Subject: SMML VOL 1322 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 01:44:28 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: British Warship Plans 2: Re: Nationals Ship Categories 3: Re: Changing the rules 4: Re: Tom's Arizona 5: Re: Hypothetical ships 6: Re: Real ships 7: Rigging Material 8: Detailing A Fletcher's bulkheads 9: Re: Enterprise CV-6 assistance 10: Red Paint and Blood 11: Re: Nationals Ship Categories 12: float your boat 13: CV-6 Assistance 14: Re: Fletcher Plans (aka Keith's Indecision) 15: Painting 1:1250 Ships 16: Re: conning towers 17: AP507C 18: NYC Maritime/Military Heritage Questions 19: Dimensions for AFDB-1 20: Heller HMS Victory 21: HMS Zealous 22: French museum -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Hi all, Well the vote for the name change is in and counted. Everyone who responded want the name to remain the same. Shane & Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ZMzimmerman@cs.com Subject: British Warship Plans AFAIK the Raven and Roberts book was a one off book(unfortunetly).If any one knows of a second volume I would really like to know about it. Michael Zimmerman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: Nationals Ship Categories >> Just wondering - what category at the Nationals would the Delphis 1/700 Aquila go into? Or, if someone modified a Tamiya or Italeri Hood into her projected reconstruction (with new bridge, secondary turrets, etc.), what category would it go into? I would hope neither would go into a non-ship category like "Hypotheticals." << Under the current rule if it was never commissioned, it is hypothetical, except for the CV Graf Zepplin which has been left in the ship group through an oversight. This is exactly why we need a rule change! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Changing the rules >> Are you for or against changing the category and/or the rules? One post leans for, then the next is against. << Changing both the rules and the category name. I already have support from one of the other Contest Committee members for changing the rule and the category name. I'll keep everyone posted. I specifically want to add hypothetical ships to all the ship categories. That would fix the problem once and for all. However, we still have to sell the idea to the rest of the committee as well as the Chairman. They are really hung up on this historical accuracy thing. I have no problem at all with historical accuracy, but to move a model into the hypothetical categories just because of its marking is (IMHO) ludicrous. Rusty White 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention Chairman OKC IN 2003! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Tom's Arizona >> Does anyone know what happened to the Tom's Modelworks 1921 Arizona and can the new Banner kit easily be backdated to that era? What is the possibility of using the Tom's brass to backdate...cage masts, etc? Tom could have a new market for an older product line component! << Tom's Modelworks Arizona is now being produced through Iron Shipwright. Rusty White 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention Chairman OKC IN 2003! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Hypothetical ships >> Just wondering - what category at the Nationals would the Delphis 1/700 Aquila go into? Or, if someone modified a Tamiya or Italeri Hood into her projected reconstruction (with new bridge, secondary turrets, etc.), what category would it go into? I would hope neither would go into a non-ship category like "Hypotheticals." << Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Aquila model. However, as the rules are currently written, if it wasn't commissioned with a hull number, it goes into hypothetical. Same goes for the Hood. If it never was built (according to the rules) it could possibly go into the hypothetical categories as well. There would be some real arguments on the Hood though. Since it was commissioned, the final word would be with the Head Judge. I know it would go into hypothetical though. That's why I want to get hypothetical added to the category names and adjusted in the rules. This has happened the last three consecutive years to three different models. Rusty White IPMS/USA Head Ship Judge 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention Chairman OKC IN 2003! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Real ships >> To me, this is an exercise in logic which boils down to: 1 - Real Ships (built or unbuilt) 2 - Everything else Think about it. Don't know if that'd require a rules change, but USS Montana (or Republic XF-103, for that matter) shouldn't have to be lumped with stuff from Dune, etc. << CORRECT! You and I feel the same way. Rusty White 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention Chairman OKC IN 2003! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Geoff Hanson" Subject: Rigging Material Just a little more detail on nylon for rigging which may help, the term tippet is an old fly fishing word for the tip of the leader in fly fishing, usually finer than the main leader to make it less visible. The terms 6x or 8x go back even further and are not now used in the U.K., but IIRC are from when cat gut was drawn and come from the number of times the gut was drawn through the die to produce the diameter. Nylon fishing line is made in a wide range of strengths and diameters. I have listed some useful diameters below.There are smaller diameters available in Europe. It is sometimes worth relating these diameters tothe scale you are working in. If you need anything above this it tends to be stiffer and more difficult to work with. Chart courtesy of Pete Drennans' web site in England. The diameters do vary slightly depending on manufacturer, but not significantly. This is Kamasan Bayer Perlon Breaking Strain 2.1lbs, 0.95Kg Daimeter 0.14mm Breaking Strain 2.6lbs, 1.18Kg Diameter 0.16mm Breaking Strain 3.2lbs, 1.45Kg Diameter 0.18mm Breaking Strain 4.4lbs, 2.00Kg Diameter 0.20mm Breaking Strain 5.0lbs, 2.25Kg Diameter 0.22mm Breaking Strain 6.0lbs 2.75Kg Diameter 0.25mm Regards Geoff Hanson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Loren Perry Subject: Detailing A Fletcher's bulkheads >> Ok I am starting come down with a serious case of AMS. I am building two 350 Tamiya Fletchers (Fletcher and La Vallette 1942) for my "Moon over Guadacanal" dio. I want to decorate the decks and bulkheads, because I feel in this scale they just look to bare, they need something. My summer issue of MSJ came yesterday and Loren Perry's build article on the Charles Ausburne was the final straw that pushed me over the edge. << I just got my Sept. 2001 issue of FineScale Modeler - wait til you see Bob Steinbrunn's outstanding 1/192 scale USS Kidd. It'll make you want to take up knitting. Loren Perry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: stillmo@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: Enterprise CV-6 assistance Mr. H. Stockton: Re: CV 6 ENTERPRISE build.... Its never how much you PAID for the kit, its all about the hours of enjoyment of the build and R and D, and modifications, and of course the finished paint job. What exactly do you mean by a "quick build"? I built my CV 6 along time ago, utilizing numerouse referemces of which there are many for that model, and you seem to have a firm grasp into research so far. A dazzled and weathered CV 6, with bridge and radar modifications, is NOT a quick build, and you could put as much as 100 hours into that. Or you could do it in 20 and compare the results. A '"quick build" to me would be a small 700 scale PC, sub, or harbor craft, but an aircraft carrier that bristles in detail everywhere can be quite demanding and I would urge you to rethink the methodology here and just take your time, do the research, then you can brag to your friends how long it took, and the blood, sweat and tears involved........its sappy but it works. Ray D. Bean -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Kelvin Mok" Subject: Red Paint and Blood This comes a bit late as I was searching for the published source, Scientific American Dec 1984 issue. The Spanish Ship Of The Line by John D. Harbron. Quote: "The orlop was the safest deck in the ship. Consequently it housed the surgeon's facilities for treating wounds and performing the many immediate amputations necessary during the bloody sea battles. On English ships the orlop was usually painted bright red to hide the rivers of blood that flowed from the surgeon's table. On the Santisima Trinidad a large crucifix was mounted on the bulkhead above the table, a symbol of the religious conviction for which many a man gave an arm, a leg or a life. The orlop also housed a changing magazine, which stored premeasured and ready-to-use powder charges for the cannons. In order to counter the tendency of the ship to roll, the hull of the Spanish navio was broader across the beam of the lower gun deck than it was across the middle and upper gun decks. Accordingly the lower gun deck was the stablest one, and it housed the largest cannon on the ship, a 10-foot-long killer that fired 32-pound shot. The Santisima Trinidad carried 30 of these cannons, 15 on each side. At close range its shot could penetrate an oak hull three feet thick, and it could cause even more damage to an enemy ship when the shot was doubled or tripled. At long range the 32-pounder could occasionally hit a target a mile and a half away. In addition to the guns, the middle and upper gun decks included most of the meager living quarters allotted to the crew. Hammocks were slung between the guns, and they had to be stowed prior to battle. A galley was placed amidships, and there a single stove was available to the crew for cooking food and boiling water. The Spanish navies were also excessively crowded: Spanish naval tactics called for a large number of troops, which gave rise to a frequently unmanageable mix of landlubbers and professional sailors. At the Battle of Trafalgar the Santisima Trinidad was severely overmanned with 1,200 sailors and marines, many of whom were still recovering from the epidemics of malaria and cholera that had swept southern Spain between 1802 and 1804. In comparison the English first rate H. M.S. Victory, which was itself overcrowded, carried only 900 men, all of whom were professional seamen. The living quarters of the officers aboard the navio were quite plush, reflecting the strict hierarchical structure of Spanish society. Officers had their own cabins, and they lived and dined in almost the same comfort they were accustomed to on land. The table in the after cabin in the stern was set with good food and wine. Fine cabinetry held china, decanters of port and navigational charts. All this luxury was frequently churned to rubble in a fight, however, particularly given the English practice of maneuvering their ships for sweeping salvos at the stern of a navio. A large crew was necessary even outside of battle because almost all the work of running the ship was carried out by hand. At the beginning of a voyage everything on board, including ship's stores, ammunition, provisions and even the heaviest cannons, had to be manhandled into place. When the ship was under way, sailors were constantly sent aloft to furl and unfurl the dozens of sails. Pumps mounted on the middle gun deck to keep the bilge at a safe level were operated by hand, and during battle additional pumps were kept running to put out fires and to wash blood off the decks. Pulleys on board lightened the load somewhat, and capstans were used to lower and weigh anchors and to trim heavy sails; they too, however, were operated by hand. " JOHN D. HARBRON ("The Spanish Ship of the Line") is a foreign affairs analyst for the Thomson Newspaper Group in Canada with a long- standing interest in ships and the sea. He is a graduate of the University of Toronto; after postgraduate work at the University of Havana he entered the Royal Canadian Navy. As an officer he taught naval history at the Canadian Naval College at Royal Roads in British Columbia. Following his retirement from the navy he wrote for a number of American, Canadian and British publications before joining the Thomson Group. Harbron holds various distinctions, including the title of commander of the Order of Isabel la Cat6lica of Spain. For help in his research for the present article he is indebted to the Museo Naval of the Spanish Navy in Madrid and in particular to its director, CapitAn de Navio Jos6 Maria ZumalacArregui. The original article is well written, crammed with details and has very imformative drawings of what makes a warship of that time. I have scanned that into 8 pages in .jpg format and you can get a copy of it by emailing me offline. Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Nationals Ship Categories >> Just wondering - what category at the Nationals would the Delphis 1/700 Aquila go into? Or, if someone modified a Tamiya or Italeri Hood into her projected reconstruction (with new bridge, secondary turrets, etc.), what category would it go into? I would hope neither would go into a non-ship category like "Hypotheticals." << I am not an IPMS member, so pardon my ignorance in this discussion, but all this debate about hypothetical ship models causes me to ask. What does IPMS do in the aircraft categories with Luftwaffe '46 and other proposed but never built aircraft models? Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: EBENCARL89@aol.com Subject: float your boat hello everyone, i need some help on my model of the liner queen elizabeth by airfix. is there anyone that made decals for all the missing windows on the model ??? or do i have to paint them in ?? and what is the best way to make it float?? i need something for ballast in the bottom so it floats. i want to float my boat lol . thanks for all your help! ed wilde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "William Oreto" Subject: CV-6 Assistance The Tamiya kit is all right. Its a cheap well made kit that's not accurate or to scale. For $15.00 who is going to know or care--right? I'm sorry for the tongue and cheek remark but think about how world history may have been different if it wasn't for the Yorktown Class carriers. The Enterprise was one of America's most famous warships and it went to the scrappers and not an accurate kit of it anywhere. I built the Tamiya Enterprise kit and I had to purchase an extra Hornet kit to bash just so I could make the Enterprise barely appear in her Santa Cruz rig. After that I didn't think it worth while to purchase after market photo-etch or weapons. For the amount of money I was considering to spend to upgrade and scratch build parts, purchase after market weapons and photo-etch a could have purchased an accurate resin kit. Too bad none exists. Bill Oreto -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Fletcher Plans (aka Keith's Indecision) Keith Butterley wrote: I can't make a decision!!! >> ... I want to decorate the decks and bulkheads, because I feel in this scale they just look to bare, they need something. I went to the Floating Drydcok to check out their plans, but there are a number of Fletcher plans, and I don't know which one(s) to buy. Can somebody point me to which plan(s) would best suit my needs? << Keith, To detail the kit, I strongly recommend "The Floating Drydock's Fletcher Class Plan Book". Where many of the drawings listed for sale include wonderful hull shape and lines, that is the one thing you don't need. The Planbook has lots of topside close-up photos and scrap drawings of specific areas of detail. Also good drawings for the early Guadalcanal period you need, with 1.1" guns and no 40mms. It also includes a nice list of camouflage schemes for many of the class, in case you don't have it from a different source. Rick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Painting 1:1250 Ships I recently purchased the Neptune 1:1250 Tennessee from PacFront. The level of detail is just unbelievable. So how does one begin to paint these things? My plan is to paint the model as the California in her Ms-32/16d scheme. I know...the model isn't exactly right for the California (there were a few minor differences), but it's close enough. I have a diagram showing the camo scheme, but I'm puzzed over the best method to do this. I don't have an airbrush, masking doesn't seem to be an option (lest I risk damaging the details), so a brush seems to be the logicial choice. Another problem I'm looking at is needing to thin out the primer finish near the stern. It was applied too thickly, so it's cracking badly and has almost completely filled the port stern 20mm tub. What's the best way of cleaning this up without destroying the detail or having to completely reprime the model. Thanks in advance for any/all suggestions, ideas, etc. Derek Wakefield -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: GGeGratz@aol.com Subject: Re: conning towers Since 1865 several turret ships built by Lairds and others already had conning towers. Huascar is one, Bahia and Lima Barros etc.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: AP507C Hi Michael AP507C can be managed two ways with Humbrol paints, either straight No 147 or a mix of 75 per cent 34 with 25 per cent 64. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: MADGJEISEN@aol.com Subject: NYC Maritime/Military Heritage Questions Folks: A few questions about New York City's Maritime/Military Heritage: 1) Does anyone know the name of the old fort at the base of the Verrazano Narrows bridge (on the Staten Island side) and can anyone provide me a reference (internet site or book) that could provide information about it (historical background, etc)? 2) I've noticed a number of times while driving along the Outerbridge Crossing on Staten Island a large (and fairly old) ferry boat sitting high and dry in the middle of a large vacant field on the landward side of the outerbridge crossing. It has been sitting there, rotting away, for years. Anyhone know how it got there? 3) Finally, I noticed a couple of times at a point where the Outerbridge Crossing runs relatively close to the shoreline (perhaps near the Huegenot Avenue exit?) that you can glimpse from the road a rotting series of piers, with some very old tug boats that look like they might be 50+ years old rotting away in place. Anyone know the background to the piers and the tugs, and how old might they be? Thanks in advance for any help in resolving these questions that have been nagging at me for years. Yours truly, Mike E. (a former Noo Yawka) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: BECJPARKER@aol.com Subject: Dimensions for AFDB-1 Need some help, dose anyone have the dimensions of a AFDB-1 dry dock or know who would have a set of plans for one? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Joel Labow Subject: Heller HMS Victory Here's a question for the sailing navy crowd. I recently acquired the Heller 1/100 HMS Victory kit. In general this is a remarkably accurate and well-engineered model which appears to follow the prototype closely as she appeared in 1805 HOWEVER there is no entry port on the middle gundeck (just another gunport). Both the Longridge book and model and the McKay AOTS show an entry port, and the ship as reconstructed at Portsmouth has the entry port as well. Can anyone enlighten me as to how Victory appeared in 1805...entry port or no? Thanks, Joel Labow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Colin Ritchie Subject: HMS Zealous The following a request for info from one of the members of our local modelling club. He specialised in Israeli aircraft , but appears to be branching out! "Any idea on a kit that can represent the Zealous, any scale? The ship was converted in Cherbourg and sold to the Israeli Navy. It was sunk by the Egyptians with a surface to surface missile from a corvette I believe in 1967.." Colin Ritchie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Pleugers3@aol.com Subject: French museum I am going to France in September and would like to visit the Air and Naval Museums. I cannot find the location of either in the travel books. Where do I go? Paul Leugers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume