Subject: SMML VOL 1253 Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:49:38 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Eye witness accounts of the American Civil War Battle of the Ironclads 2: Re: Swordfish in US Markings 3: Greenwich Model Shop 4: Rurik II and confusion with terms 5: Rod Dauteuil -- Please contact me! 6: Re: Modelkits of French cruiser "Gloire" 7: Re: China paint schemes 8: Gloire(ious) Coincidences 9: Pearl Harbor - A Film That Will Live In Infamy ... 10: For Bob Steinbrunn re: USS Kidd Construction article 11: Gloire 12: Re: bookstores in London 13: HMS Black Prince or Bellona -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Jesse Sublett Subject: Eye witness accounts of the American Civil War Battle of the Ironclads There are other accounts of the Monitor and Virginia battle. There's an excellent book called The Monitor Chronicles, published by the Mariners Museum, which compiles letters from George S. Geer, a sailor aboard USS Monitor, to his wife. The book also contains a chronicle of the contemporary efforts to salvage the Monitor shipwreck site, with a foreword written by the excellent historian William C. Davis. As you probably know, Paymaster Keeler's account was published in 1964, titled Aboard the USS Monitor: 1862. There's also War, Technology and Experience aboard the USS Monitor, by David Mindell, which cites numerous other eye witness accounts, including Worden's and Greene's. Portions of other accounts can also be found in Official Reocrds of the Union and Confederate Navies in the War of the Rebellion, volume 7, which begins on March 9, 1862. Volume 6 ends on March 8, but there are some March 8 accounts in volume 7, also. Various accounts are also cited in Battles & Leaders of the Civil War. Jesse Sublett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Swordfish in US Markings Harold: Why would the USN want to operate an 18 Knot CVE with a fast carrier group capable of 30 Knots? If you look at the task organization and composition of the Pacific Fleet Service Squadrons in 1944-45, there were many, many CVEs assigned as Replenishment CVEs - they carried replacement aircraft for TF-58/38. Many other CVEs transported USAF/USN/USMC/RAF aircraft from country to country. A large number of RN CVEs operated with the US Pacific Fleet doing this. You might read W. T. y'Blood's 'Little Giants' for descriptions of both the Transport CVEs and the Replenishment CVEs. As for your comments about Terzibaschitsch's sources, including the ones in his Aircraft Carriers of the US Navy, which ones tie a Composite Squadron to a CVE? Where did he get his squadron complements? Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "James Morley" Subject: Greenwich Model Shop The model shop in Greenwich closed last year. A sad day (I used to live around the corner) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Rurik II and confusion with terms I do hope that somebody familiar with nautical terms can help me with all those confusing deck names connected specially with ships build during 1890 -1905 period. Let's just look at "Rurik" II :the ship has two levels,the upper one extending up to rear 8inch secondary turrets and lower one from rear 8" to the stern. Now the upper level was called in Russian "paluba baka" which (IMO) would translate as "forecastle deck", the lower one was called "vierchnaja paluba" which would translate as "top deck" or "upper deck". That is relatively simple but than,in the cases of other ships we have "battery decks", "boat decks", "flying decks", "quarter decks", could somebody please explain all those terms to me as clearly and simply as possible?? Now as to the "Rurik's" decks. I also have a small archive on this ship and from the photos I can say that "Rurik's" upper deck (see above) was certainly planked but at the aft end of the deck there was a series of overlayed (in almost semicircular fashion) strips of either metal or linolium (this feature is more easily shown than explain). One of the photos show the bridge of the ship (up to forward 8inch turrets) and from this it can be seen that forecastle deck is also planked at least up to the forward secondary 8inch turrets level, semicircular strips are present here also and they seems to start somewhere forward of the bridge and carry on on both sides of the forward superstructure as far as 8 inch turrets. What is the covering of the forecastle deck from then on I have no photographic evidence for. Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Les Dorr Jr." Subject: Rod Dauteuil -- Please contact me! Rod: Can you contact me with a different e-mail address? My reply to you about the items for sale keeps bouncing from your provider. Les "Um Tut Sut? Sure, why not?." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: Modelkits of French cruiser "Gloire" Dear Jens, There is an excellent 1/700 scale sister to "Gloire" in the form of the "Georges Leygues" in her 1944 refit as was the "Gloire" in the dazzle-scheme. WSW - Modellbauversand, B-Resina, at: http://warship.simplenet.com/WSW.htm can show you a complete listing for this company. The sells for $ 55.73, but the detail work seems to warrant the models cost. The other ships of this class were the La Galissonničre, Jean de Vienne, Marseillaise, Gloire, and Montcalm, and, you can look at this amazing kit at: http://warship.simplenet.com/Leygues.htm WSW also does a French "Le Terrible" French Destroyer during 1945 for $30.17. This same company's new French Battlecruiser "Strasbourg" can be seen at http://warship.simplenet.com/images/WSWStrasbourg/Strasbourg294.JPG for only $65.96. Also for the Fracophiles out there, there is the "Le Triomphant" French Destroyer, 1943, for $30.17. Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: China paint schemes >> You are correct about the paint schemes "wblad" but if I remember it correctly the question was about SMS "Scharnhorst" and SMS "Gneisenau" from Coronel and Falklands battle of WW I. All my photos of the ships and JSC cardboard model of the SMS "Scharnhorst" show both ships in "buff and white" camouflage scheme. It is very probable that they were repainted at the outbreak of the war but so far I can't find any proof that it had happened. << All ships of the Imperial German Navy were painted in the wartime color scheme #9 on the eve of the war, literally days before war was declared. This includes the ships abroad. I have found evidence of this while reading the book "Last Gentleman of War" by Lochner, translated by the Lindauer's. In it is a description of the Emden being repainted just as the war began. Also, a description of the ship being stripped of all flammable materials, such as the linoleum deck covering. Color scheme #9 consisted of painting the hull from the waterline up to the main deck "Grey". All superstructure, funnels, and mast, up to the top of the funnels, "Light Grey". The funnel caps and mastwork above the funnel height would be a gloss black. The lower hull would be painted in a deep red color. Wood decks were natural teak. The linoleum color was similar to that in all other navies, a deep reddish-brown, although some sources show this to be a dull brownish-black in the IGN???. The "Grey" I believe was Dunkelgrau 51 (RAL 7000) and the "Light Grey" was Hellgrau 50 (RAL 7001). See the Snyder & Short "Kriegsmarine #1" paint chip set, found on their web site @ www.shipcamouflage.com For excellent photos of a great model of the SMS Scharnhorst, there is a new book available thru Articles of War (www.articlesofwar.com) and Christian Schmidt Books (www.christian-schmidt.com) Titled "Schiffsmodelle" by Durr. Lots of color photos of German warship models from both First and Second World Wars. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Gloire(ious) Coincidences Subject: Modelkits of French cruiser "Gloire" Snip >> Funny you should mention this ship - last weekend I was at a friends place for dinner, and he said that he would buy me the kit if I finished it properly in this color scheme. So.....are there any kits at all of this ship? << This is a most odd coincidence. I saw that same dazzling scheme in Anthony Preston's "Cruisers" book, which I got from the library and read last weekend. I meant to write the list then about this, as the only way I can see my way clear to modeling a French ship is to hide it - and that dazzle scheme did it nicely . Kidding, but that did capture my attention, and I would like to model that WW-II cruiser in dazzle ... if a kit's available. I really don't want to start with an Ajax and build the entire superstructure from scratch, so please, let me know if there is a kit of the Gloire or a close (easily converted) cousin ... Thanks Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Pearl Harbor - A Film That Will Live In Infamy ... ... or an entertaining piece of fiction? I've said it before and I'll say it again (to those who object to a film about WWII that isn't "historically accurate"). Lighten up. It's only a movie. A work of fiction that has NO RESPONSIBILITY to tell any "historical facts" with accuracy sufficient to satisfy historians. It's about entertaining millions of people and making millions of dollars. As an aside (this being a modeling list) - this movie will get new people interested in buying and building ship models - which means manufacturers will make more money, and will be able to afford to put out more kits faster ... and cottage industries with thrive, etc. etc. etc. This movie will be ECONOMICALLY GREAT for our hobby. So why pan it before we even see it ... and why (at any time) criticize an admitted work of fiction for not being factual? That's like (pardon me) marrying a woman you love very much - a woman who'd been married before and had two great kids you also loved - then criticizing her on your wedding night for not being a virgin. I mean, we KNOW it's not a documentary, we KNOW it's a work of fiction, we KNOW it has great shots of real planes and real ships (and some bitchin' digitalized models of ships that no longer exist) ... yet we criticize it for not having the original pre-December 7 Arizona to blow up all over again ... C'mon, folks, let's get real here. The whole point of a movie is making money by telling an entertaining story. As noted in the review, Tora (a great flick - watched it again last weekend) tanked at the box office because it had no entertaining story. It was as close to a documentary as you could make a fictional film. So it didn't do much business. Bruckheimer is noted for telling stories that entertain - and make lots of money. He did Crimson Tide (not necessarily accurate, but lots of neat sub shots for modern-day modelers), and made money. He did (I think) Top Gun - no where near accurate, but good lord, aerial shots to die for (if you ignore the way the planes blow up and stop - mid-air - before falling ). And, for naval aircraft modelers, think of all those aggressor and Top Gun aircraft schemes ... We heard all the brouhaha about how the Brits (no offense, guys and gals) got so exercised about U-571 ... seems they did some of this stuff, and wanted credit. But hey, it was a FICTIONAL STORY, not a documentary about who won the Enigma war. Like it or hate it (as a story), it had lots of great shots of things that looked like submarines, and a tugboat that didn't quite look like a destroyer (but still, a ship that could be kit-bashed into a model of that hybrid non-destroyer). I mean, the diorama potential of an S-Boat tricked out like a U-Boat next to a U-Boat ... that's still on my I-wanna list of dioramas to build. So along comes Pearl Harbor. And we read kvetching about: a. There wasn't an Eagle squadron in the Battle of Britain, and somehow, the portrayal of an Eagle squadron then offends the Polish (huh?) and the British. I am sure the film makers, set to earn $200 million plus in the first month of release in the US, are worried about a few Polish and British historians with thin skins. There were American pilots in the Battle of Britain, and there were Eagle Squadrons (before, I believe, Pearl Harbor) ... so whatinhell is wrong with a little license in what is already a FICTIONAL STORY ... b. Doolittle might (might, mind you - nobody knows) be shown as a reluctant hero. It's fiction. And those who really care know the truth ... c. The ships on battleship row being moored 50 yards apart (so the movie-maker can focus in on what happened to each ship, rather than on just the mass of burning, bleeding, sinking ships). This isn't a documentary ... and those aren't real battleships being really sunk by real Japanese planes ... it's an entertaining fiction .... d. How the hero dies ... as if we (ship modelers) care - he was a frickin' Army pilot, f'gawdsake ... and this is a Hollywood movie - heroes who die always take more abuse than your average Arnold Schwhatever Terminator character ... so what? My too-long point is this: 1. This is a work of fiction. Do not judge it by historical accuracy, as that's not what it was made for. There are many great books on the subject that are historical (and they're all back in print, thanks to the movie); there's Tora Tora Tora and some real documentaries - plus the Arizona memorial museum ... 2. This will be good for modeling - it will bring new blood to our hobby, encourage new kits and new after-market and make the manufacturers and vendors we depend upon more fiscally healthy 3. We will get to see lots of ships that are more-or-less accurate; we will have new scenes to diorama-ize if we want 4. If this movie does well, we'll see more Hollywood movies with ships in them 5. We should be careful to criticize movies we haven't seen (how would you like people criticizing your latest model, before it's finished and shown?) ... and we ought to be very careful about criticizing movies that will help our hobby - unless, of course, they stink as entertainment ... IMO Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: For Bob Steinbrunn re: USS Kidd Construction article Hello Bob I've enjoyed your series of articles in _Ships in Scale_ describing your build of the USS Kidd. Using it as inspriration, I've been cplanning on starting one of the Tamiya 1:350 scale Fletchers that are stored in the closet. I've gotten the Tom's square-bridge conversion set. I've been looking at the bulkheads on the Tamiya kit - and compared them with the jumble of detail you included (as described in Part 3 of the article - May/June 2001; Vol XII No 3). They compare unfavorably - the Tamiya bulkhead details are sparse at best. In your opinion, what is the best, A-number-1 reference for the rails, vents, chests, and piping present on the bulkheads of a Fletcher? In Part 1 of your article (Jan/Feb 2001 Vol XII No 1) you included in your list of references the Floating Drydock Fletcher-class Plan Book. Is that the one to buy to get all the bulkhead detail references. Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "larsenal" Subject: Gloire Hello, At the moment there are no kits available of the French cruiser " Gloire " or of any of her sisterships. Of interest, her very particular camouflage was known in the French Navy as Zebra camouflage, or Railway Accident. If everything works as I want, there will be one day a model of this series of ships in the L'Arsenal range of kits. Best regards, Jacques Druel L'Arsenal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Jorma Huuhtanen" Subject: Re: bookstores in London Hi John! The best bookshop (what I know) in London is Motor Books, 33 St Martins Courts. It is very small alley (only pedestrians) on the opposite side of that marvellous Charing Cross Road about 300-400 yards from Foyles to south. Leicester Square underground station is very very near it. Motor Book has in fact two shops in St Martins Court. One is for cars and trains and few yards away is another which is full of books about tanks, airplanes and SHIPS. In Geenwich Nelson Road where Maritime Model was, just across the street is a little bookshop specialized in used and new naval and maritime books (or it was there October 1999 when I was there, but so was Maritime Model also). I also visited (April 1994) G.L. Green in 104 Pitshanger Lane W5, his bookshop was also specialized in secondhand and new naval&maritime books. It was open only wed-sat. 10-17.00, or by appointment. I don´t know if it exists anymore. I used to visit three, four other little bookshops with good selection of naval books in London, but they are all gone now. In north Essex, near Colchester is Barbarossa Books (Zhukov House, 14B Maldon Road, Tiptree). It is primarily mail order bookshop, but customers are welcome, I have not been there but I have ordered books from there few times. It is specialized in military books. While you are in London I think you should also visit Imperial War Museum and Sience Museum (if you already havn´t). They both have a nice collection of shipmodels. IWM has a very large model of Admiral Hipper, models of HMS Hood, HMS Duke of York, HMS Sheffield, a monitor (HMS Roberts or HMS Abercrombie?) etc... . Sience Museum has a very large model of HMS Vanguard, HMS Warspite and many others including very many ocean liners. I wish you will have a nice trip! (and I´m sure you will, all those museums and bookshops, I wish I could be there!) Jorma Huuhtanen Lahti Finland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Russ Smith" Subject: HMS Black Prince or Bellona I'm looking for the portside camouflage pattern in October 1943 for the Black Prince and or the port and starboard for the HMS Bellona during the same time period. If someone knows where I can find a picture or has a web site with one please let me know. Russ Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume