Subject: SMML VOL 1257 Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 11:38:35 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Swordfish in US Markings 2: Re: Pearl Harbor 3: Hansa Brandenburg W 33 4: Models from movies, and curing ignorance 5: Re: VCR Alert Redux 6: Re: If they'd only bombed Hollywood... 7: Re: VCR alert/Squalis/Accuracy 8: Re: If they'd only bombed Hollywood... 9: Re: Washington War Dates 10: Re: Butch O'Hare story 11: Re: The Butch O'Hare story 12: Gloire in zebra camouflage 13: Re: Damage to the Rodney 14: Re: Pearl Harbor Movie 15: Re: Pearl Harbor Film 16: Butch O'Hare story 17: Working with plasticard 18: Re: Working with Plasticard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: A book for sale or swap 2: Re: FLETCHER class DD deckhouse/bulkhead detail reference -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: Swordfish in US Markings Eugene: In your question: "Why would the USN want to operate an 18 Knot CVE with a fast carrier group capable of 30 Knots?", you are correct in your assertion at first blush because of the apparent speed differences. As was shown so apply by "Taffy Three" during the battles around the recapture of the Philippines, ANY carrier group is better than the Best battleships of the world. With your statement about: "As for your comments about Terzibaschitsch's sources, including the ones in his Aircraft Carriers of the US Navy, which ones tie a Composite Squadron to a CVE? Where did he get his squadron complements?", take a look at the sources he quoted in the appended bibliography. You seem to me to be taking issue over the assigned composite squadrons rather than the radar fitments, camouflage schemes, and other items that he is very specific about, why just the attached airgroups? If you wish references on "VC" squadrons and their histories, you can go to this website and see a number of them listed: http://www.vpnavy.org/ as they list the different squadrons from VC-1 to VC-62, and VP-1 to VP-5056. If we are to criticize any author for not giving every single reference that they used, then almost every nonfiction book out there could receive some form of that criticism. On the other hand, should not the current guidelines for "references quoted" be observed for information that is of a significant contribution or quotation be used? From the last classes that I took on Technical Writing and literature, their guidelines were for only those where either a single significant source or a single quotation of note. From the format of Terzibaschitsch's book, there would not necessarily need to be more than just the cursory bibliography information given. In the Naval Institute Press book that I was requested to review; AMERICAN & BRITISH AIRCRAFT CARRIER DEVELOPMENT, 1919 - 1941, by Thomas C. Hone, Norman Friedman, and Mark D. Mandeles, a significant and correct bibliography is given. Unfortunately for all three of these authors, their "quoted sources" were either not consulted adequately, or completely ignored. Besides the obvious errors that I quoted about this book in one of earlier postings, there are more fundamental problems with these author's premises and conclusions. As with your above noted comments about having mixed fleets of fast and slow aircraft carriers, so too were the navies of the world trying to find that perfect mix of either quantity or quality back during the thirties and early forties. From the Royal Navy's own experiences with dive-bombers, they felt that speed and armor were more important than having a significant aircraft complement to drive off the offending enemy aircraft. The USN had a similar problem of working within the Washington Naval Treaties for their own aircraft carrier designs, the Ranger and the Wasp are just two examples of indecisiveness and conflicting design ideas preventing a balanced vessel to meet the needs of combat which had never existed before they were designed. As with their need for destroyers at the beginning of WW-II, the RN needed platforms to carry ANY aircraft to sea to escort their convoy lifelines. America, not needing such lifelines as the British, was more focused on their pre-war "ABDA" commitments to keep the IJN "tied-up" in the Pacific. Unfortunately for the early war allies of the American-British-Dutch-Australians, the IJN had learned that very fast carrier task forces, when allied with their very long range IJN and IJA aviation units, could and did wreck havoc all over the central and south Pacific for almost two years. But as the war turned against the Japanese war efforts, the Kamikaze was well known within the higher circles of the Japanese government to be incapable of stopping the Allied naval blockade that was strangling the life out of Japan's ability to even survive. A really good book to understand the Japanese government's loss of faith in the entire Kamikaze defense of the Japanese Home Islands is David Bergamini's JAPAN'S IMPERIAL CONSPIRARY, How Emperor Hirohito led Japan into war against the West. If Mr. Bergamini's fluency in the Japanese language were not enough to add validity to his assertions made in his book. Unfortunately for those individuals looking for a voluminous bibliography, Mr. Bergamini's sources, until then secret, were prima facia Japanese sources, and as such, this book's contents, which are at times seem to be beyond fiction, have too many intricate details to be nothing less than stunningly accurate reporting. This strangle hold on Japan's nautical lifelines, very similar to those that England suffered from during 1939 to 1943, was made possible because of the Ally's "unrestricted" submarine campaign against ALL Japanese shipping. It is interesting that the Allied War-Crimes Tribunal brought stiff penalties on any Axis naval commander or captain for doing what the Allies did every day of the war. This was a clear case of the victors not only writing the history after the war, but also the selective use of International Maritime and Geneva Convention agreements on submarine warfare and the strategic targeting of non-combatants for aerial bombardment. Be that as it may, the "CVE" issue was really focused on a British requirement for carrier-deck footage over aircraft carrying capability. And, "Taffy Three" would never have had to perform so valiantly as it did against the IJN's fast battleship task group during the Philippines operations of "Bull" Halsey had not fallen for the Japanese "belly talk" ruse of sending its naked carrier group down toward the Philippines in the first place. If those 18 knot CVEs of "Taffy Three" had not been there to pull Halsey's balls out of the fire, the Luzon landing group would have been scattered as the Japanese had intended, and the invasion of the Philippines could have been delayed for as much as six months. And as any student of this period of time will tell you, OPERATION OLYMPIC, the invasion of Kyushu, Japan, would have probably taken place any way for a loss of over one million individuals on both sides of that war. So, what use were the CVEs in the overall strategic sense of that war? These tinker-toy carriers provided the necessary air cover for the British 12-knot convoys for Russia and England. Also, they provided that "full-back" analogy for "Bull" Halsey's foolish flight north for his own self-agrandizement and not his assigned task. Even today, can anyone wonder why Washington was signaling in the clear "WHERE IS HALSEY?" Harold -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Rick Biesik" Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor With much interest I have listened to both sides in the "Pearl Harbor" discussion, for myself I love just about any military (war) movie but at the same time I share similar misgivings as others here do of the artistic license which more then likely will be found in the movie. Also though I can see other members point that "it's entertainment, lighten up" and watch the movie for that and enjoy. Actually we could probably blame Tora, Tora, Tora for this dilemma because if it had not been such a faithful rendition (I know it was full of errors too) of this event in history we wouldn't be have such a easy comparison. In a similar note, it will probably be blasphemy but "one" of my major military interests besides naval conflict is the eastern front in WWII, anyway I watched with at first exhilaration and then horror the trailers and accompanying releases of Stalingrad, supposedly a movie based on a book and actual battle. Another Epic event in history boiled down to a non existent love triangle with a war thrown in for color. I still have not seen the movie and will probably wait for it on video, my girlfriend will watch it (she liked "Private Ryan"and hate it because I'll be dissecting it the whole time we watch it. Anyway where I finally want to go with this is, look at it this way it will give us all the chance to capture the lime light at cocktail parties with our renditions of the actual events which surrounded the attack when ever the movie is brought up.;) Rick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: Hansa Brandenburg W 33 I seek for Hansa Brandenburg W 33īs armament, date of entry into service and for fotos of her and the Heinkel HE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, etc Thanks Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://sites.netscape.net/friedkappes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Models from movies, and curing ignorance The same subject, but back on subject. What are we likely to end up with this time? "Titanic", of course, produced some more models, but also re-releases of older models. I can see Revellogram re-releasing its two Arizonas and Hornet, in new "As seen in Pearl Harbor" boxes. What else? A bunch of planes, certainly, since the story is about pilots. Spitfire, Hurricane, and B-25 get the same treatment. Maybe a two-in-one Hornet/B-25 model. Possibly the Japanese planes, though they are the bad guys in the movie. But I don't really see any new models being produced this time. Actually, I'm surprised these aren't at Wal-mart and Toys R Us already. (Are they?) As for the movie itself, and its potential effect on the knowledge base of the viewers, remember that, as Jodie mentioned, people still believe NASA faked the moon landings. That JFK was killed by any of a myriad of conspirators. That WWII started on 7 December 1941. That women have one more rib than men. That professional wrestling is a sport. That sugar-based cereals can be part of a nutritious breakfast. That Leonardo DiCaprio can act. What we can do is correct people when they're wrong. Write letters to newspapers and magazines, post online and offer to talk in schools and at public events. The cure for ignorance is knowledge, the knowledge inside your head. Joe Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: VCR Alert Redux >> This one seems to have slipped under the radar: NBC (I Think) is doing a movie on the USS Squalus rescue, either this or next Sunday. If I hear more, I will post details. << This Sunday, NBC at 0:00 PM Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Peter Samolinski" Subject: Re: If they'd only bombed Hollywood... "Holly" Wood was attacked - and captured - by the Japanese: see Steven Spielberger's excellent documentary "1941". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Michael Taylor" Subject: Re: VCR alert/Squalis/Accuracy I've seen the ads too. 'Ol Squalis looks remarkably like a Type VIIC!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: DaveRiley1@aol.com Subject: Re: If they'd only bombed Hollywood... >> P.S. Dave: I didn't mean to infere that this was a forum dedicated to naval hisory, just that as a group of people interested in modeling naval subjects and from what I have read, interested in accurately doing so, the general knowledgebase of the members in this subject is somewhat higher than that of the public at large. << Duane Thanks for the response. And I do not disagree that SMML folks have widespread interests. It just seems to me that we are being overrun by movie/cinema critics. I would rather be overun by ship model questions, tips, tricks, how to's and other mundane stuff that helps put a kit together. Dave Riley Portsmouth, RI P.S. I think your decals are terriffic. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Washington War Dates >> Actually the war started in the early thirties in Manchuria, or was it because the Versailles treaty angered Germans? No that was because of Bismarck's campaign against the French years before that, which was because....I got it - Adam should never have nibbled on that apple! << I knew that you will got it in the end!! It's all apple's fault, or is it Eve's or Serpent's ????? Now you got ME all confused!!!!!! >> BTW - the Washington was using a cloaking device stolen from the Romulus by way of a Ferengi trader - so it was actually involved from the start - proof - see Charles Berlitz Philadelphia Experiment << I have been tought that it was "Schleswig-Holstein" which fired on Westerplatte on the early morning of September the 1st,now you are telling me that it was cloaked "Washington"????? Can I quote you on this??? ;-) Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Re: Butch O'Hare story >> Talk about a fictional movie .........jeez's!!! Hey Franklyn, where did you get that clipping abou O'Hare's wartime exploits! Talk about inaccurate. Author John Lundstrum's biography about O'Hare, or his book "The First Team" will tell the actual story. << Oh, I guess shooting down 3 Betty bombers and probably helping to save a lot of lives on the Lexington isn't good enough??? I guess next you'll say they just gave him a Medal of Honor 'cause we needed heroes???? John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: The Butch O'Hare story In response to Jerry Phillips' remarks about the Butch O'Hare story, I say "Move over, Pierre Salinger (he of the theory that a missle brought down that airliner off the Canadian coast a few years back, Pierre got it off the Internet, as did I get the O'Hare story)". I was a little suspicious, because of the flowery phraseology used, but figured that if the story were phony, SMMLers would get on it and clarify it for us. Thanks, Jerry, for so doing. I hope other SMMLers (especially Chicagoans) will contribute something, one way or the other, to this thread. If the story is indeed a hoax, it only adds to my personal perplexity as to why would anyone go to all the trouble to generate and distribute it. What useful purpose is achieved? What advantage has been gained? Gawd, we have so few genuine heroes to-day, why create a false one only to have him/her inevitably destroyed? I dunno. Maybe Hollywood should make a movie about Butch Ohare (should I bite my tongue?) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Gloire in zebra camouflage >> Do you REALLY want to paint the Gloire in that zebra scheme?!? I once suggested that to a listmember who had been zebra-painting a US PT-boat, and was told that I was "a very sick man." << Yes, it's the only way I can build it as a "freebie":) I know, it sounds cheap, but it's the challenge...I would have to finish it before the IPMS Norway Nationals in 2003, which would be late February. Thanks for your advice about reshaping and correcting - doesn't seem to be any insurmountable problems as long as I kow about them beforehand. Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Re: Damage to the Rodney In a word ------ crap -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: wem Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor Movie I was going to stay out of this one, but.... The points made about the general public--including "educated" college students--taking anything from the silver screen and the tube as gospel is, alas, all too true. Therefore, when the producers make a great hoo-hah beforehand about striving to make the most accurate film possible on the subject, there are going to be perhaps even more folks who will believe whatever they see. There HAVE been regimes that have rather successfully used film to shape perceptions of history and lead their masses in unfortunate directions.... Same goes for printed matter. Failing to point out known errors in a book review may salve the author's ego, but it does a disservice to potential readers and buyers who may not have that information. As a professional historian I know all too well the difficulty of undoing or disproving historical errors once they're in print. I've done a lot of book reviews too, and have occasionally been castigated for pointing out errors. So be it, but at least it lets the buyer beware. John Snyder Architectural Historian P.S. Preservation Services Snyder & Short Enterprises White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Michael Bartel Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor Film Just putting in my two cents worth here... I for one have no plans at all to see this film when it is released, not even when it goes to tape. I figure if I want to see something on Pearl Harbor, I will watch my taped episode of PBS' 'The American Experience' on the event, or rent 'Tora, Tora, Tora', or read one of the many excellent books on the subject, or listen to the threads on this site. I tend to agree with others who have posted their opinions that Hollywood today has no clue, even though I also realize that Hollywood's current mentality is just a symptom of a larger problem. Mike Bartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Ed Grune" Subject: Butch O'Hare story Jerry wrote about the Butch O'Hare story >> Talk about a fictional movie .........jeez's!!! Hey Franklyn, where did you get that clipping abou O'Hare's wartime exploits! Talk about inaccurate. Author John Lundstrum's biography about O'Hare, or his book "The First Team" will tell the actual story.<< I think someone needs to give credit for the story, as posted, to Paul Harvey. I heard that story on his "Rest of the Story" radio program. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Mike C" Subject: Working with plasticard Here are some methods that work well for me. For cutting right angles, I use an engineer's scale - basically a metal block with a ruler that slides in a groove set at 90 degreees. You can get those in different sizes through Micro-Mark, or most other places that handle modelling tools. Cut using the outer edge of the scale as a guide and check your angle from both sides of the cut on the inside angle of the square. I have almost never heated plastic to bend it (the exception is plexiglass). It distorts too much. To bend splinter shields as you describe, I pull a strip of plastic through a pinched tweezer - sort of like putting a curl in a package ribbon. It also helps to use the tweezers to put in a series of gradual bends along the radius of the curve to tighten up the arc and relieve any stress in the plastic that would cause a break. If I need a really tightly curved corner, I brush the plastic with liquid cement to allow the plastic to soften. Once most of the cement has evaporated and the surface of the plastic is no longer tacky, I then use tweezers to bend the plastic to the shape I want and tack it in place. When the liquid cement on the strip dries, the curve will harden into the shape you want. You may have to keep an eye on it until it dries thoroughly because the plastic has a "memory" and tries to go back to its original shape while it's soft. Liquid cement also works really well for bending stretched sprue, BTW. If you are making a rail made up of a lot of short sections combined with radius curves, it helps to make the rails slightly taller than you need so you can sand the top edge even when the whole mess is assembled. When building deckhouses, use right angled wedges inside the structure to keep decks and bulkheads perpendicular to each other. I hope this helps some. Mike Czibovic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Alan Simon Subject: Re: Working with Plasticard Need help on different plasticard issue. Attempting to detail Revell's 1/125 U-99 conning tower/wintergarden floor with non-slip surface. Plan is to impress surface details of Model Accessories' 1/72 Brass AFV Steel Plate (Dotted Type) onto 0.010 plasticard. Tried coating plastic with liquid cement, then compressing brass/plasticard sandwich between jaws of wood clamp. Impression was uneven. Have not been able to heat plastic or brass effectively for this purpose. Any suggestions? Alan Simon Atlanta, Ga. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: A book for sale or swap Will anybody be interested in a book "Die Schiffe der deutschen Flotten 1848-1945" by Hans Jurgen Hansen, published by Urbes some time in seventies (no clear date). It is in German, but it's 200 pages are chock full of photos, paintings and drawings of German warships. I got this book second hand and the dust cover is a rather tired condition, the rest of the book is in good condition, no addnotations or missing pages. The book costed me 20 pounds sterling but I am prepared to swap it as well. Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: wem Subject: Re: FLETCHER class DD deckhouse/bulkhead detail reference >> If I went on to buy several more, these next two would be the ones I'd add: Raven, Alan, Fletcher Class Destroyers, Warship Design Histories series, Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD, 1986. (Full of photos and drawings, this book proved essential to this project. Out of print, but available through OOP book dealers on the Internet) Ross, Al, The Destroyer The Sullivans, Anatomy of the Ship series, Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD, 1988. (Full of photos and crisp, clear drawings, this book was also essential to this project since The Sullivans was a sister ship to the Kidd and was configured similarly. Also out of print, but can be found through OOP book dealers) << Well, we don't have Ross in stock at the moment, but we DO have a mint copy of Raven, priced at 55.00 Pounds. John Snyder, TTY White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume