Subject: SMML VOL 1251 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 00:44:21 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: HMS Agincourt 2: need 1/350 6" gun barrels 3: 1/350 Scale USS New Mexico Class? 4: China paint schemes 5: Kamikaze Tactics 6: Re: Swordfish in US Markings 7: Yamato wooden deck colour 8: Greenwich Model Shop? 9: Re: S.M.S. Koenig - Lindberg model 1/350 scale - from SMML #1248 10: HMS Queen Mary 11: Eye witness accounts of the American Civil War Battle of the Ironclads -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: Re: OJT judges meeting at the Nats and a request 2: Re: Sailing vessel judges -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: CORSAIR ARMADA 1/700 WASP? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Fred Bultman" Subject: Re: HMS Agincourt You need to find a copy of the "Black Battlefleet" by Admiral G. A. Ballard and published by the Naval Institute Press. This book has a chapter on Agincourt and her only sister, Minotaur, including many photos. She had two (telescoping) funnels and five masts (as built). In 1889 she was cut down to three masts. Achilles was sistership to Northumberland, not Agincourt (this was the next class). The Agincourt survived as a hulk until 1960. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Drees Joe Subject: need 1/350 6" gun barrels I am building a 1/350 USS Detroit and am looking for replacement 6" gun barrels. They show a definite taper that I have not been able to duplicate. I have seen brass 1/700 barrels for sale. Would using a 1/700 12" gun with a simular profile work? TIA.......Joe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "pwesty" Subject: 1/350 Scale USS New Mexico Class? Hi Does anyone know if there are any good 1/350 scale New Mexico class battleship out there any were. I what to make the make the battleship from my home state Idaho (BB-42). Thanks ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "wblad" Subject: China paint schemes By international treaty all foreign (non-Chinese) naval vessels operating on China's inland rivers were required to be painted buff and white. Only Chinese ships could use gray. When Japan went to war with China in 1937 she repainted her river gunboats gray. The European and US navies continued to use white and buff until after the outbreak of war in December 1941. Just as all navies paint their ships gray but each has a different gray, each navy had its own buff. The Royal Navy called their colour 'Primrose Yellow." Humbrol once made this colour and may still offer it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Kelvin Mok" Subject: Kamikaze Tactics My grown-up son always laugh at me when I watch for the umpteen time the same old WWII combat newsreels with the same rapt attention. Well to each his own jolly. So I refight that war and one thing that always intrigued me is why did the kamikaze pilots attacked the way they did - at a relatively shallow angle and altitude where the shipboard AA gunners had an ideal tracking window through which to shoot them down. Wouldn't it have been a more effective approach for a bomb laden kamikaze plane to come in at wavetop level below the depression angle of the AA defence and where the radar and the defending carrier air patrol would have difficulty spotting them. And the CAP would hesitated to dive too speedily or too steeply at them for fear of overshooting and slamming into the water. The relatively defenceless Japanese flying boats had already learned to hug the wave tops when attacked. The Bismark was doomed when a torpedo hit and jammed her rudder. So why try to hit the well armoured topsides of a capital ship. Wouldn't it have been more effective to smash into the stern to take out the propellers or the rudder, or to hit the unarmoured ship's bow. A crippled ship is as effective a loss of a military asset as sinking one and far less difficult to get a hit. Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: Swordfish in US Markings Re: Swordfish in US Markings, and the continuing saga of the USS Wasp's aircraft complement. Mr. Cammeron is probably correct about these aircraft being "The aircraft in question are probably folded SOC Seagulls rather than Swordfish." I guess that the Fairey Albacores aboard the USS Ranger were also SOCs during the "Torch" operations in North Africa (read humor here). Concerning the aircraft complement of the USS Wasp again, on page 211 of Roger Chesneau's book "Aircraft Carrier's of the World 1914 to the present . . . ", there is an excellent photograph of the Wasp in her "Hornet" camouflage like scheme. On her flight deck are SB2Us and F4F-4s, but the very first aircraft shown has a very strange spine and enlarged tail that looks suspiciously like an F2B. Any thoughts here on what it really is? In Mr. Cammeron's comment about "Most CVEs seem to have done aircraft ferry runs during their shakedown cruises. That would explain the deckload on Liscome Bay. Prince William operated as a ferry carrier most of the war, as did Barnes. Altamaha did a tour as an ASW carrier in early 1944, but for most of her service served as a ferry or replenishment carrier.", these actions were caused by the USN's senior staff's lack of confidence of operating the CVEs with the fast carrier Task Forces in their planned island hopping campaign. Where he states: "Also, the squadron assignments and numbers listed in the Terzibaschitsch works are open to question as there is no source cited for them.", Yerzibaschitsch does cite his sources on page 192. It is a sad state of affairs when a very accomplished author such as Mr. Terzibaschitsch's credibility is called into question because he only gives a very annotated Bibliography. Concerning the Wasp's compliment saga, at the site: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/dafs/CV/cv7.html we are able to find the following information. "To prepare to strengthen the American Navy in the Pacific, Wasp was hurried back to the United States for alterations and repairs at the Norfolk Navy Yard. During the carrier's stay in the Tidewater region, Capt. Reeves--who had been promoted to flag rank--was relieved by Capt. Forrest P. Sherman on 31 May. Departing Norfolk on 6 June, the last day of the critical Battle of Midway, Wasp sailed with TF 37 which was built around the carrier and the new battleship North Carolina (BB-55) and escorted by Quincy (CA-39) and San Juan (CL-54 ) and a half -dozen destroyers. The group transited the Panama Canal on 10 June, at which time Wasp and her consorts became TF 18, the carrier flying the two-starred flag of Rear Admiral Leigh Noyes. Arriving at San Diego on 19 June, Wasp embarked the remainder of her complement of aircraft, Grumman TBF-1s and Douglas SBD-3s--10 of the former and 12 of the latter conducting their carrier qualification on 22 and 23 June, respectively--the latter replacing the old Vindicators. On 1 July, she sailed for the Tonga Islands as part of the convoy for the five transports that had embarked the 2d Marine Regiment. . . .' "About 1420, the carrier turned into the wind to launch eight fighters and 18 SBD-3s and to recover eight F4F-3s and three SBDs that had been airborne since before noon. The ship rapidly completed the recovery of the 11 planes, she then turned easily to starboard, the ship heeling slightly as the course change was made. The air department at flight quarters, as they had done in earlier operations, worked coolly at refueling and respotting the ship's planes for the afternoon mission. Suddenly, at 1444, a lookout called out, "three torpedoes... three points forward of the starboard beam!" Even in this fine example of specific recorded history at this particular site we can see that inaccuracies can creap in. The recovered eight "F4F-3s" were in fact F4F-4s. A certain amount of lee-way must be afforded the most diligent of historians as they work through their source material. If one takes it in context, and can glean the "tiny pebbles" of error from their efforts without "throwing the baby out with the bath-water," then a relatively "true" account can be arrived at. Some time back I was asked to review a book for The Naval Institute Press. This book covered the early carrier operations of both the Royal Navy and the USN. The authors of the book were well respected authorities on naval operations, and as such, I looked forward to a very enjoyable read. Everything went well until the parts of the book that dealt with the aircraft operations of the Royal Navy carriers and their RAF crews that flew the so-called RN aircraft. The Fleet Air Arm was a direct extension of the RAF during that period, which the authors did not seem to have knowledge of in their book, so, these same authors went on to make some very glaring and serious errors of interpretations about why the aircraft complements aboard RN carriers were, in the authors opinion's, so antiquated. Because of the seriousness of the errors committed to print in a major section of this book, I fealt it more kind to let my disappointments "die in silence" rather than list them all, for there were many to list. Slinging "mud" in a review of a company's or author's work is very easy to do from the "safety" of the keyboard, either electronic, electric, or manual. If anyone has spent the time to actually produce a finished work of their own, either write the manuscript for a published book or to produce the molds of a saleable kit, then those hundreds of hours of efforts must be appreciated in any reviewer's comments. Product reviewers are like "Monday morning quarterbacks" and "air-guitar professionals," they have never flubbed a pass or missed a note of any of their games or concerts. In short, they are quick to pass judgement about what should have been a perfect product, and how glaring an error of omission that those few, those proud, those who actually produce something of their own efforts, have actually accomplished. In closing, I have read a lot about people wanting certain aftermarket products to assemble some new ship model that has just recently come out. There was a time when there was no such thing as aftermarket products. During those halcyon days of the past, people actually had to either "kit-bash" for their spare parts, or they had to scratch-build them. A case in point was when I took two Airfix 1/600 scale HMS Ajax kits and cut their respective hulls so that I could "extend" a single combined hull the approximately three-quarters of an inch that was needed to obtain the necessary length of hull for the HMS Exeter that I was building. The "Leander" class was a British attempt at making an excellent "light" cruiser design from what turned out to be a very expensive "heavy"cruiser design of the "York" class cruisers. The Leanders aslo proved to be expensive ships to produce, so another "rethink" went into a complete reationalisation of the design. With only relatively minor details and reworking of the Leander class' design, the RN came up with their very successful and relatively inexpensive to build Arenthusa class of light cruisers, of which there were quite a few. Returning to the Exeter model that I was building, I used the armament of the Airfix HMS Suffolk to provide the weapons needed for my model, as well as the Walrus the Exeter carried during the River Platte engagement with the Graf Spee. The Exeter model was painted the prerequisite "light grey" that was known at the time, and the finished model looked fairly good for the period. A more modern attempt at the same project would produce a more acceptable representation of the same subject, but the principles are the same today as they were thirty years ago. In closing, we used to have to "scratch-build" our models from very poor quality photographs and sketchy at best reference material because they just did not exist. With the coming of the "electronic age" of the computer and the internet, everyone is now an expert at everything but a thinker of nothing. My current research is into how similar the British "Washington Treaty" cruiser hulls of their County Class heavy cruisers were to the French and Dutch heavy cruisers of the period. Until I can obtain the "lofting" plans of the French and Dutch cruiser hulls, I am only going to contemplate the "scratch-building" of some of these ships in smaller scales such as 1/600 using the very inexpensive Airfix cruiser kits. If anyone who has entered an IPMS or other high-stakes modeling competition lately, the pressure to get the judge's "eye" is very hard. So, has anyone seen a model of the French light cruiser, "Croiseurs de 2ème classe," Gloire with "dazzle" camoflage in 1944? See her at: http://www.warships1.com/FREcl14_Gloire_prt44.jpg and the Airfix Ajax kit could be used as a hull. Or, what about the French "Croiseurs de 1ère classe" Foch Class heavy cruiser? An Indianapolis calss cruiser hull could be the basis for this conversion. Also, the Algérie Class cruisers could be built using the suitably modified Suffolk or Cleavelend or Baltimore Class hulls. In closing, the Dutch DREADNOUGHT PROJECTS Class Battle-Cruiser would be a fairly easy conversion for a "what-if" category for competition. "The rise of Japanese belligerence in the 1930's spurred Dutch concerns about defense of the East Indies. Believing correctly that American and British forces would tie up Japan's battleships, the Dutch decided to pursue a 27,000-ton cruiser-killer design, with the first of three units to commission in 1944. "Specifications evolved for a ship around 26,000 tons standard, Scharnhorst' s nominal tonnage. The two designs indeed looked similar as the Dutch consulted mostly with German designers, with some Italian input as well. "Budget concerns inspired a scaled-back variant (16,000 tons with nine 9.4in guns and 29 knots). This layout had parallels in other navies-Germany's Cruiser P, Italy's Design 770, and Spain's armored cruiser project. But like these foreign designs, the Dutch project lacked balance; more potent than a treaty cruiser, it nonetheless lacked adequate speed and protection. Interest reverted to the larger ship, labeled Design 1047 (28,064 tons standard with nine 11.1in and twelve 4.7in DP guns, three aircraft, and 34 knots). "German designers continued their work until the invasion of 1940 brought the project to a premature end, leaving many of its details uncertain. However, some features are apparent. Dutch records specify a 50-caliber length for the 11.1in guns-different from Scharnhorst's battery-with a probable shell weight of 694 lbs and a range of 46,590 yards at 45° elevation. The dual-purpose guns might have resembled those of the K1 class gunboats or Tjerk Hiddes class destroyers, but records on all these ships remain incomplete." Seen at: http://www.warships1.com/Netherland_battleships.htm Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: jenshb Subject: Yamato wooden deck colour >> Hinoki cypress is VERY pale--almost a warm off-white. << Tamiya makes a colour called "Deck Tan" which I think is coded XF-55. Judging by your description, it shouldn't look far out. I find this colour a nice "off white" for painting canvas seat belts, and other areas that should be "not quite white". This is what Tamiya recommends for the 1:350 Yamato and Musashi decks, but I've always thought they were too pale... Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "DJMartin56" Subject: Greenwich Model Shop? >> I am planning a visit to the UK in early June. Among my normal naval pilgrimages (Portsmouth, Greenwich, H.M.S. Belfast, etc.), I am wondering if anyone knows of any bookstores in the London or South England area that specialize in used books on naval topics? I am already planning to visit Foyles in London for a long awaited haul of new books; the most amazing bookstore in the world! << Last year when we visited the Museum, the model shop on the opposite side to the NMM entrance (and at the tube station end) was derelict - I'm assuming thats the one you mean. I think I made some successful purchases there in the 1970/80s........I've no real idea when it closed, but we did look and double check just in case! Long gone is the time when trundling through London you could find at least half a dozen model shops all selling 1/700 WL kits. Douglas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Re: S.M.S. Koenig - Lindberg model 1/350 scale - from SMML #1248 Tom wrote in SMML 1248 ... >> I have been a lurker to this group for a while and saw the above [S.M.S. Koenig - Lindberg model 1/350 scale] model for sale in my local shop. How accurate is it? Are there aftermarket kits and boks available on the original ship to use as a guide? << Hello Tom: I've not heard of a Lindberg kit of the Konig. Are you sure of the manufacturer? There are models of the SMS Konig and one of her sisters. the Grosser Gefurst produced by the Ukrainian firm ICM. ICM has been making Russian/Soviet armor and esoteric Eastern European aircraft models for several years now. These ship kits are their first foray into ship models. These models are done very well. The deck engraving is very fine and fit is generally very good. There are some seams which need some attention . Generally, this kit is recommended, but perhaps not as a first-time ship kit. Aftermarket brass - the big three [in no particular order - Gold Medal Models, White Ensign Models, and Tom's Modelworks] all produce etched brass sets for these ships. I believe there was a side-by-side comparison of these sets on the modelwarships.com site not too long ago. Additionally, White Ensign makes a resin replacement mast to back-date the model to the pre-Jutland time-frame. There have been several magazine articles written on the constriction of the ICM kit. To my knowledge there has been no dedicated "picture-book" similar to the Classic Warships series of books produced on these ships. One of the problems of photos of late-19th to early-20th century subjects, they're black & white, grainy and high contrast. The detailed photographic history is very small. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Juliet Dearden Subject: HMS Queen Mary I put a request on the website of steelnavy.com for some information on HMS Queen Mary in the Battle of Jutland. I received a response from a Captain Joel Labow who suggested I post my enquiry on your website saying 'There are a number of very erudite WWI RN historians who inhabit that list who ought to be able to help.' I know that it is not a modelling issue but could you please consider my request and decide if it is something for your site. My grandfather was one of very few survivors from the HMS Queen Mary in the Battle of Jutland. (We have a letter written by him describing the sinking of the Queen Mary). I am trying to find out as much as I can about him. I note there is an article by MW Williams in an annual called Warship Vol XX (1996) published by Conway Press. (now out of print). The article describes the experiences of 4 survivors of the HMS Queen Mary and I would really like to get a copy. Would any of your members be able to help? Thank you Juliet Dearden London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Eye witness accounts of the American Civil War Battle of the Ironclads There currently available two sources of eye witnesses accounts as written by crew members of the two ironclads involved. One is on PBS, use AOL Keyword PBS, and then click on "Lincoln's Secret Weapon", which was written by a member of the Union Navy. The other is in a book by Mary Johnston entitled "The Long Roll", which in a section called "The Ironclads" presents an account by an army man who served with the Confederate Navy. I am not sure about the format of "The Long Roll", I think it may be a fact-based novel into which has been worked this battle story. I don't think the narration of the action is a work of fictiion. Enjoy. Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Vincent Mccullough" Subject: Re: OJT judges meeting at the Nats and a request Rusty wrote: >> As long as I'm on the subject of judges and the Nats. I am in particular need of judges who can judge the sailing vessels categories. Every year I always have trouble finding judges who really know sailing vessels. So if you know sailing vessels and would be willing to judge those categories, be sure and tell me. << Rusty, There are some really fine age-of-sail modelers in Chicago, including Tim Riggs, Gus Agustin, Kurt van Damm, and Phil Krol, to name a few. I suspect that if you approached them, they might be willing to judge (or at least a couple of them would). Vince McCullough Nautical Research Guild ("we also do steel") Webmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Sailing vessel judges >> Rusty, you might want to try asking on the Seaways Ship Modeling email list. << Thanks for the tip. Please understand, I'm not desperate or anything like that. It just seems every year getting judges who want to judge the sailing categories is like pulling teeth. Last year we had a pretty good number of these models show up so I would like to have an extra team ready just in case the same happens this year. I just want to be prepared. I know for a fact that there are lots of "age of sail" builders in the Chicago area. I'm just trying to get a few IPMS judges who know sailing vessels to make themselves known to me so I can make notes of you guys. All OJT's who know sailing vessels (and any other types) are welcome as well and will be added to the list. Rusty White IPMS/USA Head Ship Judge "That's mighty bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "WEM" Subject: CORSAIR ARMADA 1/700 WASP? Hi Guys We are looking to stock a few of the Corsair Armada 1/700 WASP kits. However, the U.K./EU VAT-and-Customs inclusive price will be 169.00 Pounds. Post free in the U.K. If anyone would like to place an order, please do so soon as we are ordering up with Mike in the next few days. Just finally released the AS7171 1/700 Aerospatiale Puma (x5) WITH ETCHED BRASS AS7220 1/700 MDD 500 (Loach)/ OH-6 Cayuse (x5) WITH ETCHED BRASS and AS 7223 Aerospatiale SA365 Dauphin 2 (x3) WITH ETCHED BRASS All at 4.22 Pounds per bag. Taking orders for PE 626 1/600 "ULTIMATE" KRIEGSMARINE SET ONE Bismark, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst,Gneisenau 16.13 Pounds. This massive set is probably our most detailed ever, and should be here within 3 weeks. PE 627 1/600 "ULTIMATE" KRIEGSMARINE SET TWO Generic WW2 German (rails, WW2 KM Doors, Hatches, anchor cable, laddre etc) 11.08 Pounds. PE 633 1/600 "ULTIMATE" KRIEGSMARINE SET THREE All remaining German subjects Price not set.... Thanks!! Caroline Carter White Ensign Models, Gardeners Cottage, Cowarne Court, Ledbury, Herefordshire, HR8 2UF, U.K. Tel : 0870 220 1888 Fax: 0870 220 1786 Home Page for WEM http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume