Subject: SMML VOL 1249 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:29:51 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Takao and Atago 5/4 2: First Ships/Eagle models 3: CNAV SACKVILLE 4: Mogami class notes 5: Rusty and his bikini 6: Re: to various posts 7: A Loose Cannon 8: Re: HMCS Sackville (Flower conversions) 9: Re: HMS AGINCOURT 10: Re: HMS Agincourt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: Re: Chicago and my vote 2: Re: OJT judges meeting at the Nats and a request 3: Re: Chicago NATS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Gernot Hassenpflug Subject: Takao and Atago 5/4 Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, Heavy Cruisers of the Takao Class (Japanese Navy Vessels Photo Collection, Vol.10, published by Kojinsha, edited from various 'Maru' issues) P38-44: History and Evolution of Takao and Atago by diagrams (japanese text: Mr. Higashi Seiji) (drawings: Mr. Ishibashi Takao) Further increases in the AA fit during wartime Diagram 3 shows Takao as in April 1944, and some wartime changes can be discerned. The light AA was strengthened by the placement of two triple 25mm AA around the aft auxiliary control position, while the bridge 13mm twins and been replaced by twin 25mm machine guns. However, no marked increase is visible. Radar was fitted, in the form of a Type 21 air search set on the fore mast, and two Type 22 surface search sets on the top of the bridge next to the 6m rangefinder. A radar room was built at the middle level of the fore mast. The DF loop antenna was moved from the foremast to the roof of the compass bridge. At around this time, the compass bridge roof became an anti-air command position and wind-break bulwarks were erected around it and around the front of the compass bridge. Also, to prevent flooding, a large number of portholes was blanked over. This work was probably carried out in conjunction with the battle damage repairs at the end of 1944, or it has been suggested that perhaps parts of it were carried out before this time. Diagram 4 shows Takao at the end of June 1944, showing the emergency increase in AA armament and radar fits, etc., following the Battle of the Mariana Sea [Philippine Sea]. Compared to the previous diagram, four more triple 25mm mountings have been added around the aft funnel and the aft deck, for a total of six mounts. The existing six twin mounts were kept, and apart from these 30 single mounts were placed at various positions around the ship. It is said that just after the Mariana Sea battle, the increased light AA fitted was 4 triple and about 20 single mounts. Additionally, a Type 13 air-search radar was fitted to the foremast. Atago is said to have had about the same number of light AA at this stage, but her single 25mm appear to have numbered 24. Atago was sunk on 23 October 1944 in the Palawan Passage on her way to the Battle of the Philippine Sea [Leyte Gulf] by four torpedos from the submarine USS Darter. Her appearance at the time of her sinking is thought to have been the same as Takao in Diagram 4. Takao too was struck by two torpedos from Darter, but narrowly averted sinking and managed to return. She headed for Singapore where she was moored following emergency repairs, and disabled in an attack by the British midget submarine XE-3 in July 1945. Her bottom was damaged but Takao was not sunk. After the war she was ceded to the British and sunk in the Malacca Straits on 21 October 1946. Hi all, Thank you Gernot for yet another great translation job. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Clements Subject: First Ships/Eagle models Dave Ward wrote: >> My first warship was the Airfix HMS Cossack, I also remember making several EAGLE ( 1/1200?) waterline models of destroyers must be around 1966, anyone else remember these? << Yes, I do very well. Like Dave, my first model ship was the Airfix Cossack, followed, I think by the Victorious. I too had a collection of the Eagle 1/1200 kits, just about all in the range, which must have been in the very early 60's. How sad to think that after a while I shot them all up with my Britains 4.7" naval gun and 8" howitzer (now who remembers those?). For those who don't, they fired metal shells, in the case of the howitzer from a spring loaded cartridge so you could work the breech like the real thing. The skirting board in my bedroom had little paint left from the impact of these missiles after a while. The very first ship model I possessed was a card and balsa model of HMS Dido made by my father, who had seen her, and many other RN ships, in the Mediterranean off North Africa and Italy. The highlight of those early days though was being in my local corner shop, that sold Airfix kits, when the new kit of the Hood was delivered, and buying it almost straight out of the van. It set a new standard for its time and I then worked my way through all the Airfix releases, stopping when I went to university, and only really starting again with the release of the first of the 1/700 waterline series. The trouble is when you've lived through those leans years of so few ship kits in the shops, that you can't get out of the habit of buying everything you see - at least that's my excuse. The other one is that I'm buying all these 1/400 and larger scale kits for when I retire and can't see so well! John Clements -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "David Ian Moore" Subject: CNAV SACKVILLE Bob Pearson In 1982 Sackville was a CNAV Canadian NAvy Auxiliary Vessel Their colors are Light Grey 501-106 approx FS 36463 with white trim and Black hulls. Decks now are brick red but Sackvilles at that time were Dark Grey non slip. Regards Ian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Gernot Hassenpflug Subject: Mogami class notes In response to Henry Chen's question in SMML VOL.1247, regarding the accuracy of the bridges of the Mogami class waterline models in 1:700 scale, here is a translation from Model Art No.360 (Drawings of Imperial Japanese Naval Vessels 2). The size of the bridge is not mentioned, so for lack of other evidence I suggest that it is correct. I agree, it seems very small indeed! P48, Mogami 1944. About the Kit: Tamiya WL Series No.7 (500 yen) Molds for Mogami's unique appearance as an aircraft-cruiser.Unfortunately, after production of the kit several photos and references have become available which give a quite different impression. Firstly, there is the fairly different flightdeck, but this can be built up quite easily with 0.5mm plasticard. Then, the machine gun platform in front of hte bridge is of the qrong shape, as is the base of the bridge. Both of these can be corrected with 0.3mm plasticard. Further, the supports at the rear of the bridge should be added, also the bulwarks to the AA command position on the roof and the wind shields at the front of the compass bridge. The machine gun fire control position befroe the bridge should be attachd slightly more to the left. (maybe this means when seen from the front, on the accompnying diagrams, the top view shows the position mounted slightly to starboard - G.H.) In addition to the three twin 20cm turrets and four twin 12.7cm HA guns there were also 14 triple 25mm mounts (sides of Number 3 turret, front of bridge, fore and aft sides of funnel, sides of aft mast, sides of aircraft deck, aft end of flight deck) and 18 single 25mm mountings. Among these, the tw mounts at the sides of the flight deck should be offset as shown in the diagram. ( the positions of some of the 25mm mounts givne above do not agree too well with those given in the diagrams - G.H.) P48, Mikuma 1941 , About hte Kit: WL Series, not marketed One of the seven wonders of the WL series is that although all that would have been needed is to put the parts into a box and sell them, this is the only one of the 18 IJN heavy cruisers that has not been marketed! Previously, since two turrets had originally been removed from the kit of her sistership Mogami, either a combination of the Mogami with the turrets of the Suzuya, or else a conversion from the Suzuya woudl have been necessary, but lately, maybe as a labor-saving device, the Mogami kit has bee nsold with all five turrets, so practically the Mikuma has been available. Mikuma and Mogami were both of the early-type build, where the boiler air intakes stuck up in front of the bridge. In the Suzuya, these were moved to the side of the bridge, and the front was flattened, giving a more dauntless appearnce. At Midway, Mikuma was the same as at the outbreak of the war, with two twin 13mm machine gunes in front ofhhte bridge, and foru twin 25mm mounts at the sides of the funnel fore and aft. I would like to point out that corrections to the bow shape and the replacement or detailing of small parts is desirable. Lastly, the tripod supports for the rear bridge can be made by piercing from the rangefinder to the bottom levels with a pin vice and inserting a 1mm diameter plastic rod. It is no big deal to leave this out though (I submit that the motes given here are a minimum only - G.H.) P49, Suzuya 1944, About the Kit: Tamiya WL Series No.3 (500 yen) Part of the first batch of memorial WL Series molds, this was the first supervised by Tamiya. Although almost 20 years old, this model can still hold its own today, based as it is on official plans. However, as mold-making technology as advanced considerably since then, there are various point that could do with improvement. Firstly, the double curve of the bow shape leaves something to be desired. One way of correcting this satisfactorily is to sand off a thin section of the bow area, glue on a 1mm thin strip of plasticard and file it to the right shape. Then, the knuckle of the bulge is too deep. This can be corrected with 0.3mm plasticard, which should also be used in place of the bottom of the hull (the waterline part - G.H.), and the groove filled in with putty.. The kit depicts the Suzuya in her final configuration, but there are a few errrors in the machine gun layout. The triple 25mm mounts at the side of Munber 3 turret should be mounted in octagonal mounts, which can be made of plasticard, at middle level at the sides of the aft auxiliary control position. Furthermore, the kit's four triple machine guns around the funnels should be replaced by twins. The foremast holds a Type 21 radar, the mast top angles aft while bulwarks for the bridge roof, which became the AA control postion, are needed. P50 Kumano 1941, Tamiya WL Series No.19 (500 yen) Although the kit purports to show the Kumano during her configuration as a light cruiser, the hull has the bulges added during her conversion to heavy cruiser, so these would have to be removed. Then, as the hull is too high in the water, the lower hull (waterline piece - G.H.) should be replaced with 0.3mm plasticard, and the knuckleline recreated by filling in with putty where the bulges had been removed. Also, the incorrect bow's double curvature can be corrected by sanding and replacing with plasticard and shaping.. The triple 15.5cm turrets, twin 12.7cm HA guns, 13mm and 25mm machine guns can be taken from Pitroad sets, as should boats to replace the Tamiya ones, and extra davits should be fitted. Searchlights and fire-control equipment can be replaced, other small parts like paravanes and reels added, and finally the raplacement of theforemast with one made of brass will make a nice representation of the Mogami class as completed. See notes on Suzuya for building Kumano as a heavy cruiser. Respectfully, G.H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Rusty and his bikini >> I will be in Chicago this year and my preference for a meeting space is next to the pool even though Caroline will not be there in that yellow bikini. Do you think Rusty will wear his? << Not if you want to keep everyone's lunch down! Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. "That's mighty bold talk for a one eyed fat man." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: to various posts Re: John Rule / "Agincourt" You are right John that there was only one steam ship HMS "Agincourt" belonging to Royal Navy,but there were at least two other ships of this name in use at that time. One was doing frequent trips between England,Australia and Canada during 1859-62 period carrying good and emigrants. Her name appears often in journals of first generation Australians. I am still not sure if it did have any armament or auxiliary steam engine because all descriptions so far describe her as a "sailing ship". Re: Art Nicholson / F.Prasky's ship plans. F.Prasky is well known for his very good quality plans of Austro-Hungarian ships of the WW I period. Apart from "Viribus Unitis" and "Radetzky" he also produced plans of scout cruiser "Helgoland",Danube river gunboats "Maros" "Themes","Birago" and "Brioni" also torpedo boat "98 M" and submarine "U 14". The plans are available from Mr.Prasky himself, I do have his address but it is from 1989 and I am not sure if it's still valid: Friedrich Prasky A-1100 Wien, Feuchterslebengasse 69-71/5 Austria. Hope it helps Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: A Loose Cannon If you would like to read about the devastating affect of a loose cannon, read Victor Hugo's book entitled "Ninety Three", the section called "An Imprisoned Thunderstorm". Almost as bad as a vindictive ex-wife. Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Chris Preston" Subject: Re: HMCS Sackville (Flower conversions) Greetings All, Bob Pearson asked what the current colour scheme of HMCS SACKVILLE is. As of 1997, the last time I was in Halifax, N.S., she was wearing overall white, with several light blue panels on the hull, and blue panel on the superstructure, and funnel. I've attached four photos I took of her, in 1997, and have approximately 20 more which I can send via Canada Post. Let me know if this helps, and you're interested in the rest. Cheers, Chris Preston, Victoria, B.C -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: HMS AGINCOURT The postings in SMML 1247 and 1248 sent me scurrying to my reference library. It would appear at first glance that the ship under discussion must be the one launched in 1865 although the statement that she had one thin funnel is puzzling. Certainly the 1865 AGINCOURT had two funnels although these were telescopic and in some pictures, particularly when carrying sail, would not be all that visible although would have shown up on drawings. The plans dated 1844 may have been early concept drawings but it is interesting to note that AGINCOURT was originally going to be named CAPTAIN and if the name was applied to the drawing in 1844 (predating the first ironclads by about fourteen years) it would certainly not have been AGINCOURT. Also with the ship being laid down in 1861, it shows a very long gestation period. It was not uncommon to order a ship under one name and launch it under another and the plans referred to might well have been of an earlier ship which later served under another name. I can find no reference, however, to a ship of this period being named AGINCOURT at time of order. The name CAPTAIN was used later for another ship in 1969, one that sank shortly after completion under disastrous circumstances in a heavy gale on Sep 6th 1869 due to lack of stability. AGINCOURT, her sister MINOTAUR and near-sister NORTHUMBERLAND, were the largest single screw warships ever built. They could achieve only about 9.5 knots under sail alone, but 14.5 under power. The screw could only be disconnected, not lifted out of the water as on early steam warships, so this must have created some drag under sail. They were also unique in having five masts, fore, second, main, fourth and mizzen. The second and fourth were removed during their refits, NORTHUMBERLAND in 1875 and the other pair in 1893. Their careers were not particularly eventful although their imposing appearance made them popular as flagships. AGINCOURT was paid off in reserve at Portsmouth 1889-93 and then became the training ship BOSCAWEN III at Portland until 1905 when she was transferred to Harwich and renamed GANGES II, also training. In 1909 she was stripped and converted to a coal hulk at Sheerness in which capacity she served until about 1960 when she was sold for scrap. MINOTAUR had a similar career but was not hulked and was sold for scrap in 1922 while NORTHUMBERLAND served as a coal hulk from 1909 to 1928 before disposal. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "David Griffith" Subject: Re: HMS Agincourt >> About a week ago, I received photographic copies of the original builders plans held by the National Maritime Museum in the UK on a ship named AGINCOURT. The plan set was extensive, including lines, GA's, etc... a scratchbuilder's dream set. The AGINCOURT plans are dated as Chatham in 1844, with annotations dated 1869, and a plan of the rig dated 1894. The ship is an early steamship, single screw, with four large bore cannon/rifles - two mounted on the poop and two on the forecastle. She has a tall thin funnel and can obviously be fitted with sails. She looks a bit like WARRIOR. A very cool set of plans!!!! << Dear Kerry, Further to John Rule's comments on the ironclad HMS Agincourt, I have consulted Conway's History of the Ship "Steam, Steel and Shellfire" (Conway Maritime Press 1992) and The Last Sailing Battlefleet, by Lambert (Conway Maritime Press 1991). The Agincourt he mentioned was, I think, a member of either the Achilles or Minotaur classes, I'm not sure which. If she was a sister of the Achilles she had a blunt ram bow and a rounded stern, two tall funnels and fully ship rigged with four masts. A photo appears to show 19 gunports per side on a single gun deck. If she was of the Minotaur class, then she was even bigger, 409ft long, two short funnels and five masts with a barquentine rig (three square rigged, two fore and aft). She would have mounted 4x 9" muzzle loading rifles, 24x 7" ditto and 8x 24lb smooth bores. Neither of these descriptions seem to fit your plans, unless they also mounted guns on revolving mountings on the upper decks at some time. After all, ships like this were in service for many years, and there was an enormous amount of change and experimentation going on in the first twenty years of the ironclad era. You mention that the first set of plans is dated 1844, so clearly it cannot relate to either of these classes of ships. However, there was at least one previous HMS Agincourt. This was a 74 gun ship of the line launched in 1817. There is no mention in the book of how long she served for, or whether she was ever fitted with steam engines, but even so it still does not sound like your ship. One thing I can be certain of is that we are not talking about the most interesting HMS Agincourt, a dreadnought built originally for Argentina, to Argentine specifications, and taken over by the Royal Navy in 1914. She mounted an incredible 14x 12" guns in turrets that were named for the days of the week, had inadequate compartmentalisation, in order that the crew could move around easily, and was so luxuriously fitted out that she got the nickname "Gin Palace"! She fought at Jutland, survived the recoil of her guns and luckily escaped being hit, because if she had she would probably have gone down like a lead brick! Very interested to hear if you track down any more info on your mystery ship. Regards, David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Chicago and my vote If you guys will look at the seminars and events schedule on the 2001 web site, you'll see that the IPMS/USA judges will be holding a "what judges look for" seminar. For those of you want answers to your judging questions personally this would be a great hour to spend at the Nats. I look forward to meeting you all there. About the SMML get together. I'm not going to vote because I'm going to be pretty busy at different times. So my attending the SMML get together will be doubtful. That's why I haven't been to any of the get SMML togethers as of yet. However, if I'm not doing any of the IPMS meeting stuff or giving our bid for the 2003 Nationals, I'll be there. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. You can now pay using your Visa / MasterCard http://okclive.com/flagship/ "That's mighty bold talk for a one eyed fat man" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: OJT judges meeting at the Nats and a request >> Rusty, how do I catch up with you for the OJT? Will the training be posted? << Darren, Ken Robert (the Head judge) has decided not to have a formal OJT meeting this year. He's decided to have everyone who wants to be a judge and IPMS judges alike at the regular judges meeting. If it's not posted on the IPMS/USA web site, it will certainly be posted when you get to the Nats. If you don't see it posted, find Aris Pappas or Ken Robert and will help you out. At the judges meeting the Head judge will send everybody over to their respective Head category judges. I'll make a list of everyone there and assign teams at that time. I look forward to meeting you then. As long as I'm on the subject of judges and the Nats. I am in particular need of judges who can judge the sailing vessels categories. Every year I always have trouble finding judges who really know sailing vessels. So if you know sailing vessels and would be willing to judge those categories, be sure and tell me. Also, if you want to learn how to judge those categories as an OJT, be sure and let me know as well. I want to begin expanding our sailing vessels judges so it's not so tough to assign teams every year for those categories. Rusty White Head IPMS/USA ship judge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: DRPREUL@aol.com Subject: Re: Chicago NATS Hi All, I will be at the IPMS Nats. I will be delivering a model to one of my clients who lives in Wisconsin. We'll meet in Chicago. Please inform me where and when our group will get together. I'm looking forward to meeting and talking to all of you. See You There Don Preul.....J&D Productions.....Annapolis, Md.....www.jdproduct.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume