Subject: SMML VOL 1299 Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 02:09:02 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: HMS Caroline 2: Re: Kit instructions (or NOT) 3: Kit instructions (Good Quality) 4: Re: Kevin Wenker/Kit instructions 5: Re: Kit instructions (or NOT) 6: Re: HR Fittings 7: Re: HMS Agincourt 8: Andrea Gail 9: Excellent 1/700 Newport LST 10: Labeling is Helpful 11: Re: HR Fittings 12: Re: But first syndrome 13: Potemkin and Eisenstein's film 14: Kit instructions 15: Re: S.E. Morison 16: Re: Derek's "Why I can't get a model built" 17: Pt 2 LCP kits 18: IJN Tenryu conversion 19: USS Atlanta question 20: Snyder & Short paint chip set 21: Re: Book stores in NYC 22: Re: Agincourt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: SMML meeting at the Nat's??? 2: IPMS Nat's - get together? 3: Chicago Nationals -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Toms Modelworks USS Enterprise CVN-65 set update 2: Books for sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "graham and melanie" Subject: HMS Caroline This is a Royal Navy Reservist training ship in Belfast I think. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Re: Kit instructions (or NOT) Hi Folks, Regarding John Sheridan's diatribe. John, why is it that every time someone has a LEGITIMATE complaint about something regarding one of the resin manufacturer's, you always make it sound as if these folks are doing us a favor just by existing and we should genuflect whenever their sainted names are mentioned?????? When someone feels that their money may have been mis-spent because of something that just about all modelers take for granted and SHOULD REASONABLY EXPECT, like legible instructions!!!!, they have a right to air that issue. Granted, they should take it up with the maufacturers first and try to resolve their concern. I have purchased at least one resin ship kit from just about all of the "cottage industry" folks. For the most part, I have been pleased. A couple, I feel, have not been worth the money, but still glad to have them. Your comments make it sound that someone, especially a first time purchaser!!, should simply be grateful these folks put these kits out and that we should line up with our money and throw it at them. I for one wish Dennis HAD named the manufacturer, so I can take that into consideration the next time I may be considering one of those kits. Not a smart idea though, to be turning off newcomers to these type of ship models. You might want to brush up on the laws of supply and demand: especially the part about what happens to suppliers when there is no longer any demand. Regards, John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Boatbldr" Subject: Kit instructions (Good Quality) Derek said... >> The instructions from most resin ship firms do tend to be a bit vauge..... << D.P. said ... >> While it would have been great to receive a CAD generated and comprehensive set of instructions it is the quality and accuracy ... << Devin said ... >> A problem with resin ship kits in the past has indeed been with the instructions << And then Gene said >> ... there is no excuse for inferior plans << It is not all bad news, and sometimes there is great news.. Some manufacturers in the cottage industry do indeed provide excellent examples. As an example, DJ Parkins has some awesome CAD based instructions - multiple colours - exploded drawings - great stuff - there is a sample for you to look at at: http://www.internetmodeler.com/2001/june/new-releases/flower-sets.htm No relation to these guys, just a very satisfied consumer. regards Boatbldr -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Kevin Wenker/Kit instructions >> Jeez, John, remind me never to come to you for assistance. Reads like you need some granola in your diet. How is a first time resin buyer supposed to know all the things you listed? Osmosis? Instead of helping someone who was frustrated, you just likely turned him off to ships for good. Nice move. << Sorry Kevin, but don't you think that it is better to forewarn the first time resin buyer that a resin kit building is different from plastic and to advise to start with something relatively simple so that he might gain some experience without too much frustration?? Otherwise the poor guy may get turned off ships anyway. With the growth of the Internet a lot of information is there for the picking and really only a very little initial effort is required on the modeler's part. Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Re: Kit instructions (or NOT) One of the great strengths of the resin kits is the quality of research that goes into their creation and the loving attention to detail in that process. That said, there is no excuse for "by guess and by God" instructions: the kit makers have ALL the knowledge necessary to identify and locate the parts. Therefore, there is no logical reason that they should not share enough of that info to obviate the need for a new library for each new kit. I can well understand the need ot price resin kits so high; I cannot understand then forcing the builder to spend as much again in research *when the kit maker already has it.* As has been noted, the instructions need be neither elaborate nor extensive, but they *should* be accurate, complete, and decipherable/legible. My 2 centarii. Steve Allen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: PT191@aol.com Subject: Re: HR Fittings I swear by H-R's stuff. It's great and the service is first rate and turn around time is reasonable. T. Garth Connelly I can also be reached at SC699@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: HMS Agincourt The thread on the Agincourt has me wondering if anyone has ever drawn up a set of plans for her. What an impressive model she would be with those 7 main turrets! Kurt SeaPhoto Maritime Photography www.warshipphotos.com Now taking credit cards via Paypal! Warship Models Underway www.warshipmodelsunderway.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Andrea Gail This might be a bit off the beaten track, but I have been trying to locate a set of plans for the fishing boat Andrea Gail (of Perfect Storm fame). So far, no luck, even tried writing to Industrial Light and Magic which must have had some information in order to construct the digital model. The builder is out of business, and her owner perished in an odd accident. There are many similar vessels out there whose hull lines would do, but I have been unable to locate any. Has anyone seen a set of plans for a 70' longliner? TIA!! Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto Maritime Photography www.warshipphotos.com Now taking credit cards via Paypal! Warship Models Underway www.warshipmodelsunderway.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "VanBuren, Peter M" Subject: Excellent 1/700 Newport LST I just rec'd my 1/700 Newport LSt kit from Joe D'Amato (http://www.modelwerks.net) and thought I would write a short out of box preview/review. I have no financial or other interest in the maker-- I just like ships. Without a doubt the kit is excellent, and is (unless I'm wrong...) the only one available of this ship in 1/700. The whole thing is done in light gray resin with very few pin holes and no flaws beyond a very slight warping of the hull near the bow. No other clean up seems needed on the hull. The hull is molded in one piece with all the superstruture, the engine exhaust and most of the surface detail, all very clean and well-defined. The kit also includes as separate pieces pontoons, detail parts, gun turrets, life raft canister racks and the deck handling gear. A helo and deck forklift are also included-- the moldings on the latter two pieces will look *very* familiar to anyone who has built a Dragon Saipan or Tarawa. The detail parts are molded on resin plug-sprues and thin film as appropriate. Instructions are first-rate, printed in color on two sides of a single 8.5x11 (A4) page, with a separate sheet of tips on working with resin. The illustrations are clear and, because the sheet is in color, make good use of color to show the location of detail parts. For example, red squares mark the placement of bollards, so they end up in the right places without additional photo research needed by the builder and without any out-of-scale locator markings that would need to be sanded off the deck. Two color and one B+W photo of the real ship are helpfully included on the instruction sheet, as well as a list of three or four reference titles used to research the kit. Very helpful stuff. One of the most interesting things about the kit is the use of laser-cut Strathmore board in place of what would likely have been PE parts. Essentially, this is very finely cut poster-board like material for things like bracing, helo blades and boat davits. Instructions are included on how best to paint and use these parts, and spares are provided. The latter is a good thing, in that most modelers will not likely have had much experience with such parts. The instructions state that the Strathmore provides more "bulk" to the parts and is an easy medium to work with. I haven't started building my kit yet, but look forward to exchanging ideas on SMML on working with this material. A few other points: the laser cut board includes two styles of helo blades, the standard thin and droopy and something new, broader blades designed to look like they are in motion, an interesting variant on the clear plastic disks sometimes seen to imply moving blades. Also, a peel and stick mask for the helo landing pad deck markings is included. Again, I haven't started on the kit but it appears that you can use the mask to spray the pattern with white paint or, peel the "opposite" mask elements off to leave the mask on the model as the markings themselves. I know that after market, pre-cut masks have been available for some time now to help aircraft modelers paint intricate canopy details and welcome this innovation on the Newport kit. The service was great. I ordered by email, followed up with my check in the mail. Joe responded to several emails from me before I bought the kit. The kit arrived on time. When I emailed about a minor part being broken in shipping, Joe shot back an email saying he'd put a replacement into the mail for me. SUM: while not a kit for a beginner in resin, this is not so complex that folks like me, kind of in the middle range of skills, can't enjoy it. The kit fills a niche for us 'Gator navy folks and promises more good things to come. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "VanBuren, Peter M" Subject: Labeling is Helpful >> No matter what is said "in favor" of the manufacturers, for the money paid for these kits there is no excuse for inferior plans, instructions, moldings, etc. "Let the buyer beware" should not apply here. If a more experienced builder and backup references are required to build a model from the kit supplied, then it should say so up front in bold letters on the box and in the advertising. When you are burned once with one of these kits, you will probably never return, and that is not what this hobby needs. Gene Larson Alexandria, Virginia Member, NRG << I see a lot of truth in the above statement. Having bought some resin kits, as well as all sorts of plastic kits, it is obvious that some resin kits require/demand significantly higher skills than others. Sometimes some scratch building is needed, sometimes the builder must do some serious photo research just to get the kit together, never mind detailing it up. Like many of you, sometimes I enjoy the research side and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I accept a resin kit that needs a lot of work just to make it passable (I just built an HP Kirov whose final weight must be 75% in putty and gap filling super glue). The point is the maker needs to be upfront and very clear on this. Publish scans of the parts and instruction sheets on your web sites please! That way we as consumers can make informed decisions. A ship modeler who gives up on resin kits after a bad experience hurts us all. A ship modeler who has a good experience with a first resin kit is gonna buy more and we all win. I think "full disclosure" with scans of the parts and instructions, as well as perhaps labeling appropriate kits as "good for beginners in resin" will go a long way. I would also encourage all of the SMML'ers to include their own suggestions on the SMML on good beginner's kits, with some explanations and photos. I think you'd sell some kits to newcomers who are perhaps hesitant. Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: HR Fittings >> Can anyone comment about HR Fittings, in reference to quality, service (shipment time)? << I have used HR fittings on versions of Revell's Lionfish (the white metal cleats, bollards, anchor and other parts). The USS Blenny (SS-324) model I built that is on display in the sub section on the Steel Navy web site has HR fittings. Overall, the qualtiy is very good; they look much better than the plastic kit fittings. Inexpensive to my way of thinking, and I ordered direct and got reasonably fast service! Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: But first syndrome >> AT the end of day: Laundry is not done, newspapers are still on the floor, glass is still in the sink, bills are unpaid, checkbook is still missing, and the cat ate the remote control.... AND, when I try to figure out how come nothing got done all day, I'm baffled, because I KNOW I was BUSY ALL DAY!! I realize this condition is serious....and I should get help! BUT FIRST....I think I'll check my Email!!! << Hey Derek CUT THAT OUT!!!!!! You are infringing one of my trademarks - If you want to procrastinate in that manner you have to purchase a license from me!!! If you engage in any more such action I'll be forced to sue you - but hmmmm there's this book on the table I just noticed, and as I am about to reach for it I recall that it's been a while since my last iced coffee . . . . . . Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Barton B Cox Subject: Potemkin and Eisenstein's film According to the book Battleships of World War one it states that the hulk of the Potemkin was actually used for the movie. I have a copy of the movie and was very impressed by the feeling of motion and a high speed sea chase were achieved by clever editing and close shots of the bow of a ship at speed and close-ups of reciprocating steam engine machinery in motion add to the effect. I think Anthony Preston is the book's author. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "lcp9" Subject: Kit instructions As a producer of 1/700 resin kits I would like to add my 2 cents to the incipient war on kits and their instructions. Drawing out a set of instructions has always been a pain in the butt. After taking all the time and effort to research and lovingly make every single piece of the newest kit, I'm heartily sick of looking at them. To then have to draw them out and arrange them in the necessary order so that some one who may have never seen the ship in question, and hasn't spent several months contemplating the individual parts and their relationship to each other, is sheer torture. BUT.......I think it needs to be done, and I think it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to do it right. After all, that person buying the kit in question worked hard for the money he/she's shelled out for that kit and deserves your best effort. Also this might be the first resin kit this modeler has ever attempted and we ALL want repeat customers!!! So go ahead and say what you think about the instructions, the engineering, or any thing else regarding the kit you've purchased. As long as you're civil, honest, and are offering constructive criticism, you are doing the hobby a favor. David Angelo, LOOSE CANNON PRODUCTIONS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: isublett@home.com Subject: Re: S.E. Morison I wish I could have found the thing for $150 way back when. I bought the "History" because I had read enough to realize that almost everything written about the US Navy in WWII in the period 1950-1980 "borrowed"from Morison without mercy. Which was alright. He was famous-notorious- for doing the same likewise without acknowledgment (At least, I sort of got notice. I am forever "P. Sablet" in The European Discovery of America. The Northern Voyages - but it's still a great book). Some of Morison is outdated and some is just not right - he knew about "magic" but doesn't mention it - and a lot of the best part of the Pacific stuff is actually the work of Roger Pinot (SEM was utterly shameless as using as his own, the work of his graduate students), but the "History" is still first rate in its many of its opinions and wonderfully dramatic in lots of places. There is no substitute for it, and the one volume abstraction "The Two Ocean War" is really lame. I am not one of SEM's fans, but he was one historian who didn't shy away from doing big things, and he mostly did them well. After some of the crap that has lately appeared about professional historians here, it sort of feels good to give SEM a good word. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: isublett@home.com Subject: Re: Derek's "Why I can't get a model built" Cheer up, Derek. It only gets worse as you get older. I'll be 57 on the 4th of July, but first I've got to take care of... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "BRAD BARKER" Subject: Pt 2 LCP kits Hello everyone: Sorry about being late on the second review of the new LCP Kits or again I should say set. Between home improvements and a whole lot of everything else I have been busy. Then I read Mr.Abbey's gentle nudge so I thought I had better get this done. Next time do what my wife does,she gets behind me and shoves like well on with the review. As I said before this in not a kit it is a set of kits. It is a harbor set that includes a harbor dredge, four different work barges,a crane barge and by the info I have two Steele hulled 173' sub chasers. As before I do not have the photo-etch set that will be included. I do have a photo copy and with the same LCP style every thing is covered. Starting with the work barges these are very detailed items. One of the barges can be seen on page 51 of Classic Warship's Indianapolis book. Another barge has what appears to be crates,oil drums,spools of wire among other things molded to the deck. There is also a detached roof that goes with it.The third barge looks to me like a personnel barge (I may be wrong but thats what it looks like). The fourth barge is open at the top and the detail includes the ever present tires at both ends. The next items of this set are the crane barge and the dredge. They both are well detailed and both have photo-etch for the important parts. The last two kits of this set are the sub chasers. They are well detailed and the parts include the main guns, aa guns,life rafts. The superstructure is one piece and a resin mast is included. All of the depth charge racks are photo-etch. The entire set is the usual LCP quality. Light gray resin with very little flash. It appears the like always these kits scale out right on the nose. I would highly recommend this set to all of you that build 1/700. Even if you do not intend to do a diorama it is a change of pace. These will also be available after July 1, 2001. Like the first set these will be sold for $39.00 and will be carried by Pacific Front Hobbies. Bill Grunner has always done a great job of keeping on top of the new kits. This is why I go to Pacific Front Hobbies cause I can get a item when it is first produced and don't have to wait long for it. Again LCP dives into a little done subject. For me this is exciting because David Angelo gives us the modelers things we would like to have but never have time to scratchbuild or no other company wants to "take a chance on". I do hope to see LCP come up with other unusual subjects. For one I would like to see the USS Panay in 1/700. Well done LCP. Brad Barker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: brian selzler Subject: IJN Tenryu conversion Does anyone on the list recall the mention of an article somewhere on the conversion of a Hasegawa 1/700 Tenryu into a RN "C" class cruiser. It seemed kind of farfetched when I first heard of it but, apparently Tenryu and Tatsuta were built along lines comparable to the C's according to A.J.Watts. The problem is my inadequate memory has failed to remember where it appeared and by whom this conversion was performed. I would very much like to read it. Does it exist or am I just fantasizing? regards, Brian Hi Brian, Issue 10 of the Cruiser SIG has an article on converting the IJN Tenyru to HMS Delhi. Check out my review of the Cruiser SIG under book reviews on the SMML site. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Bbullock903@cs.com Subject: USS Atlanta question I am hoping someone can help me figure out what the proper AA fit would be for the Atlanta in late 1942. The Skywave kit I am building calls for three quad 40 mm, port, starboard and aft. Surprisingly, the picture on the back of the box shows her with 3 quad 1.1's in the same positions, but the kit does not come with 1.1's. The research I have done so far simply says that the Atlanta's had their 1.1's replaced with 40's "when they became available" but gives no specifics. To further add to my confusion in the Squadron "US Light Cruisers" book there are two pictures of the Juneau in late 1942, one details her aft mounted 1.1, and the other show in great detail her twin 40's port and aft! I would really appreciate it if someone could clear up what the correct armaments would be for Atlanta or Juneau the time of their loss. Thanks, Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "jmsr1990" Subject: Snyder & Short paint chip set Hi guys; I recently bought Snyder & Shorts' Kriegsmarine paint chip set #1 which is very well done, but I do have one question. It does not really tell me which color was used on the horizontal steel surfaces of the superstructure. Specificly the Baltic schemes. Does anyone out there have an answer for me? Thanks in advance. Jim Layman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Re: Book stores in NYC >> Going to NYC next week and wondered if there was a 'must see' book store with naval subjects? << The Military Bookman, at 23 East 93th street, just east of Central Park. Floor to ceiling military books, constantly changing. You can browse ahead at www.abebooks.com. Joe Poutre (recently hoist by his own sniping petard on Ebay) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Lou Meszaros Subject: Re: Agincourt I would like to thank all those list members who responded to my post about HMS Agincourt. I also feel that further explanation is needed. I do have general information's about the ship including drawings and photos, what I am trying to establish is if there are any firm references as to her configuration in 1916 so that I could scratch build the ship following the M.W.Williams article but to reconfigure it to her appearance at the Battle of Jutland. According to R.A.Burt there are differences between how the ship looked in 1915 and 1916. He writes that in 1916 after control top and mainmast tripod legs were removed and light, short pole fitted - was it done before or after the battle?? Further he writes that in 1916-17 fore control top was improved and enlarged with narrow front and 24inch SL removed from foremast and mounted on lower bridge - once again before or after Jutland and where exactly on lower bridge?? AFAIK the platforms over the aft control tower were reconfigured more than once during 1916 period. And how exactly did those platforms looked?? I appreciate that there may not be any clear answers to my questions, but hey - it would be great to know if there are. Sent this to a friend that has a 1/144th ship and did a good bit of research and this is what he found: I looked at one of the Military Blunders "battle cruiser disaster at Jutland" last night and they have a film of Agincourt. You should tell the guy on the list to contact the history channel's producers to see if he can find out the date and origin of the film. It had the "marble arch" and aft tripod remove. The short pole (like the QE's) was already fitted, the aft decks he writes of are shown fairly well also. The view is about 15 seconds moving up the port side from about 50 yards out. Its the only motion picture I have seen of her. Lou -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Darren Subject: SMML meeting at the Nat's??? Has anybody come up with a final plan for a SMML get together? I need to know before I leave Monday. Thanks! Darren -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: IPMS Nat's - get together? I know this has been discussed, but was a time and place ever decided on when we SMML'ies would try to get together? Take care, Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "hugh1lottie2" Subject: Chicago Nationals Loose Cannon will be at the IPMS Nationals and as a courtesy to the ship modelers we have ask Jag and Iron Ship wright to join us in having seminars or just plain ole B.S. Sessions for all of you. We will coordinate these gatherings at the Loose Cannon table. Anyone else wishing to help in any way please let us know. I believe we were all disappointed about not having any official ship programs as there have been in the past and this hopefully will get us together. My question to all of you is what subject would be of interest to you. What can we do to make you more successful as a ship modeler or us, as manufacturers, to produce better kits. Please let us know what you want to talk about. Anything goes except Caroline's yellow bikini, John has vetoed that. That still leaves us with the photos of Rusty in his Speedo. Hugh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Tom & Carolyn Harrison" Subject: Toms Modelworks USS Enterprise CVN-65 set update I would like to let everyone know I have completed the artwork, which is currently being filmed, for the etched brass hanger deck insert for the 1/350 Tamiya Enterprise kit. The hanger deck will come in three pieces along with a set of half-etched hanger doors to replace the doors in the kit. Due to the size of the set I will not be shocking this item, This will be a direct mail order item only and will be ordered from my supplier as needed. At this time I will accept pre-orders (Credit Card only) for the hanger deck set which should be shipping by mid July if not before. This set will be numbered TC3506 at $45.00 each. I will ship pre-orders free within the US, outside the US shipping will be based on weight. Should you have any questions please give up a call at 408-777-TOMS or check out our web site at: www.tomsmodelworks.com We have also provided Iron Shipwright with a special IPMS Nationals mail order discount form that can be picked up at their table. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SJantscher@aol.com Subject: Books for sale Hi All, I recently placed some bids on books at a closing library from a defense plant. Lo and behold I ended up with more books than I can use. I have Jane's Fighting Ships '78-79 & '84-85 ($16.00 each, two for $15.00 ea.). I also have Jane's Underwater Warfare Systems '89-90 (same format size as the ship books, but only 207pp.) $10.00. In addition, I have one copy of the 780pp+ Combat Fleets of the World '80-81 $15.00, and Weyer's Warships of the world 1968 handbook (414pp) ($12.00). For you ship guys out there, these might be just the thing to beef up your reference library. I'll ship them anywhere at cost. If things with wings or tracks do it for you, I have the following volumes for sale: Jane's All the World's Aircraft, '76-77,'79-80,'81-82, '82-83,'83-84,'84-85,'85-86,'86-87. I also have Jane's Armour and Artillery volumes '79-80,'83-84,86-87, and Jane's Weapon Systems volumes '70-71,'80-81,'88-89, ($16.00 each, two or more $15.00 ea.) Let me know if you're interested. Thanks again Steve Jantscher Minnesota, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume