Subject: SMML VOL 1269 Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 06:19:33 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Poland's ORP Warszawa 2: Refueling at Sea 3: Squadron Books 4: Patches / Emblems for Royal Navy 5: USN carrier kit 6: uss missouri flag 7: WEM 1/600 4.5 inch guns 8: Re: Inside MK IX 9: Errata 10: I Stand corrected 11: what makes a good historical movie? 12: Pearl Harbor Aircraft 13: Re: Pearl Harbor Movie 14: Re: R/C Ship Model Web Site 15: Remarks on PH 16: Camouflage problem 17: Pibber MK 2 18: Polling and elementary mathematics 19: Regarding R/C Ship websites 20: Whatcom Museum In Bellingham, WA Call For Models 21: Re: Revell of Germany's 1/72nd scale S-Boat 22: Scharnhorst documentary 23: Re: Missouri's Decks 24: Re: Accuracy of "Pearl Harbor" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: Poland's ORP Warszawa >> Can anyone help with a walkabout of the Polish Kashin Class Destroyer Warszawa. Any help would be very appreciated. << Hi Garry I took pictures of her when she visited Kiel back in 1992. If you are interested, just send me your postal address, and I will send you some copies. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: aandmblevins@att.net Subject: Refueling at Sea >> Another problem was the oiler steaming with the "Hornet" .... a much later development! << Actually, according to Prange in "At Dawn We Slept" the japanese Navy did develop refueling at sea specifically for this mission. The inaccuracy is that they refueled from astern. AL blevins -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: DaveRiley1@aol.com Subject: Squadron Books >> I can say that the CVLs book will include the near-sisters Saipan and Wright, if anyone is interested. << I, for one, am very interested in those two ships - and I appreciate their inclusion in the Squadron CVL book.. There is so little material out there on the immediate-post-war Navy that every little bit helps. Ships like the US Fargo CLs, Worcester CLs, Saipan and Wright CVLs, when and where the last commissioned CVE-55 Casablanca class (other than Thetis Bay) was serving, and the Oregon City CA to name just a few ship types have long been neglected in the ship literature. Little details such as how long wartime paint schemes like MS22 were worn, when the change was made to the large white with black shadow hull numbers, exchange of 40mm for 3 inch AA, removal of cruiser catapults, etc., etc., have long been an interest of mine. I am looking forward to publication of the Squadron CVL book. Keep them coming. Dave Riley Portsmouth, Rhode Island USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Baumbach, Werner" Subject: Patches / Emblems for Royal Navy Hello all, as i am building a couple of RN vessels at the moment, I thought the emblem/coat of arms/or whatever they are called would look nice on the display. Does anybody sell these as patches or as post cards, or is there a comprehensive website, that hat most of the emblems for post war RN? Any hint would be great. Happy modelling Werner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: USN carrier kit Hi people I wonder if anyone on the list can suggest where I might be able to lay my hands on some bits of current USN flight deck uniform (shirts, the vests with built-in life jackets and the helmets) or WW2 USN life jackets (I believe they are known as life preservers among the colonial types....;o)). Such kit seems not to turn up on this side of the pond and the only militaria shop I found in a US naval area (near NAS Oceana last month) did not have any either. Hope someone can help - as it is 1:1, please feel free to post off-list rather than cluttering up SMML. Many thanks Robert Lockie Swindon UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: uss missouri flag >> the flag on the side of the bridge of the uss missouri during the surrender ceremony is not admiral dewys flag and it was not matthew perrys flag. it was the flag flown from the uss arizona on december 7th, they wanted japanese to see that flag where the war started and and on the decks of the uss missouri where the war ended. i saw the flag at the uss arizona museum 5 years ago and when i was at pearl harbor in 1999 it was not there no more. i think it is know at the smithsonian institue. << I believe the person asking was referring to the flag bolted to the bulkhead at the surrender cermonies. Here's the shot of the flag: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s200000/s210644.jpg And I quote: "The framed flag in lower right is that hoisted by Commodore Matthew C. Perry on 14 July 1853, in Yedo (Tokyo) Bay, on his first expedition to negotiate the opening of Japan. It had been brought from its permanent home in Memorial Hall at the U.S. Naval Academy for use during the surrender ceremonies." >> also the missouri's decks were not deck blue during the surrender ceremony the were natural teak decks. << No they were not teak, the decks were still painted 20-B Deck Blue at the surrender. Here's a photo ofthe Japanese delegation onboard Missouri in color: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/ac00001/ac02719.jpg If that's natural teak, then it's the bluest teak i've ever seen. John Sheridan www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: drwells@hogpb.mt.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: WEM 1/600 4.5 inch guns Fellow SMMLlies: I recently received a large number of WEM's 1/600 scale British 4.5" Mk I/Mk III guns. You may recall that Chris Burton and I started the request for these here on SMML back in early 2000. Anyhow, what we finally got is very nice indeed. The detail is excellent, and there is no flash at all. The resin is of excellent quality, with no bubbles or pinholes at all. Once trimmed (the plug from the hole in the mold for pouring the resin will be exceptionally easy to hide) they will be just perfect for my Queen Elizabeth and Renown projects. Thanks to Caroline and all the gang at WEM for turning out another excellent product. David R. Wells who is looking forward to those 5.25 inchers "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Re: Inside MK IX Boatbldr wrote: >> Looking for pictures of the inside of the MKIX main gun shield as carried on many Flowers - would like to detail the inside of the shield as it is open and visible. Can anyone help me out? << Check out the plans from John Lambert. He has a set of detailed drawing for the Mk IX mount as used on Flowers. http://www.john-lambert-plans.com/encom/index.htm Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Errata In one of my recent notes I gave the name of the late David Brown. I should have written, the late David Lyon. I have every reason to believe that David Brown, formerly of the Naval Historical Branch is still alive. On David Lyon, he and I used to research every saturday in the draught room of the National Maritime Museum. The room was closed to the public on saturdays and with he in his office at one end, and I at the far end working usually with "ships covers", both of us used to smoke cigars the entire day. At midday we were joined by the deputy director Phillip Annis, who also used to smoke cigars. Those were the days. The beginning of the end came when David had to have help, in this case it came in the form of a women who immediately proceeded to try and tidy up David's small office. Then she wanted a mirror. Did not enjoy the cigar smoke. Then she started to answer the blasted telephone to outside enquiries. No more dirty jokes. David began to find items in his office because things were a little more organised, and I can tell you that any active researcher can only really be productive when things are in a mess, because in that way you sort of know where things are. I remember on one particular day, David's phone rang and he was unable to find it because of the piles of papers and documents on his desk, on the floor and all over the shelves; the phone could not be found, it was a scene from a film. His biggest published work was the Denny List that took up FOUR volumes. He also compiled a companion book on Thornycroft, This book, which would have run to about eight volumes was completed in draught form, and many hundreds of entries got to page proof stage. I saw them as they came off the press every saturday. There were literally hundreds of warship designs laid out in drawing form along with the relevent technical data The thing was stopped from publication because of the cost, but a friend of mine has copies of the entries. Unfortunately these can never be published or turned over to anybody. A loss, but that happens sometime. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: dlfowler@apple.com Subject: I Stand corrected OK, I'm in Asia but still operating on West coast time. I decided to respond to something before I put my mind in gear. YES, I meant Perry, not Dewey. Just one piece of raw fish too many and I was feeling a bit dewey, if you know what I mean. However, having spoken to the staff historian on board the Missouri, I stand by the reason that it was mounted backwards. Best regards, Duane (If it's Wednesday this must be Taipei) Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: tdrysdal@lri.sjhc.london.on.ca (tdrysdale) Subject: what makes a good historical movie? I have not seen the Pearl Harbour movie although it sounds like a good rental (fast forward is a great feature). I tend to not take any historical movie seriously but I do think that movies can convey a sense of what it might have felt like to be in certain situations and the tensions that might have existed. If they do so then they are successful. For example, two of my favourite naval movies are Sink the Bismark and Das Boot. I can follow the strategy and understand the issues on both sides in Sink the Bismark and the tension is wonderful. However, when Vian's destroyers hassle the Bismark in a night action, one of the destroyers gets obliterated by Bismark's big guns. Although this action is rarely discussed and had little effect on the outcome, I think adding the loss of a destroyer is a pretty big distortion of historical accuracy. Das Boot is regularly cited as the best naval movie of all time. It is based on observations of a U boat veteran but I do not think it represents any particular mission. It even deviates from the book in the final scene. The air raid that decimates the crew minutes after they arrive back in port was a silly addition to a wonderful story. Despite the alterations in history this movie is the incredible for giving an idea of the stress that must have been involved for both sides of the conflict. The initial joy in sinking the allied ships is quickly dissipated when they hear the screaming of men in the water. If Pearl Harbour does not convey any realistic sense of what it must have been like to be there I would view it as a failure. For those that have seen it, what is the portrayal of the Japanese like? I have always felt that the biggest story that is missed in discussions of Pearl Harbour is how brilliant the actual raid was. Granted, they missed a few key targets and could have done better but the logistics and nerve of that mission is truly amazing. To bring a task force of that magnitude from Japan is no easy task and they did not have an easy trip. Also the coordination and skill of the initial attack was never really duplicated by the IJN after that. It is probably a good thing that there was little warning. If a defense could have been mounted, it probably would have resulted in much higher casualties for the Americans. As for modelling, it is back to my Hasegawa Akagi. I just picked this one up (it was on sale and is probably going to be scarce for a while) and it contains one of the new packs of generic IJN parts. I think it is identical to the new Tamiya ones. Is this a new feature?. Lots of extras, a unique looking ship and designated PE from Eduard. Life is good. Cheers, Tom Drysdale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Bill Rowe Subject: Pearl Harbor Aircraft At least on Naval Aircraft from Pearl Harbor remains, a JRS-1. It is located at NSAM's Garber facility. Here is the link: http://www.nasm.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/sikorJRS.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Michael471295@cs.com Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor Movie Saw the movie Sunday. My family and I enjoyed it very much. I am particularly impressed at the job they did including the elements of the Blitz, and the Doolittle raid, in with Pearl Harbor. That's a big challenge to have all three done well in one movie. As for the Love interest of the story, despite what I have read in the papers from critics, I thought it was done very well. And, its good to see Ben Aflak's character as a completely "upright" guy with his head screwed on straight. We need more movies like that. Best of all, the movie got my father in law talking about his experiences when he was stationed in the Philippines in 1944-45. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SMAtouche@aol.com Subject: Re: R/C Ship Model Web Site Clem and Shane. Try the following site for R/C modelers. http://members.aol.com/wmunderway/home.htm Paul Shay -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Remarks on PH From: Ned Barnett >> 3. Yes, there were modern US warships in Pearl Harbor for many of the live-action scenes; but yes, they had great models, and their Oklahoma (or was it West Virginia) that turned turtle was remarkable. Very effective. << The capsizing scenes were a great disappointment to me. Every published account of that even refers to the almost-gentle, stately, and slow roll over (un accompanied by strafing fire too intense had every Zero in the First Air Fleet been right on top of her). There are numerous accounts of sailors simply walking over the hull as she rolled. She certainly did not come up so far out of the water to roll, and her masts, which did not collapse as she rolled, preventer her from rolling all the way over. Not nearly as dramatic as the filmed version, of course. OTOH, the scenes done on the INSIDE were very good and showed the panic, the confusion, and the flooding very well. >> 5. The flying aircraft were, almost without exception, remarkable to the Nth degree. And the Zero fighters really looked like Zeros, and not T-6 Texans in drag. The P-40s were superb, and the overall impact of the aerial stuff was mind-blowing. << Well, neither the P-40s nor the B-25s were the right models, but the scenes certainly stimulated adrenaline. The combat over Pearl, standing in for the Taylor/Welch team, was ridiculous. The two pilots managed to drive off the whole Japanese force by knocking down a few Zeros while running away from them. The "chicken" scene which accounted for several of those kills was just plain stupid ("plane" stupid?). The B-25s did not stay in a group, and the "CAS" run near the end was, if dramatic, silly. In order to save fuel, all the guns had already been tossed. >> 7. the actress was a knock-out, << Agreed. >> 9. The lead characters not only got into the air, shot down 7 Japanese Zero fighters (several by making them ... naw, I won't say, it'll spoil it for you), then gave blood at the Navy hospital then were on the turned-turtle battleship helping to rescue trapped sailors, all in one single day (why they didn't stand by in their cockpits in case the Japanese came back is beyond me ...) (pickin' those nits - sorry) << This sequence really wrecks some of the drama for me. the last place those two pilots would have been was on the hull of the oklahoma with air hammers. OTOH, the giving blood and storing in Coke bottles was very accurate. Me, I enjoyed it but lamented what it wasn't. All in all, a mixed bag. Steve Allen BTW, none of my comments was aimed at >> Ned the movie critic << Rather, his post was simply a convenient starting point. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Ramires, Filipe C" Subject: Camouflage problem Hello list I had a few problems with camouflage schemes along my ship modeller life. I have bought HMS Ariadne (Matchbox) a few time ago and now I have the polish book referred to this class of minelayer-cruisers. It is a very good source for any modeller and I highly recommend it!!! Now the problem is this. The camouflages profiles only show us the port and starboard sides of the ships. They are very useful indeed but what about the bow and stern plans. In other words, for example, what about front structures like the face of bridge or other structures that are square and show sides both to the stern and bow of the ship. The Ariadne problem is that she have different colours in the same zone of the ship but in the different sides of the same. What should I do? How do you define the union between the colours if you practically don't have information about it? These is an old problem for me and I keep delaying construction of camouflage ships due to this. Any comments??? Thanks in advance!!! Regards. Filipe C. Ramires Colchester, UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Clem Jensen" Subject: Pibber MK 2 This is an RC boat request. I've built a 1/12 scale jet driven PBR MK 2 and need some assistance as to how to raise and lower the reverse buckets with servos. An e mail response would be appreciated. Clem Jensen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Polling and elementary mathematics Steve, Methinks FSM's poll allowed multiple choice, e.g. I build ships primarily, but also build aircraft, so I would show up twice. Therefore according to this poll 84% of all modelers build aircraft, 48% build armor, and there is some overlap between these groups. I am certain there are very few modelers who build one type of model exclusively. From: SteveWiper@aol.com (Message edited down by me) >> Here is some information collected by Fine Scale Modeler. This is a list of different types of modelers and their percentages. Aircraft 84% Armor 48% Dioramas 37% Ships 35% Automobiles 32% Figures 26% Spacecraft 21% Boats 19% Racing Cars 18% Fantasy Models 17% Trucks 13% Motorcycles 09% Total 359%? Now I thought that when you conducted a pole you would want to know what 100% of all modelers were interested in. What's up with 359%? << And to Ray Boorman, 1 to _any_ number is still one. Bad math is a sore point with me, for I am: Joe Poutre, aka The Mad Mathematician -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Regarding R/C Ship websites Clem in SMML #1268 wanted info on sites for radio control modeling. One of the best is Kurt Greiner's Warship Models Underway site at www.warshipmodelsunderway.com or type in "warship models underway" in a search engine. There are shots of ship models in their natural element (underway) and the photography is excellent. The emphasis is on full scale and highly detailed warship replicas. You'll also find a bulletin board where R/C modelers can share ideas and bounce questions off each other. These generally have application regardless of the subject you're working on. There's also find a link to his SeaPhoto company should you need research photos of ships. Kurt is a ship modeler and top-notch maritime photographer, so he knows exactly what the ship modeler needs in respect to good ship photography. this is one you'll want to bookmark. Regards, Victor Baca Editor & Publisher MODEL SHIP JOURNAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Whatcom Museum In Bellingham, WA Call For Models The Whatcom Museum Of History And Art in Bellingham, WA is a top-notch, professionally run municipal museum and they're working on an ambitious project to show ships and/or ship types that sailed into Bellingham Bay in the past. They've asked us to get the word out to warship modelers who may have something to contribute on loan. The pertinent info is as follows: Wish list for The Fleet's In: The US Navy in Bellingham Bay 1900-1950 Exhibit dates: October 21, 2001-January 6, 2002 Sorry Victor that I'm so late getting this out to you, but as the research goes on I keep discovering more ships coming into the bay. I was hoping that you could help out in two areas. 1) Could you help spear-head a ship modeler's day at the museum, where modelers can bring in their models on the exhibits navy theme, and display them for the public in the rotunda room, in the main building. We have the space, tables and chairs for modelers to set up demonstrations of their works and they can spend the day discussing model-building techniques and skills, and answer questions. Actually, I will let you come up with other ideas if you wish to expand on this event. Richard Vanderway, our education director, has mentioned the possibly of making this a two day weekend event, as it would be appealing to all including: amateurs, experts, hobbyists and for weekend family outings. I have passed on an event list to Richard, so you may hear from him in the future. 2) You asked for a list of ship models I am looking for as loans for the exhibit. At this time that list is as follows with more to come as research continues: 3) Pre-1900: Monitors/ Submarine Tenders: Monterey, Cheyenne. Steam Sloop-of-war: Mohican. Armored Cutter: Yorktown. 4) Battleships of the Great White Fleet, any will do to show what these ships looked like, but the Kansas, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Vermont, Minnesota, New Jersey and Georgia were the vessels in Bellingham. 5) Armored Cruisers: Tennessee and California (New York or Washington would do) 6) Submarines: F-Class, H-Class and submarines Iquique and Antofogasta. 7) Battleships: (modern, can be W W II, but prefer those prior to modernization) Mississippi, New York, Tennessee, Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Idaho, Arizona, Pennsylvania, and Maryland, California, Colorado and Nevada. 8) Cruisers: Omaha, Chicago, Concord, Salt Lake City, Louisville and Astoria. 9) Airship: Akron. 10) USS Constitution and Minesweeper Grebe (AM-43). 11) CVE Carriers (any will do, but Steamer Bay and Rendova were here). 12) Liberty Ship. 13) Destroyers: There is a long list of names and I can pass them on if needed, but I would like examples of the following classes: Clemson, Wickes, Bainbridge, Truxtun, Lawrence and Hull. This is all for the moment. I am open to suggestions if you have any to pass on. Give me a call and tell me what you think. Thanks Todd Warger at twarger@cob.org Thanks to any and all who can assist--please reply to Todd warger at above e-mail address. Regards, Victor Baca Editor & Publisher MODEL SHIP JOURNAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Erwin Van Deynze Subject: Re: Revell of Germany's 1/72nd scale S-Boat >> Does anybody know when the announced Revell of Germany 1/72nd German S-Boat is scheduled to be released?? Also what the price might wind up being?? I heard one nasty rumor that it won't be available in the USA, when it is finally released...any info on that score too??? << Hi, Ray, Just take a look on Revell Germany's website (www.revell.de) In case navigating through the German text is a bit difficult, here is the complete link to the infopage for the S-100 : http://www.revell.de/cgi-bin/testfile.pl?datei=/katalog/artgif/05051.JPG&ARPRGP=&KOP=03&ARARTN=05051 It's a long adress, so the link might become truncated, so you probably have to paste it carefully in. Release date is october 2001, and contrary to many other modelling firms, that means exactly october 2001 ! Price not available, but knowing Revell Germany it won't be that much of a problem. They usually are rather cheap (over here in Europe, that is). Availability? Can't help you there, but I guess some specialiced shops (on-line or not) will import the kit themself, and you can always try WEM or Hannants ! Wienne -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Scharnhorst documentary >> We in the UK are going to get a documentary on the salvage operation of the Scharnhorst. (Timewatch BBC2, 9.00pm). However I thought I'd share the programme description from my TV guide. << Thanks for the heads up, Chris. I rushed to my listings mag thinking 'how did I miss seeing it mentioned?', but fortunately it isn't on until Friday 1st, so still time to lay in some more VT. Knew I should have spent more time doing recce and less working.... Robert Lockie Swindon UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Missouri's Decks Bill stated - >> missouri's decks were not deck blue during the surrender ceremony the were natural teak decks. << Color photographs taken during the surrender ceremony indicate that this was not the case. MWL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Accuracy of "Pearl Harbor" Ned commented - >> Dorie was firing a late-war twin 20 mm cannon mount, rather than a .50 cal. mount. So freakin' what? << Actually, they were .50cal twin air-cooled Browings, as fitted to PT boats in WW2 and PBRs/PCFs in Vietnam. "Tora! Tora! Tora!" featured correct water-cooled Brownings, but that was 30 years ago. Some stuff doesn't last. >> The lead characters not only got into the air, shot down 7 Japanese Zero fighters (several by making them ... naw, I won't say, it'll spoil it for you), then gave blood at the Navy hospital then were on the turned-turtle battleship helping to rescue trapped sailors, all in one single day << I can just hear 'Danny' saying "Rafe, buddy, it's Miller time!" Mike Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume