted for him on my website International Maritime Modeling. I will let Peter go into specifics. OzMods at one point proposed producing a 1/600 scale (as well as 1/700 and 1/350) of a RAN version of the Majestic Class carriers, maybe a straight-deck and an angled deck version. The names of the two ships escape me right now. Greg Anderson, of OzMods, is an SMML subscriber, so he may chime in. Don't forget that Ocean Liner Models has a new kit of the Normandie in my favorite scale and will hopefully produce more. Regards, Felix Bustelo International Maritime Modeling URL: http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm Hi Felix, The names are HMAS Sydney & HMAS Melbourne ;-) Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: cfrieden@calpoly.edu Subject: Liberty ship conversions >> The Smithsonian 's catalog of ship plans lists 4 separate sets of Liberty ship plans, Liberty Ship, Liberty Ship Collier,Liberty Ship Tanker,Liberty ship Airplane Transport. The Navy also converted some to Station Tankers, Various types of Repair ships, and AK's Most of the changes,other than extra armament & directors, were internal. I have a couple shots of the AK's, they show 5 LCM's stored on deck plus 1- 5"; 1-3" 2 40MM & 6 20MM guns. << I would like to add a little bit to what David said. There were many more wartime Liberty conversions, including tank transports, hospital ships, and troop ships (the John W. Brown is one of these). Postwar they were used as radar pickets, and one Liberty ship was even converted to a floating nuclear power plant for use in Panama. Troop ships, tankers, and AK conversions were very similar to the standard EC2-S-C1 Liberty configuration. The others all involved significant external changes that would need to be included on a model. Also, anyone who is modeling a Liberty ship should check photos to verify how a specific ship was armed. They were fitted with whatever the yard had available at the time, and there was a lot of variation. For example, every model that I have seen of the Jeremiah O’Brien shows her with a 5” gun mounted aft. This is incorrect if she is to be represented in WWII configuration, as she carried two 3” guns during the war. As for LSMs on deck, this is an example of deck cargo. Other possible deck cargos would include crates, trucks, aircraft drop tanks, and even railway equipment. These items would often completely block the deck, so wooden catwalks were constructed to allow the crew to access the deck machinery and gun tubs. Regards, Chris Friedenbach -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Jon Parshall Subject: Re: WW-2 carrier landing lights Japanese aircraft carriers were also equipped with extensive low-light landing aids. The flight decks had lights that indicated the flight deck centerline, as well as deck edges, the position of the rear end of the flight deck (fantail), and (apparently) the position of crash barriers. More importantly, they had light systems to allow carrier pilots to establish a good glide slope into the carrier. This system was a pre-cursor to the "Call the Ball" system the USN now uses--so far as I can tell, the Japanese were the first navy to have developed such a system. In addition, the Japanese also used colored lights at night to indicate wind velocity. I have developed an illustration of these various systems which will be appearing in Mark Peattie's forthcoming book on Japanese naval aviation, due out later this year. Hope that helps. jon parshall- Imperial Japanese Navy Homepage http://www.combinedfleet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Erhardtsen" Subject: Re: CSS Stonewall Drawings of CSS Stonewall see "Vore Panserskibe" by R. Steen Steensen - Marinehistorisk selskab 1968 Erik Erhardtsen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Jon Parshall Subject: Re: WW-2 carrier landing lights Some more on carrier lights. I forgot to mention that the lights on Japanese carriers were designed so as to be visible only from the deck itself or above. They did not shine outward from the ship. Some of you may have read that passage in a number of books like Prange's describing the takeoff of Tomonaga's force from the Midway carriers at 0430 where the deck lights "turn the night into day" and similar twaddle. That's pure baloney, courtesy of Mitsuo Fuchida, who happens to lie about a lot of stuff, not just deck lights. Think about it; how would you illuminate a flight deck in this fashion? You'd need floodlights, right, that presumably would be set appreciably above the flight deck level. Anybody happen to have seen such light arrays on their detail plans of Japanese carriers? Me neither, and my 1/200 scale plans of Akagi are detailed enough that they show damned near everything aboard that ship. I have good plans for Shokaku and Hiryu, too. It's all nonsense. Because as you pointed out, lighting up one's ship like Wrigley Stadium makes very little sense under wartime conditions, so why design lights to do so. Cheers, jon parshall -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "KOSTAS ORNERAKIS" Subject: Re: Airfix figures and Dr. Frankenstein LES WROTE: >> I use good ol' Mk. I Elmer's white glue to attach heads and limbs. If you reposition a limb and create a gap -- say between upper arm and shoulder -- secure the limb to the body with fine wire first, then fill with gap-filling CA glue. You can use the same techniques to attach hard plastic pieces (e.g., helmeted heads) to the vinyl Airfix figures. Note: No super glue that I've found works on these vinyl figures. Anyone have a different experience? << Dear Les, When using gap-filling CA glue,I leave some space for epoxy putty. I work with brush and finally with moistened brush. When putty cures,it also works as weld material. Kostas Ornerakis -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: First plastic ship Our model club had a theme build for one our meeting about 15 years back. It involved building ANYTHING you have never built before. Specifically for example, if you had NEVER built a tank before that type of model would be eligible. The purpose of this build was to introduce members who were tending to stagnate on one type of model to build something different and expand their interests. To make a long story short, for me it was either a tank, car or ship. I HATE tanks and I can't do that immaculate paint job stuff either like they do on cars, so I built a ship. My first ship was the 1/700 Tamiya USS Hornet. Once I got it all put together I was so impressed with its delicate beauty with all those antennas and rigging, I have been hooked ever since. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. You can now pay using your Visa / MasterCard http://okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: 1/350 Forrest Sherman >> I heard from a reliable source the other day that JAG was working on a 1/350 cold war era Forest Sherman DD. Can anyone definitely confirm this? << I can't confirm or deny if JAG is making one or not, but I would buy one if it is a FRAM 2 version. I served on the USS Manley, DD-940. Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Ramires, Filipe C" Subject: Re: First plastic Model and Echo submarines Hello list My first plastic model of all was a Grant/Lee model tank of Hasegawa at 1/72 (I just love guns) and I built it when I had 8 years old with some help of my sister (older then me). I even painted it with small brown and green balls to the camouflage scheme invented by me!!! My first ship ever built was a USS Missouri of Academy at 1/800 (I believe that it was this scale) and their remaining are still alive at home in Portugal. I have built planes until 15 then I found the light of the warships and since then I don't want to built anything except that. Well I must said that I still buy some seaplanes and I have some already started (like the Grumman Duck) and others to start. Honestly nothing is better then one marvellous warship at 1/700 or a submarine at 1/400 or 1/350!!! About the Echo question! I have many models of the Dragon's series at 1/700 (Alpha, Delta and Oscar) but I don't have the Echo II, still I have already seen it outside the box and I must said that the Skywave models are quite better then the ones from Dragon...at least in details. Hope this helps. Regards. Filipe C. Ramires Colchester, UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "DUCKMAN" Subject: WW2 NIGHT GROUPS THE ENTERPRISE FLEW A NIGHT GROUP LATE IN THE WAR. A LOT OF INFO. IS INCLUDED IN THE BOOK "THE BIG E" BY EDWARD STAFFORD. DAVID -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "DUCKMAN" Subject: FIRST KIT I LIKE PAUL'S IDEA ON THIS THREAD. UNFORTUNATELY, MY MEMORY FAILS ME ON MY OWN "FIRST" AND I HAVE TO TALK TO MY OLDER BROTHER, SINCE SURELY HE BOUGHT IT FOR ME. I DO REMEMBER THE F-86 PAUL MENTIONED, BUT I DID NOT BUILD IT.(YES, PAUL AND I ARE THE SAME AGE). I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE ON THIS, BUT PLEASE GIVE THE YEAR OF YOUR "FIRST". DAVID -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Paper Models Could any of US based members tell me if any of American based companies stock a range of cardboard ship models made by German firm "Hamburg"?? Website of the stockist would be appreciated too. Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: joe.sus@att.net Subject: Skywave Echo II The kit isn't too bad, especially in profile, depending on how finicky you are. Most of the hull details are shifted a mm. or three, but it still looks like a Project 675M. The cross sections are a bit more noticably off. I'd suggest fattening the bow in plan view, and narrowing it towards the stern. The section between the first and second missile exhaust openings should be of more or less constant cross section, because there's a cylindrical missile tube just below deck. The leading edge of the sail ought to be slightly more bulbous, sweeping foreward towards the top. After all this, the model looks seriously better if you open up at least the larger holes, such as the missile exhaust ports. Joe Suszynski -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Airfix and "hairy" crews >> The plastic on these airfix soldier sets is really yucky gunky soft - How do you.. a) cut arms and legs to re shape without getting "hairs" of plastic everywhere? b) glue the stuff? Normal solvent glue doesn't cut it for some reason??? << a)-sharp blade to cut and and extra fine wire wool (0000) to remove ALL unwanted hair ;-), b)-some of two part epoxy glues seems to work too, but the best idea is to scavenge spare crew figures from various styrene kits, they will come handy sooner or later. Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Paul Jordan Subject: My first plastic model I got such a thrill from reading your responses to "my first plastic kit"..thank you! I have this warm visual of you wonderfully talented plastic modelers (and you ARE!) as little kids all over the world putting your first models together and recalling the MOMENT that the hook was set and the same THRILL and anticipation that would be repeated every time you started a new kit...and what has, dozens of models later, kept you building them, each one surpassing the quality of the last. Yep for most of us there IS a defining moment in time when it all started and for others a PERSON who defined it. Victor (Baca's) email added a new dimension to the thread, and I was deeply touched by it. "My mother saw me dry fitting the boat and took me to the five and ten-cent store to get plastic cement. She explained how decals went on a model and told me not to get too much of the glue fumes up my nose. I probably would have used LePages on the kit and white glue to stick the decals, paper and all, to the model if it wasn't for my mother's model building savvy, gleaned from raising 5 boys..Mama took notice of my fascination for ships and knack for putting things together. She began buying me plastic ship models for birthdays, Christmas, etc.." << You lucky, lucky man to have such a fond and vivid recollection of this very special person in your life....maybe I've just become a sentimental old fool but your email honestly brought a tear to my eye!... I guess it's important to remember our modeling roots and the PEOPLE who first nurtured our GIFT for transforming plastic into almost every texture and material it isn't!!! In some way, EVERY beautiful model you have ever built is a tribute to these special people. Wouldn't it be nice to know there is some kid who, many years from now, will remember US in the same fond way. Paul J Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Ex Worthing UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "hugh1lottie2" Subject: Las Vagas Hobby Shops I will be in Las Vegas in a couple of weeks and was wondering if there were any good hobby shops. I have never looked on previous visits and I hate to rely on the Yellow Pages because I am disappointed by some of the "holes in the wall" shops that stock three Revell kits and no brass. I have been spoiled by the local hobby shop "Colpar" that has nearly all the plastic ship models available and around 15 brands of resin ships kits. Most of the resin is 1/700 scale which is great with me but they also have that giant [1/350 & 1/400] stuff. Etched brass and Decals with a good supply of reading materials is essential for any quality hobby shop and they have that too. I invite any of you in the area to drop in and enjoy. I would also be interested in any other quality hobby shops in other areas and would like input from other SMMLies about "must see" hobby shops around the world. I plan to do some traveling! Hugh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: First kit This takes me back a ways. Long ago when the world was new, and I was nine.... we had just moved to Denver. I was an early version of a latchkey kid and had a lot of time on my hands. A friend and I were wandering around a Duckwall's Dept. Store and noticed that the end cap of a counter was full of models. My friend and I picked out ships and began, as kids will, arguing the relative merits of each ["My cruiser will shoot holes in your carrier!". My carrier will sink your cruiser before you get in range!".] I had the advantage of him, in that I had my allowance and could afford to buy my choice, one of the Lindbergh generic Cleveland-class CL's, the Columbia in this case, for all of 69 cents plus tax. My friend couldn't afford the $2 for his choice of an Aurora [I think] Enterprise. That night, I built it, leaving more than a few Testors fingerprints, and have been hooked on model ships since. Incidentally, I went back later and my second kit was that Enterprise. By the time I finished with that phase of my modelmaking career at age 16, I had over 200 model ships and planes. I ended up donating most of them to the Navy Recruiting Station in Aurora, Colorado. Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Brooklyn Warning If any of the list mambers plans to order NCR Resin's 1/700 model of USS Brooklyn (ACR 3) please take my advice and DON'T - what NCR has done to this beautifull ship is NOT short of criminal. Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: RhinoBones@aol.com Subject: Saving Old Model Kits The threads about what you are building, what is under the bench and what do you have stock piled, all remind me of a human interest story I read a few years ago. The story goes something like this: A fellow worked all of his adult life and retired. During his working years, he saved for retirement by not only banking his money, but also by periodically buying model car kits. As he accumulated these kits he told his family and friends that he was saving them for retirement, he was saving them so that he could re-live a fond memory of his youth by building model cars. By the time he retired he had accumulated a vast collection of kits, all kits were "Mint In Box", the wrapping intact. A friend of his suggested that he check with an appraiser before he opened the kits . . . you know, just to find out if they were worth more than the original purchase price. He learned that the kits from the 1950s were now worth several hundreds of thousands of dollars, the 1960s kits about the same, the 1970s kits about a hundred thousand dollars. All together his collection had a potential market value of almost half a million dollars. He was now faced with a dilemma. Sell the kits, be rich and possibly by some new kits as replacements, save the kits to pass on after his death or build them as he had always intended. Unfortunately I do not remember what he made as his final decision. Never being in the same position myself, I am not sure what my decision would be. Too bad that they were car kits instead of ship kits! Regards, RhinoBones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Stuart Robottom Subject: First Model and Battles My first model was bought in early 1989 -- Revell 1:720 USS Missouri, painted with red, grey (gray?), silver and black paints. My grandmother then bought me a Revell Cutty Sark in 1990, which I am currently re-rigging. Living away from major cities certainly limits the model range! Luckily I soon became old enough to go on the train to Melbourne by myself, and was able to buy and build all the RAN's DDGs and FFGs in 1:700. With respect to the prospective producer of Battle Class Destroyers, I have a general arrangement plan. Please contact me off-list if interested. Regards, Stuart Robottom http://www.deakin.edu.au/~robottom/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Re: Pearl Harbour book Hi SMMLies, I just picked up the Pearl Harbor book that was mentioned a few days back. The one called The Movie and the Moment. Looks good. I will wait to see what the movie turns out like. I will keep an open mind for I have seen so many mistakes in the books photos of the sets. Okie BB 37 now has 4 props. how can they screw that up with so much info at anyone's finger tips. come on! I'll now shut up and wait for the movie. Just looking at the action photos in the book it still looks very good. If anything I hope it goes good with the survivors for they were the ones who lived it. KTB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Re: Wives and model building Hi SMMLies, I must say my wife is very supportive of my work. For 14.5 years of marriage she has always been there to help with the mental support as in the "up all nighters" to finish for delivery the next day. Has even helped with the small stuff in times of no time left on the clock. She never ever complains about the long hours I'm down in the basement. She's been to many shows and contest and drove many hours just to be there with me and in the end when another model is done, gone and out the door she asks what's next? So what this comes down to is that I have the wife that most model builders would want and I can't ask for more then that. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Shane Weier Subject: Re: Fletcher mast Rusty comments: >> The problem is the way the mast was molded. The mast and the yardarm are molded on the same plane that resemble the classic Christian Cross. WRONG! Yardarms are hung from masts. It should look like one rod on top of another fashioned to look like a cross. There isn't anything difficult about this. I don't understand why model companies insist on doing masts and yards in the wrong fashion that most of them do. << Not too hard to understand. Think about where the widest point of each yard and the mast itself are. This is where the part line *must* be and while it can be done it increases the complexity and cost of the mould (and even if done adds some niggly cleanup work around the joins which will usually have some modeller whining) Obviously - to me anyway - the manufacturers have made commercial decisions to compromise on accuracy (and this will be one of many) in order to keep the cost down and the product commercially viable. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: First Kit Well, I was a cub scout and proud of it (must have been the uniform) Anyway we went on a field trip to Long Beach Naval Ship Yard and went aboard the heavy cruiser USS HELENA which was outboard of the USS ST. PAUL. Wow, what a ship, I can still remember it today. Anywayback in town at our pack meeting or whatever they called them, well all got a model of the USS ST.PAUL, my first kit. But to me it was special as I not only got a really neat model that I really wanted to put together, but also on the box cover was a painting of the ship by John Steele. From there I built more models and copies John Steele's style of painting until I developed my own - remember I was only about 8 years old when I started this "hobby". And as they say the rest is history - today I am a Naval & Aviation Artist who has way to many model kits - I did not respond to the thread on "whats on the bench" I do not want to have to count the ones that I have started and are still "under construction." But it really is a great hobby to combine with art - I hope kids today really get into it. Michael Donegan Naval & Aviation Artist http://members.aol.com/NAVYDAZE/INDEX.HTML -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: PolTexCW@aol.com Subject: First plastic kit This takes me back. It must have been around 1948 - I believe it must have been one of the first plastic kits available. It was a U-Boat - white plastic. The Hull was in two pieces split vertically. They were badly warped and I remember using around 400 rubber bands to hold it together while the glue dried. There were several deck plates - also twisted and warped. Deck guns, props and other details were badly cast and required much work. But - this was a marvelous kit! Before this the only thing available were wooden kits. Anyone remember Comet airplane kits? A sheet of 1/8" balsa for wings, 1/16" for tail planes, a block to carve the fuselage from and a set of three-view drawings. There was also a manufacturer of ship kits, whose name I do not remember, which supplied a rough carved pine(?) hull and a couple sheets of balsa for the superstructure. Now we whine when the pe is too thick, the resin has bubbles or the suggested color scheme is less than authentic. Decadence! John Biskupski -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume