Subject: SMML VOL 1285 Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:11:52 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: RAF rescue launches 2: Liberty SS Ben Robertson 3: Re: A-1H Skyraiders 4: Re: USS Langley at Tarakan, Borneo on 10 January 1942? 5: Re: We modelers don't have fun at movies 6: Re: Percentages of modeler types 7: thanks!/JAG jag 8: Brass Props 9: Re: Hornet at Alameda 10: 1:400-500 Parts 11: Re: Finishing wood hulls 12: Marking centerlines 13: Re: Lycra thread 14: Re: HMS Dido in camouflage 15: SS Ben Robertson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: RAF rescue launches Concerning the activities of the RAF's HSLs, I submit the following historical comments. "July 1935 saw another change of command when Group Captain W V Strugnell took over from Group Captain Manning. Shortly afterwards No 2 (Army Go-operation) Squadron was transferred to Hawkinge and replaced in December by No 48 (General Reconnaissance) Squadron from Bicester. . . "Wing Commander Bryson recalls an adventure at sea involving the high speed launches stationed in Ramsgate Harbour for duty with No 48 (GR) Squadron. "We had two of these launches, equipped with old aero engines by a firm in Cowes - they had never run for more than 15 minutes without conking out. One afternoon the Royal Temple Yacht Club had a race from Ramsgate. A squall blew up and the yachts ran aground on the treacherous quicksands. With trepidation I ordered out the two 'high speed' rescue launches which, miraculously, managed to keep going and rescued the boats". For this successful exercise Group Captain Strugnell and Wing Commander Bryson were made Honorary Life Members of the club. . . "The crisis in international affairs which took place in September 1938, resulted in some movements from Manston. At the beginning of the month No 48 (GR) Squadron left for Eastchurch, handing over their Anson aircraft to the School of Air Navigation. This Squadron had been at Manston since the 16th December 1935 and, during its stay, had "given birth" to No 206 (GR) Squadron in June 1936 and No 224 (GR) Squadron in February 1937. At the end of the month No 500 (County of Kent) (Bomber) Squadron was transferred from Manston to Detling. During the crisis leave was canceled, gas-masks were issued, trenches and machine gun posts were dug, blackout and anti-gas precautions were taken, the aircraft, airfield and buildings were camouflaged, and bomb and ammunition dumps set up. Manston was preparing for war. . . http://www.spitfire-museum.com/book/chapter5.htm " In the book "RAF Manston, in old photographs" (I have a few new copies for anyone who might be interested), on pages 98 and 99, there are two excellent photographs showing Launch 149 in action. The first is entitles "The Sea Shall Not Have Them," and it shows 149 in the midst of rescuing Flt. Sgt. Randall of 111 Squadron off North Foreland on 24 July 1942. What makes this particular photograph so interesting is that it is taken at the instant that Randall was being helped upon the deck of 149 by the two crewmen who went into the water and the others on the deck. The two twin Lewis mounts are shown to good effect as these were normally stowed until the HSL was in a hostile area outside of port. Also, the different hatches of the HSL's deckhouse are shown open, with lots of detail showing, as well as the interior's white paint. This one photograph could be used as a very effective inspiration for a very poignant vignette. The photograph of Launch 149 heading out from its home port of Ramsgate to pick up another downed Allied pilot in the channel. In this photograph, the Lewis mounts are stowed. The caption states that this HSL was stricken from charge on May 1957, which places that launch still in service well after the USAF had taken up charge at Manston during 1950. Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Ian Wrenford" Subject: Liberty SS Ben Robertson Jodie, From the book "liberty ships in peacetime" by I.G.Stewart I quote..... Ben Robertson 7198g 1.44 Southeastern (37) WSA: Mgd A.H.Bull Co. Inc. New York 12.46 Sold Constantine G.Gratsos, Athens. (USMC t/f approved 2.47) (Original owners shown as D.G, A.G, & P.G Gratsos) R/N KASTOR 1947 (mgs Dracoulis Ltd, London from 1948 toi 1962, also George D Gratsos Shps Co. Ltd Athens from 1949) 1963 to Gratsos Bros - Gk flag, N/r. (George D. Gratsos Co. Ltd, Athens, also Phoenix Shps Co. Ltd London) Sold Japanese breakers. Arr. Hirao 20.11.68 Ian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Glenn and Kelly Neklason" Subject: Re: A-1H Skyraiders Hank & Eugene, thanks a lot for your help. Yes, I know it was VA-152, not VF-152. Just a case of my fingers not typing what my brain told 'em to! Glenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: USS Langley at Tarakan, Borneo on 10 January 1942? Dear John, One of the things that I have found during my thirty plus years of writing articles, books, or just doing private research was the fact that single field or topic research does not reveal everything there is on a particular subject. A case in point is this issue of where the Langley was during January 1942. I am co-authoring a book with Alan Matthews on the first six months of WW-II in the Pacific and the causes of why the different disasters befell the Allies during this time period. Mattews is the undisputed expert on the sinking of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse, and the fall of Singapore, so much so, he has been interviewed of BBC television on more than one occasion. And, with the supporting material that I have provided on the secret ABDA agreements between the pre-war allies, is going to be a major contributor for a currently filming documentary on the 50 year loss of these two vessels. Be that as it may, my contribution to this forth coming CD-book that I am going to be publishing through my own company of Snow Leopard Productions, http://snolep.home.texas.net/ covers all of the strategic and tactical operations of the USN during this same time period. Part of FDR's secret war with Congress during this time period was his complete setting aside of the Constitution's stipulations about Congress' abilities to declare war. The ABDA agreement clearly set aside the Constitution, and all references to any US military involvement in the war in Europe and in China were kept to a "need to know" basis within the JCS's higher echelons. The establishment of the "Flying Tigers" in China, its establishment and recruitment here in the States through COSCO, the shipping of its equipment and personnel aboard Dutch merchant shipping that were escorted to Australia by USN warships, and their crated P-40s being shipped on the Langley, were for the most part still not within the context of modern history books. Contributors to this book are from some of the most knowledgeable people on their perspective fields in the world. Has anyone ever questioned why the USN was using Tarakan, Borneo, as a foreword area base of operations on 7 December 1941? Or, why were there so many USN vessels there on that morning rather than being in the Philippines? Are there that many out there who know that the entire USN command in the Far East was transferred immediately to the British General Wavell upon the news of the Japanese attack on PH? When Wavell was soon transferred to the Western Desert campaign against Rommel, it was a Dutch Admiral who assumed the ABDA's senior command post and all authority over the allies military forces. As with the Flying Tigers ability to operate with, and in some cases under, RAF control in Burma, all of these examples of joint service and authority were out growths of the pre-war ABDA'a specifications and conditions. So too was why Langley was at Tarakan on 10 January 1942. As an aircraft transport, the Langley was more valuable than any other vessel in the area. So too were the P-40s it was carrying for the Flying Tigers. With the fall of Singapore to the Japanese, there was no safety for the shipments to Rangoon, which was the end port of delivery for the P-40s the Largley was carrying. As Surabaya was to be the new forward area of operations of the Allies in their effort to stop the Japanese, the Langley was diverted back to Tarakan because of the threat of Japanese air activities in the area. On 4 February 1942, the Houston took a bomb hit that killed fifty men and burned out her after 8-inch gun turret. And, as a result of the ABDA allies' inability to hold the area safe from aerial assault, the Langley was sent to Tarakan for the antiaircraft protection of the present ABDA's naval units present. Even if the Langley had been hit at Tarakan, her cargo of P-40s could have been rescued. In closing, my question about the Langley's presence at Tarakan deal with those crucial days of late January and early February 1942 when there was no really safe haven for any naval vessel under the Japanese aerial superiority. If anyone has any details of these days for the Langley, or any other ABDA naval vessel, please contact me with the pertinent information. Thanks. Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Maze Subject: Re: We modelers don't have fun at movies From: "Henry T Chen" >> While others simply enjoy the war movies, we who build models constantly look for how accurate the planes, the ships are in the movies. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it's a 2nd nature of ours, and unfortunately I think sometimes that took a lot of fun out of seeing a movie. BUT I CAN"T HELP IT!!! I did that with Tora!Tora!Tora!, with Miday, with all the others, and I know I'll again when I go see Pearl Harbor!! Sigh.. << Try being an engineer (and likely the same for others with a technical degree)! Between historical knowledge, military/governmental operations insight, and technical knowledge, movies can be a real bummer for me, especially if they aspire to being reality. (sci-fi and comic book based movies are easier since they don't make any claims to reality, as long as the sci-fi doesn't become totally ridiculous, like Armegeddon.) JohnM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Maze Subject: Re: Percentages of modeler types SteveW wrote: >> Now, I know that there is no way that there are more ship modelers than there are armor modelers, if not only by the amount of entries at a contest, than by what is on the shelf at any given hobby shop. << I'll give you, this one... >> more aircraft...than any other categories. I am going to break down the Diorama category into what I have observed in the last 9 IPMS National Conventions I have attended, both in the USA and one in the UK. Also, I believe that there is a bad overlap of the Ships and Boats category from the original pole. The revised list is below. This is typical of modelers in the USA. Aircraft 25.4% All Automotive 22.1% Armor 21.7% Ships & Boats 13.1% Figures 7.2% Spacecraft 5.8% Fantasy Models 4.7% Total 100% << Sorry, IPMS contests at any level are not indicative of the popularity of all categories. Car, figure and fantasy modelers, in general, avoid IPMS events like the plague. This is from years of military modelers looking down ther noses at the them - or so THEY say. (I have not experienced this, but then I'm not heavily involved in clubs.) It is so bad in my area that the "car modeler only" clubs will ostracize one of their members if he attends an IPMS meeting! I build from almost every category, so I have friends and contacts and am a list member for most. >> Go to and observe what is on the shelf of all the hobby shops in your area. See if the pole is close. << Nope! I can go into four shops and come out with four different answers. (a/c, cars, armor, and - surprise! - figures) JohnM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Jodie Peeler Subject: thanks!/JAG jag hello all.... First off, thanks to all of you who responded (and quickly!) to me, whether on-list or privately, and helped with the SS Ben Robertson problem. Among all of you, I was able to get enough information to get me out of my immediate problem (i.e. having enough in the dissertation to account for the ship's life and fate, and not having a really good library within about 80 miles of where I am right now). When I'm not working against as tight a deadline, i.e. when I finally turn the dissertation into a book, I'll do some further digging on the ship's career using the resources some of you suggested. Thanks to all of you for your help! It reminds me of how great this list is.... :) John Kutina wrote: >> I am a great fan of "JAG" on the USA channel. Last thursday, June 7, 2001 the channel did a program concerning a "ghost" on the USS Hornet. There were many sequences on the decommissioned Hornet's deck and superstructure that those of you who are carrier fans would have enjoyed. This series does re-runs so watch for the program that concerns ships ghosts. << I remember catching this episode when it originally ran in 1997 (I think). It was a scream, I thought, although it was kind of neat how they worked in the whole thread about the ship being an endangered preservation candidate, and chuckled at how they made the scrap surveyor out to be just this side of Satan himself. All that aside, it was cool that Hornet get a nationwide television audience for the first time since July 1969. jodie http://www.mindspring.com/~raisingirl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: Brass Props I am looking for a set of brass counter-rotating three bladed props for a 1:350 battleship, about 3/8" to 1/2" diameter. Are these available commercially? Alternatively, are there any metalsmiths who can cast such pieces in brass from a master? Economically, that is. Dave Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: Hornet at Alameda Of course in real life there are a lot of stories and sightings about ghosts on the HORNET, which most people think is nonsense. I for one, don't like the emphasis that is placed on it verses talking about the history of her. Now I said I don't like it however, I am part of it as when she what tied up at Hunters Point Naval Shipyard with one day left before they were to start cutting on her, I was invited to go aboard and take as many pictures as I wanted - both in and out. In fact the photos were published on the NAVIS web site. Anyway, in one compartment I took a picture with my flash because I could not see - there were no lights in that compartment and I had already come close to stepping thru an unprotected hatch. From there I moved on and when I developed the prints the one for that compartment has an image of something light and transparent passing by the camera. What I cannot explain is that it appears to be a surgeon with white cap and cloth mask over the mouth, which would be standard. My question has always been why a surgeon?? Yes I know they have two operating tables on board. Anyone else ever experience anything like that aboard a ship, commissioned or not. I remember as a kid watching the Navy Log TV series and there was one episode where a carrier was sinking and there were men trapped inside and all they could do was pass the time playing cards until the ship sank. Then it moved to the present namesake of the ship where men could hear the sound of card playing in a compartment but no one was there - anyone remember what ship it was supposed to be. It would have to be the YORKTOWN, WASP, LEXINGTON or of course the HORNET. Mike Donegan NAVYDAZE, Naval & Aviation Artist -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Peter K. H. Mispelkamp Subject: 1:400-500 Parts >> Does anyone know of a source for Twin 5/38s, Quad 40mm's, Single 20mm's, and Kingfishers in this scale? A buddy is thinking about reworking his Revell Arizona into a c.1944-45 Pennsy. << Your choice of the Hasagowa (sp?) is probably the best, if you want something a little oversized then parts from the Arii/Kangnam 1/400 USS Missouri might work. For what's it worth, I am planning the same conversion, so I hope your friend posts his results/techniques here. Sincerely Peter K. H. Mispelkamp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: Finishing wood hulls As Someone involved in making wood hulls for fiberglass molds, I have used and seen used Pine, Bass, Walnut, Cherry, etc. After being sanded to a smooth finish, it is lightly coated in epoxy fiberglass resin and sanded smooth. Then another light coat of fiberglass resin, sanded smooth then smoother and then even smoother, 600 grit, 1000 grit & 2000 grit, then polished. After these steps, it is waxed and a fiberglass mold is made from it. I have also seen Bass and Balsa used with a thin sheet of styrene superglued over top for the final finish. Don't discount using wood, just be prepared to finish it properly. Putty and filling primers will do the trick as well, the key is in the sanding. Darren -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: buchnerb@mail.direcpc.com (0C754C01) Subject: Marking centerlines Does anyone have a good method for marking the centerline on a hull other than trying to sight down it I always seem to have trouble ensuring the holes I drill for the mounting pins are in the center of the hull. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "David Griffith" Subject: Re: Lycra thread Lycra thread is available in the UK from:- Aeroclub Models 5 Silverwood Avenue Ravenshead Nottingham NG15 9BU United Kingdom It is sold for rigging biplanes, and I'm sorry, but IMHO it looks bloody awful. It's basically light grey elastic and that's exactly what it looks like. I see where you're coming from with this idea, wanting to get the rigging wires tight. The trouble with using something like lycra would be, again IMHO, that it needs to be under tension and that would distort or pull to pieces your masts and spars. May I suggest that if you use nylon or some other synthetic fibre, or even stretched sprue, you can tighten it up by applying heat. If you put a source of heat under the monofilament it will first sag and then pull up tight. I've done this many times with biplanes. Some people suggest taking a match, blowing it out and using the hot end to give the heat. My favourite method is to use a small electrical soldering iron with a large darning needle fixed to the bit with fuse wire. This seems to give just the right level of heat required. Just be careful not to get the bit proper too close to the plastic, or you'll have instant battle damage!!! Regards, David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "David Griffith" Subject: Re: HMS Dido in camouflage >> In reading DK Browns' book Nelson to Vanguard on page 78 there is a picture of H.M.S Dido in what appears as a camouflage pattern. The photo is credited to the Imperial War Museum: A23709 and no date is given. It appears as though the hull, A & Y turrets, the fore funnel and the lower half of the forward deck house (main deck only) is darker in colour than the remainder of the ship. << Consulting Alan Raven's book on the Dido Class cruisers (Bivouac Books, 1973) he states that Dido was completed without any camouflage scheme and did not carry any until after she had returned from the US where she was repaired after battle damage at Crete in 1941. He also says that he was unable to find any photos of her in camouflage so was not able to describe it. Of course this reference is now 27 years old and information may have come to light subsequently. The book does, however, contain schemes for several other members of the class, both sides in most cases. If you are interested, please contact me off list. Regards, David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: cfrieden@calpoly.edu Subject: SS Ben Robertson It looks like if you want information more detailed than what John Snyder posted you are going beyond the realm of published information. If you have time for further research check out the following link to see where you can start. http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1965/vessinfo.htm Also, the National Liberty Ship Memorial has a collection of oral histories collected from veterans who visit the Jeremiah O’Brien. They might have one from a Ben Robertson crewmember. These are kept at the ship’s office at Ft. Mason. You can get the phone number from the ship’s website: www.ssjeremiahobrien.com By the way, the proper name is SS Jeremiah O’Brien, not USS. USN Liberty ships were typically renamed after constellations. I hope this helps. Regards, Chris Friedenbach -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume