Subject: SMML VOL 1323 Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:06:31 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: British Warship Plans 2: Re: Heller Victory 3: Re: Nationals Ship Categories 4: French Museum 5: Hypothetical Ships 6: Re: Nationals Ship Categories 7: Re: float your boat 8: Heller Victory kit 9: Sub info 10: Hypothetical IPMS/HMS Zealous 11: Re: Rigging Material 12: Airfix Queen Elizabeth windows 13: HMS Victory 14: Painting 1:1250 Ships 15: Re: few questions about New York City's Maritime/Military Heritage 16: Re: French museum 17: Re: Cleaning up primer 18: HH-3F Pelican Heliocopter 19: Gold Medal Models new 1/350 USS Arizona set 20: IJN Landing ship No. 103 class 21: decals for wooden decks? 22: Hypotheticals 23: Re: CV-6 Assistance 24: Rigging Material 25: Luftwaffe '46,and other hypotheticals 26: Re: Rigging Material 27: Re: NYC 28: Pomorsky Souvenir -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Trade: ICM Grosser Kurfurst for Revell Flower -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Dimi Apostolopoulos Subject: Re: British Warship Plans >> AFAIK the Raven and Roberts book was a one off book(unfortunetly). If any one knows of a second volume I would really like to know about it. << Michael, Unfortunately there was only one volume published. Dimi -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "william k code" Subject: Re: Heller Victory Yes the Heller model is Quite nice, The molding in the hull matchs closley the lines in Mckays Anatomy of the Ship and Longridges The Anatomy of Nelsons ships...the middle deck entry port is the only problem...As near as I can tell the model is of Victory after Trafalgar. She had temporary repairs done at Gibralter and was layed up in the midway for two years after that,,,she was then downgraded to a 2nd rate in 1808 and refit for Baltic service (this is were I think she lost her entry port) good luck on your Victory...she is quite the plastic beast! Im still plugging away at mine :) cheers Bill Code -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Richa5011@aol.com Subject: Re: Nationals Ship Categories Mike Settle asked: >> I am not an IPMS member, so pardon my ignorance in this discussion, but all this debate about hypothetical ship models causes me to ask. What does IPMS do in the aircraft categories with Luftwaffe '46 and other proposed but never built aircraft models? << All of the Luftwaffe 46 aircraft are put into hypothetical, as are things like the F-103...anything that did not exist in a completed state gets lumped together. I agree with Rusty that ships should be judged as and with ships, regardless of if they were ever completed. That includes Aquila, Hood 1943, Lexington class battlecruisers, Habakuk and stealth aircraft carriers. I do understand why the Hypothetical category was created, I just don't happen to agree with it's all encompassing scope. Rusty is taking point on the effort to change the existing rule and I trust he will succeed. I do believe that this change would enhance the quality of the competition with in the ship division. For what it is worth, that is my view... Nat Richards IPMS 13182 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: John Fraser Subject: French Museum Dear Paul, Lars Bruzelius has an eccelent website which includes all the nautical museums in the world (if there are any that's not I certainly don't know it) for the list of continents go to http://pc-78-120.udac.se:8001/WWW/Nautica/Museums/MM.html for the list for France go to http://pc-78-120.udac.se:8001/WWW/Nautica/Museums/mmeufr.html The Musee maritime in the Palais de Chaillot in Paris is wonderful and outside you get one of the best views of the Eiffel tower to boot!!! Don't ask me about things that fly I haven't a clue, though I have heard about a mixed scientific museum that has a plane and Foucalt's pendulum or something like that. Hope this helps!!! Cheers, John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Hypothetical Ships Too many real ships, upon which real, solid information is lacking (CSS Manassas ... no known plans exist but part of the wreck has been recovered) or which construction was statred, but cancelled (USS United States CC-6), suspended (USS Hawaii CB-3) or which saw dramatic design changes in the course of the construction (USS Forrestal CVA-59) would be forced into the hypothetical category based upon the current rules. Rule from IPMS Chicago website: 3. HYPOTHETICAL (Categories 820, 821). Models that do not represent a factual, physical prototype, except for Science Fiction and Fantasy, must be entered in one of these hypothetical categories. Models placed in category 820 are based on kits, with the hypothetical component being the result of markings, finish, etc. Models placed in category 821 are hypothetical as a result of being scratchbuilt or kit bashed. By these rules, the ships moved to hypothetical were moved erroniously, in my opinion. The two ships in question did represent factual, physical items, not mere prototypes. The current rule application is that if the ship was never commissioned, then it goes to hypothetical. This is fine for warships but what about private vessel which are never commissioned? Another error in the way the rules are interpreted is the Willy Ley class of sci-fi ships from the 1950s. The current concensus is that these were serious engineering designs and belong in hypothetical. The rules for Space/Sci-Fi state that a kit can vary "from real vehicles to complete flights of fancy" What is the difference between something designed and showcased by General Electric and George Lucas? As for the requirement of 820 to be "Kit-based (spurious markings on standard kit)" will haunt the comittee someday. What if somebody puts the wrong markings on a WW2 kit and nobody notices? How many judges know which airlines never operated a particular craft. The Hypothetical specifically excludes Sci-Fi, yet I have seen a 2001 Orion in different markings in 820. Does it exclude Sci-Fi or not. Does alternate schemes (not kit markings) make a sci-fi kit suddenly hypothetical. If so, over two-thirds of the sci-fi kits this year should have been moved. The solution is to clarify the rules. There are too many holes in which I can think to sabotage the hypothetical category. Sure, ships like the JAG future Carrier do not belong in the ship category (as the rules stand), but should it be in Hypo or Sci-Fi? (it was media based - Popular Mechanics) I would propose a rules clarification that a ship, so long as it "represent[s] a factual, physical prototype" or another real ship/design on which construction was started would remain in the ship category. This could be remedied by simply explaining this part of the rule in a certain light to the judges and head judges. This years cases of the two ships moved both fit within this guideline. Would an older kit of the CSS Hunley now be moved to hypothetical because we now know the true configuration of the ship? In fact, since ships are not "prototyped" as such, this would be reduced to factual. What about a questionable private boat or ship design? Since private vessels are not commissioned, do they get moved? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: Nationals Ship Categories Mike Settle writes: >> I am not an IPMS member, so pardon my ignorance in this discussion, but all this debate about hypothetical ship models causes me to ask. What does IPMS do in the aircraft categories with Luftwaffe '46 and other proposed but never built aircraft models? << The 820/821 categories were created to deal with the Luftwaffe 1946 airplanes after people got upset when models got moved to either Sci-Fi (where they belong) or Misc. 820 - kit based models with spurious markings 821 - scratchbuilt and conversions Under the rules, a Concorde with American Airlines titles would go into 820 right beside a beautiful 1/48 Essex painted in a spurious camo measure. For that matter, if the airplanes have the stars on upside down, that is a spurious scheme and MUST be moved according to the rules! I have seen the 2001 Orion in Pan Am markings in Sci Fi and in Branniff markings in 820 at the same show!! Seems that there is a hypothetical branch of Sci-Fi even though the rule specifically exempt Sci-Fi items! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: VONJERSEY@aol.com Subject: Re: float your boat >> i need some help on my model of the liner queen elizabeth by airfix. is there anyone that made decals for all the missing windows on the model ??? or do i have to paint them in ?? and what is the best way to make it float?? i need something for ballast in the bottom so it floats. i want to float my boat lol. << Well i can't help you with regard to floating your queen elizabeth model but i can sugest that your go to www.titanicmodel.com on this site there have information for ordering custom made Queen Elizabet window decals made for the airfix /600 model. i ordered some a few months ago and they seem perfect. havn't actually applied them just yet though.......time issues. good luck -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Dave Shirlaw Subject: Heller Victory kit Forwarded the query to my friend John McKay, author of Anatomy of the Ship on Victory. Here is his reply: >> To answer this chaps question - yes, so far that it is known there were entry ports both port and starboard on Victory at Trafalgar and it is considered odd because two important guns were given up only for the prestige of the officers as they were the only ones to use them. Incidentally, I have built the Heller kit and apart from these ports (I had forgotten this point) found that it is quite good. Wish him good luck for me. << Dave Shirlaw Editor, Seawaves Magazine www.seawaves.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Sub info There is an excellent book on landing craft: "Allied Landing Craft in World War II" that contains photos as well as blue prints of each craft. Does anyone know if there is a similar book on WW II submarines? Thanks for your help. Regards, John - Seattle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Graham Boak" Subject: Hypothetical IPMS/HMS Zealous 1. IPMS UK has a category "What If" into which the USS Montana would seem to fit. It has been known to include such things as an RAF Curtiss Ascender, in-service TSR-2s, and Imperial Roman Air Force F-16s from the Aztec Wars...... It is completely separate from the Science Fiction/Fantasy classes. 2. The best kit to start with to make a Zealous would be the Matchbox Kelly, but a Tamiya/Skywave O/P would do, or even one of the many Cossacks. There would still be a fair amount of work with the turrets, secondary guns etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Teliczan Tom Civ 15 SVS/SVF Subject: Re: Rigging Material Wow! Yet more info on Tippet Line. Thank you Geoff Hanson for the latest, esp. the tables, & all others who contributed - I'm still amazed at all of the responses - Overwhelming!!! v/r Tomt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Airfix Queen Elizabeth windows Hi SMMLies, I just finished one of them a few months ago. I used decal sheet called trim film. This can be purchased through any good hobby shop for approx. $3 per sheet. I used black for the windows and dark gray for the air intakes around the stack bases. All the prom. deck windows I painted in with black. That was no easy job and it will get on your nerves real quick! Have fun, Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Kris Chaconas" Subject: HMS Victory To Joel L. The Victory was painted by a contemporary artist of the time, his painting, a preliminary watercolor for later work, shows the Victory, dismasted and being towed into Cadiz. This and several other works done at the time show no entry. Other material available at Greenwich and Portsmouth, show the entry ports were added after Trafalgar. Jim Chaconas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: David Sepos Subject: Painting 1:1250 Ships Hi Derek, Believe it or not, that's not a primer, it's the final finish that Neptun puts on all their models. Dark Ghost Gray is probably a pretty close match. I have been buying these ships for near 30 years now and all I can say is the factory painting is getting WORSE all the time, lots of orange peel, though I've never got one that was actualling losing paint to peeling or cracking. Turn it over, you'll probably see many unpainted areas on the underside of decks, bulkheads, etc. The 20 mm tub is probably not full of paint, it's probably a mold defect and that is metal filling the tub. I just strip them with a good household paint stripper and start fresh. This allows you to clean up some flash too. Prime and paint with your favorite brand. As far as doing a camo job without masking or an airbrush....... well...... all I can say is........ may the Force be with you! Regards, Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: BECJPARKER@aol.com Subject: Re: few questions about New York City's Maritime/Military Heritage The Fort on Staten Island at the base of the Verrazano bridge is Fort Wadsworth. The Fort in Brooklyn at the base of the Bridge is Fort Hamilton. There is a small Museum There with a library where you can get information about the Forts that were built to defend NY City. There is also two other interesting Forts, Fort Skyler on the Bronx side of the Trogs Neck Bridge that is where the SUNNY Maritime Academy is that has a very nice Maritime museum with some really neat models and Fort Totten on the Queens side that has a small museum also. All the forts have interesting histories and are worth visiting. Another great little museum is at the US Merchant Marine Academy on Little Neck Sound Just across the sound from Fort Totten on Long Island. It has one of the best collection of models of merchant marine ship anywhere quite a few are old Gibbs and Coxs models. Sorry I have no other info on your other question. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: BECJPARKER@aol.com Subject: Re: French museum Two very good museums in Paris the Marine museum at the Palace de Chaillot on the Tracadero gerat model, books and plans and the Military Museum at the Hotel des Invalides everything about the French Military. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Cleaning up primer Derek wrote: >> Another problem I'm looking at is needing to thin out the primer finish near the stern. It was applied too thickly, so it's cracking badly and has almost completely filled the port stern 20mm tub. What's the best way of cleaning this up without destroying the detail or having to completely reprime the model. << You might want to go to an electronics shop, and get some of the fiberglass bristle cleaning pens used to clean contacts. They come in at least two sizes, and are great for getting into little nooks and crannys for clean-up. Micromark sells them as well. They leave a pretty nice finish if used with a light touch, equivalent to about 400 grit. Be sure to vacuum or wash the part after, as the little bristles shed and can be a nuisance to clean up. Kurt SeaPhoto Maritime Photography www.warshipphotos.com Now taking credit cards via Paypal! Warship Models Underway www.warshipmodelsunderway.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Craig R Bennett Subject: HH-3F Pelican Heliocopter Hi Guys I'm working on a 1/72 scale HH-3F Pelican Heliocopter and I have Microscale Decal sheet for US Coast Guard Aircraft. I would like to make it for the Cape May CG Air Station. When I looked at their website (Coast Guard) they still list Atlantic City but not Cape May. When did they close Cape May? The decal sheet lists 24 air stations, today, they don't even have half that. It was obliviously part of the base closings in the 90's. If I can find this out then I know what year not to make the model represent. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Gold Medal Models new 1/350 USS Arizona set I have just received a set of the latest photo etch from Gold Medal Models for the new Banner Models 1/350 kit of the USS Arizona and it is fantastic! It has the useual relief etching that you find with all the latest Gold Medal Model products and is very similar to their earlier set for the Revell 1/429 scale USS Arizona kit. There are parts in the set to do a late 1930's version, as well as a 1941 outfit. Also contained in the set are parts that will enable one to convert the kit to a 1942 USS Pennsylvania, the sistership. I plan to do a in-depth in-box review for Model Ship Journal when I get the kit and any other accessories available at that time. Steve Wiper www.classicwarships.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "craig andrews" Subject: IJN Landing ship No. 103 class Hello all, Would any SMMLers have a reasonable plan and profile drawing of these japanese landing ships that they could scan for me, or know of a publication where i might be able to get one?. thanks in advance Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Drees Joe Subject: decals for wooden decks? Just a dumb question, but why hasn`t someone come out with decals for wooden decks? If it works for WW1 German lozenge camo why not a 1/700 BB teak deck? Your comments welcome.... joe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: joe.sus@att.net Subject: Hypotheticals In the IPMS, treatment of hypotheticals has varied, and I suspect that they were trying to keep to a strict interpretation of the rules in the ship, aircraft, and space categories due to past last minute controversies and changes. One year, an excellent "Luftwaffe '46" model was so good that they couldn't help themselves from keeping it in it's regular aircraft category, which it won. The tank people don't seem to segregate their Wermacht '46 stuff yet, and a large fraction of the car categories are of machines that never existed. I wonder, though, shouldn't "Scratchbuilt, any type or scale" or "Diorama" include hypotheticals, even under current rules? The work and research involved in doing that USS United States put it more in common with other scratchbuilt ships than with a kit built hypothetical. Myself, I have a weakness for this stuff. The Seahawk destroyer, the CSGN conversion that didn't happen to the Long Beach, Type XXVI U-Boats, Jupiter missile launching SSBN's: love 'em all. Joe Suszynski -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: CV-6 Assistance Dear Bill, I have given some more thought about what to do about the Tamiya "Big E," and, it is salvageable and still will make a really nice kit after I build it with the corrections that I know that it needs. After studying the Yorktown for details common to both CVs, I can use the Yorktown's bridge and island assembly to make the "E" during the mid-44 period with not too much trouble. The mysterious radio or radar hut forward of the most forward quad 40mm guntub must have been related to the night-interdiction activities that the "E" was involved with at the time. The location of the SG-2 radar is pretty apparent, so the only thing needed is to get a lot of photo-etched sheets to detail it out. If anyone is interested, I make new gunshields and tubs from section of plastic drinking straws. These keep their shape after being cut and are a little more durable than using paper. I will put photographs up on my site after the "E" is finished. Thanks. Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Eduardo Luis Marcovecchio" Subject: Rigging Material Hello people, I don't know if there are other brazilians in the list, but here goes: I found a brazilian store that sells tippet line. They had 0.04mm and 0.06mm line in stock this week. They have a good online shop at http://www.pesca.com.br/shop, but the tippet is not in the site, I had to call them to find out that they actually had tippet lines! The phone number can be easily found in the site, if you want to buy from them. I hope I helped someone with this. Thanks. Eduardo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Ed Grune Subject: Luftwaffe '46,and other hypotheticals Mike asked about the IPMS contest classification of Luftwaffe '46 and other proposed aircraft. Luftwaffe 46 is classified as Hypothetical. Even though the designs may have existed on paper - they were never started, much less finished. Similarly, the Testors F-19 Stealth Fighter and Mig-37 Ferret Russian Stealth fighter are also classified as hypothetical. These aircraft never were, except in the mind of the mold designers at Testors. This is why the JAG Stealth Carrier and perhaps the Arsenal Ship/Strike cruiser scratchbuilt from a picture in Popular Mechanics should probably be entered in Hypothetical too. A real aircraft, with totally imaginary markings also qualifies as Hypothetical according to the judges at IPMS. Do you remember the F7 Cutlass in last year's FSM "History You Can't Model" feature (the April Fools edition) - it would be classified as hypothetical. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: George Colleen Ian Hargreaves Subject: Re: Rigging Material Geoff Hanson mentioned - >> It is sometimes worth relating these diameters to the scale you are working in. << An interesting idea; so with a spreadsheet I get this expanded table. Why a diameter of 30.72 mm? This is one foot or 700 feet in 1/700 scale and so checks the math. Diameter 1/1 is full size. I have then calculated for 1/350 and 1/700 in mm, in and ft what the 1/1 would represent in scale units. Diameter Scale Equivalent 1/1mm 1/350mm 1/700mm 1/350in 1/700in 1/350ft 1/700ft 0.01 3.5 7 1.4 2.7 0.11 0.23 0.02 7 14 2.7 5.5 0.23 0.46 0.04 14 28 5.5 11 0.46 0.91 0.06 21 42 8.2 16 0.68 1.37 0.07 24.5 49 10 19 0.80 1.60 0.08 28 56 11 22 0.91 1.82 0.09 31.5 63 12 25 1.03 2.05 0.10 35 70 14 27 1.14 2.28 0.12 42 84 16 33 1.37 2.73 0.14 49 98 19 38 1.60 3.19 0.16 56 112 22 44 1.82 3.65 0.18 63 126 25 49 2.05 4.10 0.2 70 140 27 55 2.28 4.56 0.22 77 154 30 60 2.51 5.01 0.25 87.5 175 34 68 2.85 5.70 1 350 700 137 273 11 23 30.72 10752 21504 4200 8400 350 700 Interesting to see how small a diameter of tippit you need to get for representative 1/700 scale rigging. Cheers, George -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: " Jim Mc" Subject: Re: NYC Mike, That is the former(?) fort Wadsworth, also known as Navsta Staten Island for a short time. Sorry about the tugs and piers, I haven't been that way in a long, long time. Jim McCormick Who joined the Navy, and got sent to Bayonne, NJ (like Bill Murray) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Dengar" Subject: Pomorsky Souvenir Hi Guys, This site has some interesting Russian Sub models. http://www.nordlink.ru/~dak/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "R N Pearson" Subject: Trade: ICM Grosser Kurfurst for Revell Flower Hi All, As some of you are aware I am in the process of building the Revell 1/72 Flower Class Corvette. I have now reached the stage where I realise that in order to build the ship I want, I will have to do a massive conversion to the earlier short focsle. However I have also built a lot of extras for a later long focsle variant, and these items can't be used on the ship I wish to do. .... obviously, the only option is to get another one and do both. Consequently I would like to make an offer of the ICM 1/350 Grosser Kurfurst for the Revell-Germany 1/72 Flower Class Corvette. To sweeten the deal, I'll either pay postage on both kits as long as it is in North America, OR I'll throw in one of my WW1 aircraft Markings CDs ($40 value) and you cover postage on the Flower to me (should be $20 airmail - that was what the last one was). Regards, Bob Pearson Preview my WW1 markings CD http://members.nbci.com/Sopwith_5F1/CD-SAMPLE/index.html View my Flower Class corvettes at http://members.nbci.com/profileart/non-av/index.html Managing Editor / Internet Modeler http://www.internetmodeler.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume