Subject: SMML VOL 1248 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 23:40:59 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Takao and Atago Part 4/4 2: Re: Swordfish in US Markings 3: S.M.S. Koenig - Lindberg model 1/350 scale 4: VALIANT NAMES 5: HMCS Sackville (Flower conversions) 6: HMS Agincourt 7: Plans by Trenk & Prasky 8: Re: SMS Scharnhorst & White & Buff Schemes 9: Re: Seawolf kit-Ratcliffe Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: Chicago 2: IPMS USA Nats 3: Re: IPMS USA Nats 4: Washington DC Area SMMLcon 2001, Sunday May 20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Gernot Hassenpflug Subject: Takao and Atago Part 4/4 Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, Heavy Cruisers of the Takao Class (Japanese Navy Vessels Photo Collection, Vol.10, published by Kojinsha, edited from various 'Maru' issues) P38-44: History and Evolution of Takao and Atago by diagrams (japanese text: Mr. Higashi Seiji) (drawings: Mr. Ishibashi Takao) Distinguishing characteristics of the four ships as built As with the Myoko class, the Takao class ships had no striking distinguishing marks as completed and telling them apart was fairly difficult. The above diagrams show the slight differences that were known. Firstly, the fitting of the bow chrysanthemum crest back to the first fairlead was a small point of difference. Takao and Chokai were almost identical here, while Maya and Atago differed substantially. Secondly, the number and position of the cross braces for the aerial supports on number 2 turret differed. Chokai and Maya were almost identical in this respect. Also, Takao and Atago received a similar configuration following their rebuilding. Then, the number of and placement of portholes on the bridge front, and the the position of the tubes for aerial attachment, differed. And lastly, the number and position of pipes on the funnel sides were a point of difference. Atago and Maya have almost the same layout here. Apart from these differences seen on the diagram, there were a host of others. For example, the edge of the air intake at the lower part of the bridge was of different shapes (on Atago a large 'R' was built at the lower edge) while the fitting of the boat davits aft of this also had minor differences. Be that as it may, the differences between the ships were extremely hard to tell from any distance, and severe restrictions on photography from the time of their completion meant that, unlike the wealth of photographic material on the Myoko class, the work of identifying Takao class ships is made more difficult by lack of photographs. Replacement of the AA weapons during refit At the time the Takao class completed in 1932, Japan was a signatory to the London Treaty which limited the allowed tonnage on Treaty cruisers. With the Takao class, Japan had reached its quota and subsequent cruisers would have to be 15.5cm armed light cruisers. Therefore, the Mogami class, although essentially a Treaty cruiser, was armed with 15.5cm main guns. On the other hand, in order to rememdy some of the deficiencies of the Treaty cruisers, first the Myoko class was taken in hand for modernization in 1934, followed by the Furutaka class in 1936. The Takao class too, being basically improved Myoko class designs as thus of late Taisho period vintage, needed a modernization modeled on the current Mogami class ships. Consequently, Takao and Atago were taken in hand for refit in 1938 at Yokosuka. It should be noted that even before that some small modifications had been had been made to the ships. Firstly, the Vickers-type 40mm guns had been exchanged for Hotchkiss-type quad 13mm machine guns, and the searchlight shields had been removed. Furthermore, the aft mast derrick had been replaced by a thick steel-framed type, probably in order to accommodate the new generation of floatplanes. The foremast was also modified, as had the yards, etc. The modernization refits for the Takao class involved, (1) replacement and improvement of the heavy and light AA, together with their associated fire-control positions (2) changes in the torpedo armament, (3) changes to the aircraft handling equipment (4) improvement of the wireless equipment (moving of the aft mast) (5) modifications to the bridge (6) addition of bulges (7) improvement in the accomodation facilities (8) rebuilding of the emergency facilities (9) changes to the machinery, etc. All the work was to be done at Yokosuka, but as that yard was overcrowded, and the workshops at Maizuru which had recently been upgraded to full-size yards had developed their skills, Atago had her bulges fitted and other hull work carried out there, after which the remainder of the work was carried out at Yokosuka. Takao went into refit in May 1938, Atago in April of that year, and they emerged on 21 August and 30 October 1939 respectively. The first thing that was to be undertaken was the replacement of the heavy AA by the 40 calibre Type 89 twin 12.7cm turrets as mounted on the Mogami and modernized Myoko classes. At this time however, the mountings were not fitted, only the barbettes, shell rooms and magazines, and other systems were updated. The light AA was updated by the removal of the existing machine guns, and the fitting of four Type 96 twin 25mm mounts around the funnels, and a pair of Tpe 93 twin 13mm machine guns on the bridge sides. This was to be the standard japanese heavy cruiser light AA armament at the start of the Pacific war. Newly fitted high angle positions were: a Type 91 high-angle fire-control positions together with its associated 4.5m rangefinders on either side of the bridge, and a Type 95 light AA fire control position installed behind the forward funnel on either side. The twin torpedo tubes were replaced by Type 92 quadruple tubes with 24 Type 93 torpedos. The Type 93 torpedo was a secret weapon designed for ultra-ling range, and therefore a fire-control position was installed on the fore mast top. To prevent the secret from leaking out, it was referred to as a formation observation position. Also, equipment for manufacturing the compressed air the torpedo was powered by and other related equipment was installed. Lastly, the hull apertures for the tubes were changed in shape. Along with the repositioning of the aft mast to just before number 4 turret to lengthen the aerials and thus improve the wireless functions, the foremast was changed to a tripod type, and the direction finder room which had until then been placed near the top rear of the bridge was moved to the middle bridge, and the forward wireless room was enlarged to form a communications command centre. The height of the aft mast aerial yards above sea level was increased to 33.4m. Also, in conjunction with the remodeling of the aft part of the aircraft handling deck, the after wireless room was repositioned, and a wireless coordination room was built nearby. With the movement of the rear mast, the superstructure between the upper AA deck and the rear turret was built up to the same level, and on both sides of this new aircraft deck a Kure Type Number 2 Model 5 catapult was installed. As before, the aircraft carried were to be one three-seat and two two-seat floatplanes, and rails and turntables for their movement were built on the aircraft handling deck. In addition, the aircraft bomb magazine was upgraded to hold four 250kg and forty-four 60kg bombs, and a new gasoline tank with a capacity of 19 kilolitres was created from the number 13 reserve fuel tank in the rear hold. Modifications to the bridge began by replacing the main 4.5m rangefinder with a 6m one removed from number 1 turret and the replacement of the related equipment and director with the Type 94 system. The layout of all rooms above the compass bridge was revised and the relevant deck area reduced. Aft of the rear funnel an auxiliary control position was built, with a Type 94 director. Aft of this, a large recess was built into the forward aircraft deck as a boat storage and the area denoted as boat storage deck. Accommodation was renovated by the addition of an extension to the number 1 officer's sleeping quarters (18 men), while accommodation for other ranks was also increased. A total of 970 crew was provided for. Furthermore, an emergency command position as in the Mogami class was built, as were counter-flooding equipment and its attendant control room, and the gas protection equipment was updated along the lines of the Tone class. To offset the weight penaly of these modifications, bulges were fitted to the hull, and an increase in draft was thereby averted. Near the waterline watertight integrity was strengthened by the insertion of numerous steel pipes. Furthermore, pumps were fitted to the bulges to allow selective counter-flooding. Lastly, to increase the strength of the hull, the upper deck and the centre part of the lower hull were made double. This reinforcement increased the weight-bearing ability of the superstructure and upper decks. Modifications to the machinery took the form of new reinforced uptakes, while the auxiliary boilers were removed. The auxiliary rudder engine was also removed, and the exhausts for the cruise turbines were fed to the high-pressure turbines, while the induction turbines were removed. Further, to lessen stress on the hull, some 480t worht of fuel tanks were repositioned, and the full fuel load was decreased by some 256t. After modifications, the Takao's specifications were as follows: standard displacement: 13.400t trials displacement: 14.838t length (at waterline, on trials): 201.72m breadth (at waterline, on trials): 19.52m average draft (on trials): 6.32m range: 5.049 nautical miles at 18 knots fuel: 2.318t speed (on trials): 34.25 knots power (on trials): 133.100 hp As for the as yet unmodified sisters Chokai and Maya, they too were scheduled for refit in 1941, but this was prevented by the outbreak of the Pacific war, and they went to the front line as they were. Only Maya is known to have received a refit, carried out during her battle damage repairs. The envisaged refit in 1941 would not apparently have seen the repositioning of the rear mast, but the rest presumably would have been as for Takao and Atago. Figure 2 shows Takao after her modification refit, also after her twin 12.7cm DP guns were fitted. Actually, these are said to have been fitted shortly after the start of the Pacific war, probably in March 1942 when Takao returned to Yokosuka after the completion of the first phase of the war strategy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Swordfish in US Markings The aircraft in question are probably folded SOC Seagulls rather than Swordfish. Most CVEs seem to have done aircraft ferry runs during their shakedown cruises. That would explain the deckload on Liscome Bay. Prince William operated as a ferry carrier most of the war, as did Barnes. Altamaha did a tour as an ASW carrier in early 1944, but for most of her service served as a ferry or replenishment carrier. Also, the squadron assignments and numbers listed in the Terzibaschitsch works are open to question as there is no source cited for them. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Thomas Zaccone" Subject: S.M.S. Koenig - Lindberg model 1/350 scale Hi, I have been a lurker to this group for a while and saw the above model for sale in my local shop. How accurate is it? Are there aftermarket kits and boks available on the original ship to use as a guide? Thanks in advaccne for your help. Tom Zaccone -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "DUCKMAN" Subject: VALIANT NAMES LET US NOT FORGET THE OFFENSIVE NAMES OF SOME OF JOHNNY WALKER'S GROUP; STARLING, WREN, WILD GOOSE, WOODPECKER, ETC. DAVID -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Bob Pearson" Subject: HMCS Sackville (Flower conversions) Greetings all, As part of my ongoing L'Arsenal Flower conversions I have started on HMCS Sackville in her 1982 configuration. I have most of the details covered, but am curious as to the colour of the superstructure. Would it be the greenish grey of the RCN? Flower conversions you ask? Well.. .. so far they are: - HMCS Dauphin (short focsle from the early kit) - HMS Jonquil (from early kit - new bridge) - HMCS Snowberry (late kit OOB) - HMCS Arvida or Vancouver (late kit converted to RCN configuration) - HMCS Sackville (early hull only, rest is to be scratchbuilt or aftermarket) The other three will probably become an RN short focsle; the Free French Aconit using the early kit OOB and the final one is going to be an increased endurance one. That will be fun redoing the bow !!!!! I have to say that the L'Arsenal kits are a great starting place for these conversions, the hulls are easily chopped up. The short focsle probably took an hour to do all told (minus the later filling and sanding). I have been contacted by a fellow wanting further information on the German Flowers PA.1-4, all I know is name launched fate PA.1 (ex.Arquebuse) 16 Oct'40 Bombed Le Havre June'44 PA.2 (ex. Hallebarde) 27.nov'40 lost in the channel 15 June'44 PA.3 (ex.Sabre) 29 No.40 Bombed Le Havre June'44 PA.4 (ex.Poignard) 29 Nov'40 sunk as blockship 25 Aug'44 I then surmise the following: These would most likely appear like the very early corvettes, with the short focsle, and merchantman-appearing bridge. Armament was 1 x 4.1", 4 x37mm (2x2) and a 20mm Vierling The bridge would certainly be different. . the Type 271 radar would not be fitted, nor would the asdic hut at the front of the open bridge. The basic inner bridge could be used, the sides left off and a new upper bridge constructed perhaps using a German style of patrol craft as a guide The galley between the bridge and funnel would not be there. the first corvettes had their galley at the very rear of the ship in front of the depth charges. The hedgehog launcher on the stbd side in front of the bridge would not be fitted, nor would the Lewis guns on the aft engine room casing. This has me intrigued, I would really like to do an ilustration of one of these ships .. and perhaps even another conversion. Regards, Bob Pearson Managing Editor / Internet Modeler http://www.internetmodeler.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "John Rule" Subject: HMS Agincourt >> About a week ago, I received photographic copies of the original builders plans held by the National Maritime Museum in the UK on a ship named AGINCOURT. The plan set was extensive, including lines, GA's, etc... a scratchbuilder's dream set. The AGINCOURT plans are dated as Chatham in 1844, with annotations dated 1869, and a plan of the rig dated 1894. The ship is an early steamship, single screw, with four large bore cannon/rifles - two mounted on the poop and two on the forecastle. She has a tall thin funnel and can obviously be fitted with sails. She looks a bit like WARRIOR. A very cool set of plans!!!! << The only Agincourt that I know in that period is HMS Agincourt which was a timber-hulled ironclad launched in 1865. The ship was 400' in length, and was fully sail rigged with 5 masts. She had two funnels and was armed with 4 9" MLR, 24 7" MLR and 8 24-pdrs. By 1898 Agincourt's rig had been reduced to 3 masts. The ship you describe does not seem to fit the above description. I was unable to find a ship named Agincourt which predated the one I described above, so it is possible that the ship you have described may not be a Royal Navy ship. Sincerely, John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Plans by Trenk & Prasky Hi, I recently acquired a set of plans for SMS Lutzow drawn by Gunter Trenk, and was extremely impressed. I know he also did a set of plans for SMS Konig (see P.C. Coker's "Building Warship Models"), but what others did he do? Are any of these plans available anywhere? In the same vein, Alan Raven's article on sources of information in Bowen's "Scale Model Warships" speaks highly of the plans by F. Prasky, and the article reproduces a very nice plan for SMS Radetzky. What other plans did he do (other than the Viribus Unitis, as stated in the article), and are they available anywhere? Thanks, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: SMS Scharnhorst & White & Buff Schemes Hi, Dave Ward's post about the paint scheme of SMS Scharnhorst at Coronel & the Falklands reminds me of a question I've had for a while. The book "The Maritime Paintings of Robert Taylor" has a beautiful painting of German East Asiatic Squadron, including Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, in what looks to me like a white & buff scheme. This may well have been painted out by the time of Coronel and the Falklands, but my question is, didn't most European navies that had units stationed in China use a white and buff scheme? The Imperial German Navy evidently did, I think the Royal Navy did, and think the US Navy used a white and buff scheme at some point prior to WWII, maybe only prior to WWI. Why was this scheme used, and was the "buff" color the same for all these navies? What would be a good paint match for the buff used by the Royal Navy? I'd like to do the Hi-Mold Dorsetshire as the Norfolk in white and buff. Thanks! Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Seawolf kit-Ratcliffe Models Ralph can be reached at: RalphRatcliffe@email.msn.com. These are resin kits, and there is virtually no assembly required, just a careful paint job. The only exception is the LA kit, where there are several option for assembly, depending on whether you want an early or later version of the class. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "hugh1lottie2" Subject: Chicago I will be in Chicago this year and my preference for a meeting space is next to the pool even though Caroline will not be there in that yellow bikini. Do you think Rusty will wear his? We should get several speakers to do two or three informal workshops every day, we could coordinate it through a vendor [I will be there at Loose Cannon] if we can find a space for a few bodies. Nothing fancy, just a bull session for boat modelers. Now is the time to find out what the resin, brass and decal producers are working on and to make sure they hear your concerns. Start that wish list. Hugh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Timothy Dike Subject: IPMS USA Nats >> A few months back, I was trying to get together a sense of the list as to who would be attending the Nats and what would be out preferences regarding getting a meeting space for a "informal" SMMLCon. << I will be attending this year, and look forward to meeting some other SMMLies. I'm open on the meeting place. On another note anyone have any thoughts on a Regional SMML convention? Being landlocked in the midwest and unable to get to the last two CON's has me feeling a bit jealous. Is there enough of us concentrated in the middle of the country to pull it off? I'd like to hear from others that would like to organize one. Regards, Timothy Dike Webmaster and Editor ModelWarships.com http://www.modelwarships.com/index1.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: IPMS USA Nats Ed, I will at the Nat's and I have no preference on time or place, count me in for what ever works! Rusty, how do I catch up with you for the OJT? Will the training be posted? Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: maeisen@erols.com Subject: Washington DC Area SMMLcon 2001, Sunday May 20 Folks: Well, its one more week until the next Washington, DC area SMMLcon on Sunday, 20 May 2001, 1-3 PM, at Nostalgic Plastic Hobbies in Silver Spring, Maryland. This event will coincide with the Joint Services open house weekend at Andrews Air Force Base, in Washington, DC, so those SMMLies planning to come up to DC to attend the open house can also now attend the SMMLcon, and vice versa! If you have not already done so, please let me know if you think you might attend, so I know how many people to expect. (Please contact me off-list by e-mail.) The proprietor of Nostalgic Plastic, Chris Mikesh, is kindly offering special discounts on ship-related items to those attending the SMMLcon, and is willing to take your order if you are looking for something he normally doesn't carry. Call him at the store at (301) 565-0565 to place your order now, so it arrives in time for the SMMLcon. Store hours are M-F: 5-9pm; Sat: 10-6pm; Sun: Noon-5pm. Their web address is: www.nostalgicplastic.com Nostalgic Plastic is located at 2425 Linden Lane, Silver Spring, Maryland.It is about 5 minutes south of the DC beltway. To get there, take the DC Beltway (I-495) to Silver Spring, and exit at Georgia Avenue SOUTH. Merge onto Georgia Avenue, continue south for less than a minute, pass the stop light at Seminary Place, continue straigh another hundred feet or so, then turn right at the second light (i.e. the next light) onto Seminary Road (do not be confused by the sign for Columbia Blvd; the right turn at the second light is indeed Seminary Road). Go down Seminary Road a minute or so, and continue straight onto Linden Lane when Seminary Road veers off to the left at the elementary school. Continue down Linden Lane a minute or so more until you get to the strip mall on the right, and pull into the parking lot there. Nostalgic Plastic is located at 2425 Linden Lane, and Nostalgic Plastic Automotive, where we will be meeting, is located at 2417 Linden Lane. If you find yourself going over an overpass and at the Walter Reade Army Medical Clinic Annex, you've gone too far by a few hundred feet. If you get lost, you can call the store at (301)565-0565, and they should be able to help you with directions. Hope to see you on May 20! Mike E -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume