Subject: SMML VOL 1301 Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:36:17 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Japanese submarine I-58 missing in action 2: K19 3: Re: HMS Agincourt 4: Re: But first synd 5: Re: Instructions 6: Re: Anyone familar with this company? 7: supply ship colors 8: Hipper Class Cruisers 9: Re: But first synd 10: The Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 11: Re: Kevin Wenker/Kit instructions 12: Liberty Ships and other merchant ships- colours 13: modern naval guns 14: Re: Liberty Ships and other merchant ships - colours 15: Resin versus plastic 16: Re: HMS Agincourt 17: Naval training center 18: Criticism of Model Kits 19: Liberty ship colors 20: AJ Press book - Tirpitz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Update from Pacific Front Hobbies -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: PaulSEisenberg@netscape.net Subject: Japanese submarine I-58 missing in action Dear SMML Members, My 1:200 scale scratch built model of I.J.N. Submarine I-58 was stolen from the Marin County Fair in California (USA) on Friday 16 JUN. If you should hear anything or see anything relating to this model I would be grateful if you would contact me. I-58 is in 1945 configuration with six Kaiten stored on deck. Thank you for any help in this matter. Paul Eisenberg -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Ian MacCorquodale" Subject: K19 K19 finished filming yesterday...Movie is expected to be released in January 2002. Julliette Class submarine is going to Halifax shipyards to be converted back to normal before the tow back to the restaraunt business in Florida....Terra Nova and Ojibwa head back to the boneyard, waiting to be sunk as artificial reefs. Judging from the ships used the movie will not be an accurate portrayal of the incident, however I agree with MWL, lets just be grateful they made it at all.....(and hope the plastic makers see a marketing angle!) have a good one.... Mac http://www.geocities.com/macamodius/ K19 http://www.geocities.com/macrachael/ Main Site -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Richard Simpson Subject: Re: HMS Agincourt Kurt wrote. >> The thread on the Agincourt has me wondering if anyone has ever drawn up a set of plans for her. What an impressive model she would be with those 7 main turrets! << Well, the Bowning Shipyards (www.ausbg.org/bsy) in Bowning, NSW, Australia offers a 1/144 scale hull of HMS Agincourt. It comes with plans. Now for the detail guy, the hull may not be so interesting as it is built to withstand being shot with 1/4" steel ball bearings travelling at 165 feet per second, so it is fairly tough (and basic). Contact Brett for details of the plans. Regards Richard Simpson www.ausbg.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: But first synd >> Iced coffee...........! A man after my own heart!!! I thought I was as strange as my wife says I am!!! << Actually according to recent archeological evidence, when the Greeks referred to nectar of the gods, they meant iced coffee!!! Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Instructions >> All of the kitmakers know their instrcutions are the weakest part of their kits. All of them have improved their instrcutions considerably over the last few years. << I think that is the key. The bottom line is that all of the kit manufacturers who hang out here and on Steel Navy Have been super receptive to suggestions. All have improved over time, both as a result of their own individual desire to produce better product and as a result of "helpful" suggestions from us. I also noted the vast improvement in ISW 's instructions in their recent kits. I have gently and politely chided Ted in the past, and he was the first to admit that instructions were his biggest area in need of improvement. He has certainly delivered with the instructions in his newest kits. Good companies generally respond to helpful suggestions; no one likes or responds well to slams. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Anyone familar with this company? >> I was doing a websearch on Cottage Industries Models, and came up with only their homepage, Steel Navy (aka warship.com) and this one: www.ajeffsvending.com But I can't connect to it. Anyone doing business with this guy? Or know if this link is valid, or if he has a new one? << If by Cottage Industries you meed the specific company, not the generic term, yes I can help you with both Try: http://www.modelersboatyard.com/cim/ As to the company, I have known the owner William Blackmore for a number of years and have purchased and built most of his kits. All are first rate. They are larger scale, ACW subjects with a tremendous amount of detail and copious instructions. The kits are in resin, white metal and some brass. Most have either full or partial interiors. You can see samples of his work on the SteelNavy site Gallery section under ACW subjects. Like most of the manufacturer's in this business, he fully supports his products and will help you out where-ever he can. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Christopher Bass Subject: supply ship colors >> On this subject - I understand British and Allied cargo ships, colliers, tankers, etc. were given a coat of overall grey in WWII? Is this correct? << Speaking of WWII supply ships, does anyone have paint scheme info on the German supply ships, like the Altmark or the Nordmark, specifically during their tours with their respective Panzerschiffe, Graf Spree and Scheer. Thanks for any info, Christopher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "william k code" Subject: Hipper Class Cruisers Hello Group, I recieved my copy of Heavy Cruisers of the Admiral Hipper Class last week..a little fathers day gift.. :) ,,it is a well rounded book on the subject of these Cruisers.. Id like to do my Heller 1/400 scale model of Prinz Eugen as she surrendered in May 1945.. The book covers the placement of her 4cm flak but really isnt clear on what these 40mm single mounts looked like or were the ready ammo was for the guns in front of the breakwater... no doubt this gun doesnt exist in this scale..sigh.. I'll have to scratch lots of them for this time frame... any ideas were i can get an exploded view of this gun to aid me in this quest? I see her radar on the fighting top was a FuMB 26..anybody make this in 1/400? Still plugging away on HMS Victory... main deck fitted and starting to step her lower masts..she is quite the beast! cheers Bill Code -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Re: But first synd >> Iced coffee...........! A man after my own heart!!! I thought I was as strange as my wife says I am!!! << Hmmmm, must be a shipmodeling thing. Just this morning I had a large (read industrial size) Dunkin' Donuts Iced Coffee......regular of course. (For those of you who live outside of Eastern Massachusetts, a regular coffee is with cream and sugar) John Sheridan The only human to defeat the Minbari is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else. : Delenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Glenn and Kelly Neklason" Subject: The Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Hi All, Does anyone have a copy of Rene J. Francillon's book "The Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club" (a rhetorical question, I'm sure)? I don't, and if someone wouldn't mind looking up some combat loss information for me, I'd appreciate it. Contact me off list. Thanks, Glenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Re: Kevin Wenker/Kit instructions >> I absolutely agree 110%. Sorry for not being as clear as I should have been. I was more reacting to John's soapbox defend-the-manufacturer-at-all-costs diatribe. << Now, now Kevin let's talk truth here. When the whole Viking nonsense was going on, I was slamming them for making crappy kits and cheating customers. So there! See! I don't defend all of them. Just most of them. And why not ? They all produce excellent kits of subjects *I* want. I have yet to be dissapointed with any resin shipmodel kit yet. The stuff coming out from WEM, Commanders, BWN and Classic Warships is stunning. Yes it is expensive, but worth it in my opinion. Also, all of the above mentioned companies are approachable and help is simply a quick email away! OTOH, ICM has dissapointed me time and time again with their vaporware products. I do own one of their kits and I hope someday they make more. But I do not hold my breath waiting for them to release their next kit simply because they keep pushing the release dates. When a company does this is it not a good sign that the product is not going to make it to market. The latest rumblings from them sounds like they are just trying to keep generating buzz for their non-products. I know not to expect anything in 1/350th from Tamiya anytime in the next 10 years. I do have the 1/700th Indianapolis and it is quite good. But since I mostly model in 1/350th, I already have what little they offer. >> Now, that said, there are some such as WEM who include instructions which are better than any plastic model kit I know of. << That's right. But you've got to remember not everyone can draw. Most of these kitmakers can make beautiful kits in 3D but are simply not very good graphic artists. John Sheridan The only human to defeat the Minbari is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else. : Delenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Liberty Ships and other merchant ships- colours >> I am currently finishing off the two Skywave Liberty kits. Skywave state the decks are Blue and the sides dark grey. Their box art suggests that the superstructure is a light grey and the hull sides a darker grey, contradicting their painting instructions. << I think you are looking at a painting where the artist took some liberties (pun intended). >> I find it difficult to believe the deck was blue except perhaps those that went to the Pacific. Seems to me #4 Grey 20 was more likely in the Atlantic? But I have no clues as to the superstructure and sides - only photos I have seen are B&W and I am no good in interpreting shades. << Nope. The standard wartime deck color for USN ships was indeed, 20-B Deck Blue. As for vertical surfaces, if it is dark gray (aka Ocean Gray) then the camouflage is MS 14. If it is lighter gray (Haze Gray) then it is MS 13. Both were very common camouflage schemes for Libery ships in WWII. >> On this subject - I understand British and Allied cargo ships, colliers, tankers, etc. were given a coat of overall grey in WWII? Is this correct? << Yes. Merchant ships were commonly either MS 13 or MS 14. If they were intended to go into a war zome (such as an invasion fleet), they might have been repainted to MS 21 (Overall Navy Blue) or into a disruptive pattern of MS 31, 32, or 33 or simply left their normal color. Photographs are they key to finding out which scheme you want to model. John Sheridan The only human to defeat the Minbari is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else. : Delenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: modern naval guns There are some pictures of modern naval guns at: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9089/page9.html These include a Vickers 4.5 inch Mk 8 that has a bulge midway down the barrel, and another bulge at the end of the barrel. I've seen similar bulges on some tank guns. My guess is that the bulge at the end of the barrel is a recoil reducer. I have no guess about the function of the bulge in the middle of the barrel. Can somebody tell me what these bulges are for and how they work? Thanks, Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Vincent Mccullough" Subject: Re: Liberty Ships and other merchant ships - colours John, From all the research that I've done, Liberties appeared to be uniformly Ocean Gray from water line up. The only color on the ships appear to have been the interior of the whaleboats, which were orange, and the tarps covering the hatches, which (I think!) were either brown or olive drab. I originally had a question on the boats. I had visited the John W. Brown, which is moored in Baltimore, and the interiors of it's boats were international orange. I wasn't sure about whether this was a later color until I saw a color film taken by an over flight of, I believe, the Normandy beachhead. For one brief instant the plane flashed over a Liberty and, yup, they were orange. When you paint the model, the Ocean Gray is going to seem awfully dark, but if you look at photos of Liberties lying at anchor with other ships (including Victories) along side, it's clear that they really were much darker than other ships. BTW, in painting the anti-fouling paint on the bottom, be careful of the painting instructions that may have come with the kit. Liberties had NO boot topping, and the anti-fouling paint only covers the bottom 10-11 feet of the hull. I determined this from studying bow-on photos of Liberties being launched, where you can read the draft markings and determine how high up the anti-fouling paint comes on the hull. I know it seems odd, but when you see a Liberty running empty, it almost seems to ride on top of the water. The prop sticks up above the surface almost to the shaft. Good luck! Vince McCullough Member Washington Ship Model Society Nautical Research Guild -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Resin versus plastic John Sheridan is right and wrong at precisely the same time. Fact is that we are buying resin kits because those models are unlikely to ever appear as plastic kits and (right or wrong) we are prepared to go to some extra lenghts to get the model we want. I have seen people pampering,rebuilding and superdetailing a dead duck resin kits which should have been bined as soon as they have come out of the box.But because it was a model they wanted very much,they were prepared to put into it as much (or more) work as the original designer. On the other hand resin kit producers are not giving us any favours. I am a designer myself and althrou I am not connected with ships or armor models I do know that a great number of kits are produced because designer himself wanted a model not available commecially and after putting all the hard labour into the process has decided to share his baby with the rest of the public. If they make some money out of it -great, if they don't -it is sad,but not a big deal really. If company folds it is mostly because designer forgot to do the basic market research beforehand and/or thought that his idea and final result are terrific but he was the only person to think so. Lets not beat about the bush here -a lot (and I stress "a lot") of resin and white metal kits are "vanity products" made for the personal gratification of the designer with rest of the public taking only the second place. The poor instuctions of some (again stressed "some") producers are the very case in point. The designer knows exactly which part goes where,he can build the kit with no instructions what-so-ever. For him the work is done and if the rest of us poor sods can't follow his mastery that is just too damn bad. I am NOT trying to bundle all resin producers into one cathegory,there are the great ones and the good ones,I am writting about the bad and the indifferent ones only. Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Jim Warsher Subject: Re: HMS Agincourt >> To my knowledge no such a set of plans was ever drawn. I have been interested in warships for more than 20 years now and I have never come across plans of Agincourt even thou I have catalogues of all the commecialy available plans of British warships of WW I. << You might try looking under Brazil [or even Turkey] for the original elevations and detail drawings for Agincourt. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Darren Subject: Naval training center Does anybody know if the Naval Training center north of Chicago has a museum of any sort? I'm looking for info on the paddlewheel carriers used for training pilots on the great lakes and thought this may be a good start. Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "William Oreto" Subject: Criticism of Model Kits I have been reading the string concerning "kit instructions". If a person wishes to post to a public forum before speaking to the manufacturer that is their business. Its putting the "cart before the horse" I agree. John is right to contact the manufacturer but sometimes there is an honest break down in communication by whoever's fault. Many a problem with a vendor or manufacturer has been resolved on this board. Our criticism has helped improve the quality of the kits of the resin manufacturers. Would hate to see this board loose that capability or see opinions censored. I have also found it most comforting when shopping for supplies or kits to make purchases from dealers who have "satisfaction guaranteed return policies". Don't like it send it back. On another note last year John Sheridan blasted my opinion piece calling Aoshima's 1/700 mold injected North Carolina kit "crap" and imploring the resin manufacturers to take the gamble and replace it with a better quality kit. Regia Marina must have heard my plea. Thank you. 2002 will be a great year for 1/700 USN fast BBs thanks to them. The quality of their kits will be superior to Aoshima and Hasegawa. A learned three things while jousting words with JS. 1. When you speak you have to listen. 2. Everyone's level of model skills varies therefore one modeler may consider a kit horrible, while another may consider it exquisite. 3. Speak your mind and don't be intimidated. My two cents.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: cfrieden@calpoly.edu Subject: Liberty ship colors John, This question is appropriate, as I just got back from painting a real Liberty ship! The Skywave Liberty ship is for a US Navy ship, so the painting instructions don't apply to most Liberty ships. The merchant ships were painted overall light gray. The Navy ships were painted in several measures. I hope this helps. Regards, Chris Friedenbach -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: GAZWE@aol.com Subject: AJ Press book - Tirpitz Just received number 15 AJ PRESS book of the TIRPITZ part number 16 is on order, of course its in polish no problem i am fluent not. Its the cover shot of TIRPITZ in, well panzer tank camouflage she looks good. Anyway a question for the board seening,as SCHARNHORST had a quad 20mm mount on the forward 5.9 mount would it not have been the same for TIRPITZ. And another how do you bend P/E around the forward barrettes and bridge area. Anyway i also ordered the warship pictorial KONGO book man said that they were only printing a 1000 so you better get in quick. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Update from Pacific Front Hobbies Coming very soon! From Samek Models - 1/700 HMS Eskimo @ $25.00 1/700 USS Texas @ $59.00 From Grand Prix Publishing - Details of Imperial Japanese Navy Battleships Vol. #1 @ $35.00 Vol. #2 @ $35.00 From Osprey Publishing - Jutland 1916 - $TBA From Classic Warships - 1/700 HMS Lion (re-release with corrections) @ $70 August 1/350 USS Tennessee (1941) @ $250.00 July 1/350 USS Brooklyn (1942) @ $205.00 August 1/350 USS Helena (1943) @ $205.00 August Plus continued re-releases of all other products. From Classic Warships Publishing - Warship Pictorial #12 Benson/Gleaves Class Destroyers @ $15.95 Warship Pictorial #14 USS Wichita CA-45 @ $11.95 Remember! Pacific Front Hobbies is truly your one stop shop for the ship modeler! Please see the updates posted on SteelNavy.com and call us for more information. E-mails are for ordering only. Thanks, Bill Gruner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume