Subject: SMML VOL 1270 Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:22:45 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Ballard at Pearl 2: The Movie 3: HMS Sheffield, WWII 4: Stillwell to the rescue! 5: Re: Polling and elementary mathematics 6: Re: USS Missouri Flag 7: U-505 question 8: Unique info on researching ALLIED landing craft 9: Missouri's decks - Cause for Confusion 10: Transform Hasegawa Essex into Hornet in 60's 11: MISSOURI Flag 12: BB63 Deck Blue during surrender ceremonies 13: Modeler percentages, surrender flags 14: Various percentages... 15: Re: Measure 1 at Pearl Harbor 16: Re: Revell of Germany's 1/72nd scale S-Boat 17: Re: Patches / Emblems for Royal Navy 18: Re: Squadron Books 19: Re: Pearl Harbor Movie Accurate (yeah right) 20: Re: USS WOLVERINE/USS SABLE 21: 1/700 weapons suggestions... 22: Re: Measure 1 at Pearl Harbor 23: Re: Missouri's teak decks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Ballard at Pearl Simon stated of the Ballard/Pearl Harbor program - >> Some nice shots of old footage of the Arizona, they also interviewed a N/Geo photographer who was taking shots of the remaining turret on Arizona for an issue of the magazine. The photographs, taken through all the murk and muck, of the three 14 inch barrels were very spooky/atmospheric .... or just plain frighteningly ghostly! << The film "Pearl Harbor" concludes with some underwater views of ARIZONA today, very reminiscent of the ending of "Titanic". These would appear to be CGI shots, since two turrets and six barrels are clearly shown. Artistic license, obviously, but still nicely rendered. MWL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: The Movie We saw "Pearl Harbor" this weekend and on the whole thought it was fairly well done, aside from the flaws that have already been pointed out here in some detail. As an example of it being a real mixed bag in terms of accuracy, in an early scene (shot on MISSOURI) Admiral Kimmel and his staff are shown wearing correct pre-1942 cap badges, with the eagle facing to the wearer's LEFT. I'd bet that's not something you'd see in any of the other films and TV miniseries set in December 1941. On the other hand, I was struck by how, in the scene where the nurses are being decorated for heroism, every one was awarded the Purple Heart (even though none of them were shown as being wounded in the attack). Maybe the director felt they just looked prettier than some other medals. Duh! Mike Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Lamar Jones Subject: HMS Sheffield, WWII In Sheffield's forward funnel well, attached to each of the inboard hanger sides is a platform, with a ladder from the main deck and then a ladder from the platform to a walkway forward of the funnel. Does anyone know the correct placement of these platforms? How high above the main deck? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Ralph Nardone" Subject: Stillwell to the rescue! Hmmmm, curious. I was inspired to do some page shuffling, and this may be interesting....... Bill wrote: >> the flag on the side of the bridge of the uss missouri during the surrender ceremony is not admiral dewys flag and it was not matthew perrys flag. << According to Paul Stillwell's "Battleship Missouri-An Illustrated History" (Naval Institute Press, 1996), the flag "was a 31-star flag flown from the flagship of Commodore Matthew C. Perry when his squadron steamed into Edo Bay" in 1853 (check page 56 of the aforementioned book). >> missouri's decks were not deck blue during the surrender ceremony the were natural teak decks. << Once again citing Stillwell, "Like the other decks on board the Missouri, the veranda deck, where the signing would take place, was painted a dark blue-gray as part of the camouflage scheme." (Page 58) Also, on page 76 there is a photo showing sailors holystoning the deck blue off of the teak while the ship steamed toward Hawaii after the surrender...... Michael Smith wrote: >> the new PH book include two good bow-on views of the ship that show open mounts inside the casemate. The "turret" parts are some sort of heavy-weather covering - whether canvas or metal, I can't say, but they would have been open in the tropics, certainly. << I checked out some photos in Stillwell's "Battleship Arizona-An Illustrated History (Naval Institute Press, 1991), and they seem to confirm this--the photo spread on pp. 220-221 shows a stern view of her in Jan '41, and it appears as the casemates are covered by canvas. This is the last photo in the book that shows the ship before the attack...... Steve wrote: >> Now I thought that when you conducted a pole you would want to know what 100% of all modelers were interested in. What's up with 359%? << Perhaps some modelers answered yes to multiple disciplines? I dunno...... :) >> Go to and observe what is on the shelf of all the hobby shops in your area. See if the pole is close. << Could be--most of the models on the shelves (and completed models in the dispay cases) of the local shops are cars and airplanes...... As far as goes ICM and their HMS Hood release, I'll wait--I think it is going to be here, but I suppose it all depends on how far along the tooling is and how many want it. IIRC, didn't ICM communicate that to us through the HMS Hood Association a while back? When it gets here, it gets here. If it doesn't, I suppose I'll have to either A: wait until someone does the Hood in styrene; or 2: spring for a resin kit. Cheers! Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Polling and elementary mathematics >> Methinks FSM's poll allowed multiple choice, e.g. I build ships primarily, but also build aircraft, so I would show up twice. Therefore according to this poll 84% of all modelers build aircraft, 48% build armor, and there is some overlap between these groups. I am certain there are very few modelers who build one type of model exclusively. << Another factor to consider would also be their polling base. In this case, it was not a random sampling of modelers, but of the FSM reader base. Therefore, we now know what a majority of the readers of Fine Scale Modeler like to build. I still believe that car models are the top selling type of model, with airplanes coming in second, and armor possibly third. Even though ship modelers are a dedicated minority, Gundam modeling probably out ranks ship modeling. I base this on sales at the local hobby shop, (the owner is a good friend), what you see the chain stores like Wally World and Toys R Us stocking, and the introduction of new kits by the manufacturers. My analysis is not very scientific, granted, but I still believe it to be fairly accurate. Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Vincent Mccullough" Subject: Re: USS Missouri Flag >> I believe the person asking was referring to the flag bolted to the bulkhead at the surrender cermonies. Here's the shot of the flag: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s200000/s210644.jpg And I quote: "The framed flag in lower right is that hoisted by Commodore Matthew C. Perry on 14 July 1853, in Yedo (Tokyo) Bay, on his first expedition to negotiate the opening of Japan. It had been brought from its permanent home in Memorial Hall at the U.S. Naval Academy for use during the surrender ceremonies." << John's link to the Navy's historical site pretty well settles THAT question. All you need to do to confirm it is to count the stars on the flag, and then figure out when the US had only 30 states. Vince McCullough NRG Webmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: U-505 question Help someone who isn't familiar with German boats. What type U-boat was the U-505 and what available models are there of that type? 1/700 scale please. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. You can now pay using your Visa / MasterCard Flagship Models - Photo Etched Details for Warships "That's mighty bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Unique info on researching ALLIED landing craft Courtesy of Ron Hillsden of the Victoria Model Shipbuilding Society, Victoria, British Columbia, listed below is some different info on Allied landing craft in WW II. Regards, John - Seattle >> Hi John, I suggest you get a spider to help with your web searches - I like Copernic Basic http://www.copernic.com/ - it's free! I got 101 'hits' on 'Landing Craft Tank'. Some are duplicates, here are a few: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/ships-lc.html#lct http://members.tripod.com/~lct1380/ http://www.angelfire.com/pa/LCT376/ http://www.navsource.org/archives/phibidx.htm http://ww2lct.org/mk6/mk6main.htm http://lst494.freeyellow.com/Other_Interesting_Web_Sites.htm http://normandy.eb.com/normandy/weapons.html http://www.f126.freeserve.co.uk/plymouth/lct.html http://www.hazegray.org/ http://www.warship.simplenet.com/LCT4.htm http://www.xmission.com/~jcander/lst-1110.htm Suggest you download a spider like Copernic or Web Ferret, then go to town. There is a lot out on the net - no waiting, no charge! Be sure to look around and follow the links in these sites...I didn't follow the links in 'Other interesting sites' above, but it looks like there are enough to keep you amused for an evening! Good Luck and Happy Modelling! Ron Hillsden Victoria Model Shipbuilding Society -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Rod Dauteuil" Subject: Missouri's decks - Cause for Confusion Look at this picture of the surrender ceremony, straight from the Haze Gray archives: http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/battleships/images/usa/bb63-3.jpg The decks definitely do NOT look blue. But in the other shot provided by J.Sheridan, they definitely ARE blue. In fact, I always though the decks were teak until I saw the latter picture. Rod. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: roberto paredes Subject: Transform Hasegawa Essex into Hornet in 60's Hi Guys, I'm looking info to transform the Hasegawa Essex into Hornet in 60's, Does anybody help me? Cheers, Roberto -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Math Mathiasen" Subject: MISSOURI Flag Although I was only 10 in 1941, I believe we had more than 30 states. I count 30 stars on the flag shown on the MISSOURI Math -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Lump518176@aol.com Subject: BB63 Deck Blue during surrender ceremonies Missouri's decks were indeed 20-B Deck Blue during the surrender ceremonies Sept. 1945 (Bill). There are many color photos of the ceremonies which clearly show this, for what its worth. Jerry Phillips -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Mike C" Subject: Modeler percentages, surrender flags For Steve Wiper: I've heard that 87.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot (like this one). ;-D I think the FSM survey included crossover builders and that's why the totals came out over 300%. Even though your final figures look convincing, I don't think anyone really knows the actual percentages because the survey only includes numbers on people who actually bothered to respond. The simplest thing to do would be to limit the results to a ranking, and I think you are probably correct with the order of your final list. Regarding the flags displayed at the Japanese surrender, does anyone know where the flags are now? Mike Czibovic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Shane Weier Subject: Various percentages... Steve comments: >> Here is some information collected by Fine Scale Modeler. I dont agree with all of it, but they did probably the best pole of modelers than any other. This is a list of different types of modelers and their percentages. << Probably heavily biased to *North American* modellers, since the magazine doesn't usually arrive in many overseas countries until after the polls/contests close, and is less than widely read in non-English language countires >> Total 359%? << I build Ships *and* Aircraft *and* Figures - so I'm in three categories. MANY modellers build in multiple categories - so the percentages shouldn't total 100% unless broken up into all possible permutations and combinations. Setting aside the US-centric population sample the poll is probably quite correct Regards Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Measure 1 at Pearl Harbor >> Has there ever been any consensus as to whether the Measure 1 used by the battleships at PH actually used Navy Blue instead of Dark Gray? I know this was a theory some time back, and after seeing all the ships in Tom Freeman's latest paintings wearing dark blue under Light Gray upperworks, I thought I'd ask if I missed something. << I and another person who knows much more than myself on USN photos, and wishes to remain anonymous, have spoken to Mr. Tom "Quickest Brush in the East" Freeman, and told him, and have shown him the color photos of the wrecked battleships at Pearl Harbor. These images were taken from 16mm movie film out takes from the John Ford filming at that local from February thru March, 1942. I have a view of the wreck of the Arizona, the West Virginia, the bridge of the California, and Nevada going into dry dock. They are all very dark, and have a strong blue tone. Upon showing these to Mr. Snyder of the infamous "Snyder & Short" paint chip peddlers, he believed that it was Dark Gray 5-D, but added that the Dark Gray at that time had blue in it. I personally believe that the color is Navy Blue 5-N, because these images are really have an unmistakable blue tone to them. There is a color shift in the images, but it is a slight shift towards Yellow. I am not, as they say, "Seeing what I want to see", but am remaining unbiased in my opinion. I have really good vision, so no problems there. I will be making a trip to the "Treasure Chest" of photos again this year, and of course the color images are paramount in my searches. I have even gone to the trouble to get quotes from my printer on doing a book, or books, completely in color. I hope to print something like that by the end of next year. If I can find enough color images, I would like to do a new series of W.W.II USN in color, year by year, 1939 to 1945. I would paint your Pearl Harbor battleships Navy Blue, that's my opinion, for what its worth. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Revell of Germany's 1/72nd scale S-Boat >> Does anybody know when the announced Revell of Germany 1/72nd German S-Boat is scheduled to be released?? Also what the price might wind up being?? I heard one nasty rumor that it won't be available in the USA, when it is finally released...any info on that score too??? << Ray, The release for the 1/72 S-100, mid to late war Schnellboote is slated for October, this year. The latest kits from Revell Germany have been a bargain, and the quality is as good or better than the Revell USA "Pro Modeler" series. You need to smack who ever told you that it wont be available in the USA, on the back of the head. I am going to release a book on Schnellboote's in October, just because of this kit. Wait till you see the cover and all the drawings and photos in this book. You will be able to build a model of almost every version that existed. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Craig R Bennett Subject: Re: Patches / Emblems for Royal Navy Hi Guys I don't have any information that Werner is looking for, but, I do know a small trivia fact about RN ship insigna. When the RN builds a ship they give it a insigna or coat of arms. Once they assign it, it stays with the ship name. When I was building a Revell Campbeltown and researched it thru the old Ship's Profile booklet. In the early 90's the current Campbeltown made a port of call.There it was the same symbol for the ship name. Some of them must be a century old or more. Also any battle fought by a ship of the RN has the battles name added to a list as part of the heritage. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Squadron Books Ed said - >> I picked up a signed print of the Fletcher DD In Action cover. << That cover painting of O'BANNON versus HIEI at Guadalcanal was very dramatic, but would appear to have some errors in the type and position of some of the weapons carried at the time (November 1942). Looks like late-war K-guns are shown, as well as incorrect 20mm positions amidships and on the fantail. MWL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: NEVENGER@aol.com Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor Movie Accurate (yeah right) I almost wrecked in car today when I heard on the radio how the movie Pearl Harbor was historically accurate. This is the danger we face when a movie is made and someone forgets to check detail in a history book. I think someone believes the movie The final Countdown was real because I see no other way a post WWII Nucular Carrier could have gotten its self into the 1940's. Looking at the overshot of Pearl it was as if they took a modern pictire of the harbor and then used digital to add the battleships. I failed to see even one destroyer that looked even close to like it was for 1941. I think they must have had a flux in the time space comendium and poof nothing matches its time frame. I pray the next time a movie with warships is done they try to at least make them match the year it takes place. If its worth doing then it worth giving it a real try. Next time they do a movie on WWII we may have to watch F15 eagles replace Mustangs and the B-1 used instead of a B-17. It really pains me to think my Grand Uncle who just died 3 weeks ago may be rolling over in his grave because of how Hollywood can not even get close to making the battle scene look correct. Of note he was in Lyte Gulf on the USS White Planes and served for about 40 more years after WWII in the navy. I just feel they could have done a better job if they had cared. At least my Grand Uncle did not have to think his mind was gone because he saw the movie. There was a lot more that I could complain about in the movie, but I do not want to write a book so I will end it here. Richard Dixon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Bruce Burden Subject: Re: USS WOLVERINE/USS SABLE From: "Matthew Prager" >> I'm looking for information and drawings concerning USS WOLVERINE (IX-64) and USS SABLE (IX-81), << Well, Matthew, if you can do it, I suggest a trip to the National Archives II, in Maryland. They have the microfilm that has the information that you are looking for. I have about 1" worth of 11"x17" copies from the 'film, and some of it is very rough. The original plans for the steamers weren't apparently too well cared for, as they are very difficult to see, but are more or less usable. Unfortunately, that will only get you the original steamer. The plans the US Navy/The American Shipbuilding Company drew up are in excellent shape, and have more detail than you really want! And, you will have to decide how much detail you want, since the deck _slightly!_ overhangs the original hull. That means you are going to need to reproduce the truss system that supported this mess. Also, you may need to reproduce some of the stack system. I am not sure how much you can actually see under the deck, however, so it is all a guess. I, too, have thought to model the Wolverine. I think it would be a kick to depict her flying the flag of the Admiral of the Fleet, as King did visit her one day... Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Bruce Burden Subject: 1/700 weapons suggestions... Hi gang, Now that I have a copy of "Lexington Class Carriers", and the Fujimi kit of the Saratoga, I am thinking of building this kit. However, the 20mm, 40mm and 5"/38 guns are rather umm, poor. (Actually, they are great, as far as blobs of plastic go). What is the collective wisdom for replacement weapons for this kit? I have seen 20mm guns in 1/700, and I am sure some body does 40mm quads, but 5"/38 singles? Thank you, Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: wem Subject: Re: Measure 1 at Pearl Harbor The Battle Line was in Ms.1, using Dark Gray 5-D. I've seen copies of the color photos that purport to show them in 5-N Navy Blue, and it's a case of blue shift introduced by various copying procedures. Check Alan Raven's series of articles in Plastic Ship Modeler a few years back (and available now on the Shipcamouflage website. There was only one ship known for sure to have been in 5-N at PH at the time of the attack. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: Re: Missouri's teak decks There is a large copy of one of the following pictures: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/ac00001/ac04626.jpg http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/ac00001/ac01189.jpg .. in the US Cruiser Sailor's Association Memorial Room on board the USS Salem. Also check out: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/ac00001/ac02716.jpg http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/ac00001/ac04627.jpg for additional color photos of the surrender ceremony. Larry Ouellette louellet@uism.bu.edu Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) United States Naval Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http://www.uss-salem.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume