Subject: SMML VOL 1328 Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 02:37:46 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Kidd Class DDG 2: Re: German battleship Super Size it! 3: Re: German Battleships 4: Re: German Battleship Super Size 5: Re: Prinz Eugen could be saved 6: Re: float your boat 7: Re: Pennsylvania 8: Hull Plating Survey 9: not agent 1908... 10: website links 11: Re: Hull Plating Survey 12: Prinz Eugen could be saved 13: Re: German battleship Super Size it! 14: Re: Solder it 15: Re: german battleship super size it 16: German Super BB's, Floating Drydocks, and identity of LST 17: Re: Hull Plating Survey 18: Re: not agent 1908... 19: Re: German battleship Super Size it! 20: Re: German LARGE battle ships 21: Re: Product Review: Solder It 22: NavTech MisEu publications 23: Re: Over grown WWII German Battleships 24: Re: Adolph's White Elephants!! 25: Re: German battleship Super Size it! 26: Re: U.S.S. Kidd 993 27: Re: Skywave/Pitroad DP-1 Decals 28: Flying Cloud and Submarines -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Dave Shirlaw Subject: Kidd Class DDG The Kidd Class have been offered to Taiwan. They were previously offered to Australia and Greece after decommissioning (Canada before they were completed as the USN never really wanted them). Also the Taiwanese Navy doesn't want them as they are of little use against China's SOVREMENNYYs. Taiwan has not accepted the offer to date as many there feel slighted about not getting the AEGIS system. Dave Shirlaw Editor, Seawaves Magazine www.seawaves.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: isublett@home.com Subject: Re: German battleship Super Size it! To Rusty White: Re:the KM super- battleship designs: they're in Breyer, pp 313-318 in the edition I have, the English translation of 1973. Pirie Sublett - sorry, folks, sometimes I just forget to sign my posts. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: GGeGratz@aol.com Subject: Re: German Battleships You can found it in the classic Breyers BBs & Bcs 1905-1970. George Gratz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: IBea351423@aol.com Subject: Re: German Battleship Super Size Rusty - Yes Adolf Hitler wanted some larger battleships. The H 44 was going to be 128930 tons and was to be armed with 8 x20" guns!! Length was to be 1133 ft. at the waterline, secondary armament was to be 12 x5.9",16x 4.1" and 6 aircraft. Decks were 13" thick and the side armour was to be 15". Details can be found in Garzke and Dulin. I have a metal 1/1250 model of this ship and she dwarfs Yamato. Mind you she also dwarfs Nimitz! Ian Beattie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen could be saved Last I read on this was from a diver who stated that the ALUMINUM interior decks and some of the bulkheads were corroding to the point that they were collapsing in on themselves. I really dont think that it would be possible to even right the ship, let alone raise and restore it. The Prinz Eugen is in very shallow water, so there is a very high rate of corrosion and marine growth on it. I have also obtained a few photos which show the protruding capsized stern above the water, with the hull plates rusted all the way through. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: EBENCARL89@aol.com Subject: Re: float your boat thanks,! for given me the site to get the queen elizabeth window decals. i ordered them today for the airfix kit. but does any other one have any ideals on how to float it??? and on what ballest to use to keep her up right??? thanks again, ed wilde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: Pennsylvania >> Oh, c'mon, Bob. In scrutinizing all of the photos you've sent me of your magnificent models (especially the Revolutionary War gunboat PHILADELPHIA) I don't believe this for a minute. I'm firmly convinced you can make *anything* out of *nothing*, with no reference materials at all, and to museum standards. << Thanks for the plug Bob (master modeler) Steinbrunn, but it's true. WW II ships are a bit modern for most of my model work so I do need references and both the cover painting and the portrait used for the end papers of that book were invaluable, They show many of the differences between Arizona and Pennsylvania that I have seen nowhere else, especially for the 1935 period. Then, when you add the Gold Medal Models etched brass set, the results are not bad. Hard to believe it started out as a 1950's Revell kit. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Kelvin Mok" Subject: Hull Plating Survey >> My current project is the BWN 1/350th scale USS Juneau. I am going to simulate hull plating on this kit, and have thought of a few ways to attempt this. << I took a look at my as yet unbuilt 1/350 Missouri hull to see what one could possibly do. The first impression is that at that scale no hull plates were moulded in as they would have been too small to be meaningful. To simulate the plating in paint would have resulted in a quiltwork of dirty patches which you will never see when looking at the real ship. I take it you are probably referring to the hull armour belts which is a different species altogether. From a distance where the model would have been the size of the real ship (anyone has a rule of thumb estimate what this distance would be?) there will be a play of reflections and shadow that will convey a depth of perception as to the hull's structure. I presume you will use hobby acrylic paints. So I took a look at the artists' colour illustrations in my reference books on how they treated this subject. Easy enough. For starters soon after the factory fresh coat of paint is applied it begins to fade and to simulate this you drybrush the edges with white. I do armour mostly and this works for me, to drybrush the corners and edges. For good measure I also add a few drybrushed swirls where there is a lot of contact wear. I use artist's tube acrylics. Since the armour belts are rectangular all you need is a right angle card for a mask to delineate your edges while you drybrush. If you think you have overdone the whitening leave it for a few days and the white will seem to age gracefully into the base paint colour. If still unsatisfied just thin the original colour paint with acrylic extender (or retarder as it is sometimes labelled) and use that to tone down the white. Don't mix white with colour. Red + White gives a sickly pink for example. Extender thinned red over white gives an entirely different effect. I rarely use black to simulate shadowed surfaces. But use extender thinned black for the same reasons if you need to do so. If you are going for visual effects through paint you have also committed to simulating the effects of weathering and corrosion too. Using drybrushing, acrylic extender and earth colours like yellow ochre, burnt sienna. That book artist's illustration and box art are excellent painting guides. When you are done painting and applying the decals brush over the whole work with clear acrylic extender. This has the effect of making a smooth satin-like coat that will bring all the paint work to the same degree of reflectance and make the model look like it had the paint printed on. Good luck. Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: not agent 1908... >> For those of us that haven't been around that long, is there a story behind the lumber cartel denial? Just curious. << There is indeed a story. Please read of the tale at the following location: http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel John Sheridan www.shipcamouflage.com I am not Unit# 631 of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) If there were a Lumber Cartel, the last place on earth I would look for it would be: http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Robert Fish" Subject: website links Shane, And scale ship Builders, Shane knows who most of us are by are e-mail #-IDs from your mail server's so,its model ships we should be talking about not someone's real name, {just my input} Now back to ships, I Welcome all scale ship modelers, to stop by the newly opened earthlink website at,{no guestbook yet} http://home.earthlink.net/~langley02/ I say earthlink cuss they are the host of the site, its point, & click, so anybody can do this, with little or no knowledge about webpage building, and its just getting started, so there are only two and 1\2 pages, so is the scale model Langley, underconstuction,as I get photos of my model I'll post them on the pages,and so-on,until both are finished, in the end I must say, I've received some great advice from, modelers who in the past have helped me a great deal so in closing this message board has been of immense help to me, and I thank you all for it. Robert of Southern California. "Retreat hell were just attacking in another Direction" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Re: Hull Plating Survey Regards to hull plating. Hi SMMLies, I plated my Classic Warship USS Alaska CB 1 using the tape and paint method. I drew the plate lines on the hull and taped the (in) plates. I used automotive scratch and filer primer from a spray can. This comes out rather thick and you don't need much to do the job. (Remember not to over do the plates with too much paint). If you are modeling in 1:350 scale and can see them more then four feet away they are most likely to heavy. Then I painted the hull it's correct colors. It really is an easy job to do and once you've done it you will be hooked. The next model you build without plates will look bare. good luck, Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Paul and Renee Jacobs" <1250man@home.com> Subject: Prinz Eugen could be saved This proposal would be laughable if the guy wasn't so serious. This is a good example of a ship fanatic whose come up with a rationalization for trying to save a worthless wreck that he's obsessed over. If he's really interested in promoting peace, then he should raise the money for some other endeavor, rather than spending many millions on restoring the PRINZ. I'd bet money that it will never happen. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: LBart73@aol.com Subject: Re: German battleship Super Size it! In referance to Rusty's question about the German super-battleships. According to Garzke and Dulins' "Axis and Nuetral battleships in WWII", the Germans did indeed plan very large battleships; the "H" class. These were to be built in five phases. The H39 was to be armed with 8 16" guns and would have displaced 65,952 tons at full load. Construction on this ship was actually begun but was suspended in August, 1939 with the outbreak of the war. (see photo on page 328 of above referenced book) The H40 was longer, wider and heavier but carried the same armament. H41 appears to have been wider, deeper, heavier and slower than H40, but main armament was 8 16.5" guns. The last three of the series were the monsters: H42 - Full load disc. 96,541 tons, length(w) 1,000', beam 140.4', 8x16.54" guns H43 - Full load disc. 118,104 tons, length(w) 1,082', beam 157.5', 8x20.06" guns H44 - full load disc. 139,264 tons, length (w) 1,133' beam 169' , 8x20.06" guns The book has preliminary design drawings of H42,43 &44.It has a detailed outboard profile and topside plan in about 1/500 scale of H39. It also has a body plan for H39 in what may be 1/350 scale. Hope this helps. Rusty, I will be in Norman around August 8, contact me off list if you would like to see the book. Larry Bartlett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Solder it >> Sometimes there comes along a product that just screams out for the modeler to try, and this one caught my eye immediately. This product was found at Home Depot in the paint department, as if you needed to solder anything in and around a painted area. But, I saw the instant use of this cold or low heat soldering system anyway. With the need to either super-glue or low heat solder so many metal and photo-etched pieces in modeling today, this system uses the flame of a lighter or a match to activate the solder. What makes this product so useful is the ability for it to stick to so many ferrous and non-ferrous metals, leaving the final attachment to the model with super-glue or five-minute epoxies. According to the manufacturer, SOLDER-IT, Inc., this stuff instantly bonds copper, brass, bronze, nickel, platinum, chrome, model, stainless, galvanized, gold, silver, coated steel, cast iron, black steel, and steel. This product is stated to not work with aluminum, magnesium, or pot or "Monkey Metal" for you Brits out there. According to the manufacturer's claims, the tensile strength of a properly done joint is between 10,000 to 25,000 PSI., flows freely and smoothly at 450 degrees F., solders almost all metals, and is a very good conductor of electrical conductivity, and, is stress and vibration resistant. In order to use this product successfully, a person needs to be able to read and follow the adequate instructions on the back of the English only instructions. These read as follows: 1. Remove cap from nozzle. 2. Press plunger forward (into syringe) and paste will flow. Bead, strip or spot SOLDER-IT paste in an adequate amount to obtain a satisfactory joint. 3. Pull back slightly on plunger to stop the flow of paste. 4. Replace cap on nozzle. << Interesting, sounds like a solder bearing flux. Badger uses a similar product to solder the airbrush body parts together. They "paint" the mating surfaces where the air valve sleeve and one other part seat into openings in the main body, assemble the parts then batch solder in ovens. I was thinking the very same thing that Harold was mentioning, using it to solder PE parts by "painting" the mating surfaces then heating with an iron or by resistance soldering. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: royrichey@att.net Subject: Re: german battleship super size it Rusty, The largest German design I have read about is the 'H-44'proposal. It was an enlargement of the H-43. H-43 was to be 330 meters long with a displacement of 111,000 tons and mounting eight-50.8cm in twin turrets. Battleships and Battlecruisers 1905-1970 by Siegfried Breyer has a general arrangement. Roy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Roland Mar Subject: German Super BB's, Floating Drydocks, and identity of LST 1) There was a question about a super-sized German BB. From what I know, this remained in the pipe dream stage with nothing serious put on paper beyond conjectural drawings. This was the "H-41" to H-44" type. The H-43 was to have 50.6 cm [20"] main guns, a displacement of about 111,000 tons, and a length of 330 meters. This was a "please the Fuehrer" study, as the largest size main gun that the OKM would accept was 40.6 cm [16"] that could possibility of being bored out to 17". The problem was the increase in displacement caused by the machinery would make them rather hard to operate in the shallow Baltic ports. The largest class projected that I know of that actually had some components (including armament) constructed was the "H" class (no year #); consisting of Schiffen H, J, K, L, M, and N. There are some decent arrangement drawings in Breyer's BATTLESHIPS AND BATTLECRUISERS 1905-1970 of all of these. 2) Some time ago someone was looking for plans for AFDB-1. You might try, somewhat appropriately, FLOATING DRYDOCK. They have a plan in their "G" series for an Advanced Base Sectional Drydock that I think is the same thing. Hope these help. 3) Now I have a question. I recently returned from a trip to Pensacola NAS. While en-route, we stopped a few days in New Orleans. We took a Mississippi river cruise to the Chalmette battlefield, and when we passed the Litton Industries' Algiers Point Facility I saw and took pictures of an old LST. She was battered, abused, rusted out, had large cargo hatches cut into her port side, her upperworks cut off and replaced with modular buildings, and had had a pier built all around her. But there was no mistaking that shape, especially with the bow ramp doors open. I'm guessing she was early WW II production. Does anyone know which LST she is/was so I can look her history up? Thanks for any help, Roland Mar "No secret identity, no hidden agendas, nothing up my sleeve." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SAMI ARIM Subject: Re: Hull Plating Survey Devin, This is how I would try hullplating on a camouflaged hull. First I would choose the lightest color of the camo scheme. After taping the ship with alternate plating, I would spray couple coats of this lightest color. Next I would take the tapes off and spray the entire model with the same color. Now I have the plating. Now I can mask the patterns of the different colors, starting from light to dark. After painting is finished and completely dry, I spray a coat of "future" to define the lines. After future completely dries, I give a coat of blackwash with turpentine. This wash and other teckniques will make the plating lines recognizable and to scale. Does this make any sense? Sami Arim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: not agent 1908... >> For those of us that haven't been around that long, is there a story behind the lumber cartel denial? Just curious. << There are no men in black, there are no black helicopters, and there is no lumber cartel, which is reputed to be a whacky, spam hating site on the internet. You can check it out at: http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Bruce Burden Subject: Re: German battleship Super Size it! >> battleship with 20" guns and almost twice the size as the Yamato! I would LOVE to see some conceptual drawings of that monster! << I am pretty sure Dulin & Garzke have this and other German/DKM "H" class conjectural battleships in their "Axis Battleships of World War II/Two". As I recall, it was wildly impractical because: 1) It wouldn't fit in any German (controlled) harbor, 2) It wouldn't fit in the Kiel Canal 3) It had too much draft for the bay around Denmark and German (Heigoland Bight or something sorta close) Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Michael Bartel Subject: Re: German LARGE battle ships >> I was watching the History Channel last night on the Battleships when they made an astonishing statement. They said that Hitler was considering a battleship with 20" guns and almost twice the size as the Yamato! I would LOVE to see some conceptual drawings of that monster! That I would love to scratch build. Anyone know of any sources that could have any drawings if they exist? Of course this could have been in the very early conceptual stages, so drawings may be impossible to find. TALK ABOUT HYPOTHETICAL ENTRY!!! << Rusty, Erich Groner's German Warships 1815-1845 has a common drawing that is even scaled down so that it will fit in the book! The design mentioned in that TV special is the H-44 design, and it's essentially an enlarged H-39 with a long forecastle. At 120,000 tons, the description of 'floating fortress' is more appropriate than that of battle ship. A ship of that size, though, could never have used contemporary German docking facilities. The ship itself certainly could have been built, as we have seen larger warships (and merchant ships) built in the years following WW2. The large guns weren't so farfetched, because other countries were working on super heavy naval guns (larger than 18") before WW2. Fortunately, such madness was overtaken by events, and even Hitler's superships would probably have eventually fallen victim to his future edicts and naval incompetence. In reality, the H42, H43 and H44 designs were just design studies to show the feasibility of such ships, but they never would have been built. They definitely would have had antitorpedo protection superior to anything. I was considering scratchbuilding one just on a lark a few years ago. In 1:700 scale, it would be possible to use parts from the 1:570 scale Revell Bismarck on a scratchbuilt hull. Or, just use the 1:570 model with some modifications to the aft deckhouse to give it a hangar. Mike Bartel IHP 'You know, just once I'd like to meet an alien menace that wasn't immune to bullets!' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Bruce Burden Subject: Re: Product Review: Solder It >> With the need to either super-glue or low heat solder so many metal and photo-etched pieces in modeling today, this system uses the flame of a lighter or a match to activate the solder. << I have some of this product, but have yet to use it. What I find is critical isn't necessarily the solder, but the tool used to heat the joint. The problem with solder is two fold: 1) You have to hold it steady for the molten solder to "chill", or you have a cold (weak) joint. 2) You often need to apply the heat at specific areas, or risk damage to other areas. I find that a resistance soldering unit solves both problems above. Using the tweasers, I can hold the parts until the solder cools, and the "tweasers" are part of the unit that apply the current, hence the heat. The tweasers also allow the current to be supplied in a very specific location, unlike torches/lighters/etc. You could use a soldering iron, but I have a problem with needing three hands to use these, because I can't hold the parts motionless while the solder chills, and you can't exactly turn off the iron and have it cool nearly immediately. (To solder the GMM 1/700 SK-2 radar for late WWII IOWA class BB's, I think I will use a torch to heat the solder!) Anyway, check out this site for various solders and fluxes: http://www.pkaymetal.com Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Doug Wilde" Subject: NavTech MisEu publications I'm cross-posting this to SteelNavy.com I came across reference to two interesting publications: NavTech MisEu No. 338-45 and NavTech NisEu No. 312-45 in a 1946 paper in SNAME Transactions. Anyone know what branch of the Navy produced these in 1945. Doug Wilde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: Over grown WWII German Battleships >> They said that Hitler was considering a battleship with 20" guns and almost twice the size as the Yamato! I would LOVE to see some conceptual drawings of that monster! That I would love to scratch build. Anyone know of any sources that could have any drawings if they exist? Of course this could have been in the very early conceptual stages, so drawings may be impossible to find. << Hi Rusty; The German navy had a number of post BISMARCK designs planned. Look for the German Z plan. They didn't plan on fighting the UK till '44, at least, Mister Adolf got them going 5 years early, one of his bigger blunders. The Z plan had everything- carriers, battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and subs. The next class after BISMARCK was to be 6 "H" class ships. These were to be somewhat enlarged and carry 8x16" guns, or perhaps 12x15". Then there were the H-42 (96,000t. fl/8x16"), H-43 (118,000 t. fl./8x20"), and H-44 (139,000t. fl./ 8x20") designs of ever larger ships. The monster you are referring to above would be the H-44. I scratch built a 1:1200 H44 about 25 years ago. This was a low detail wargame model. It made BISMARCK look like a nice heavy cruiser. A couple of the "H" class were laid down, but never completed. Eventually the partially completed hulls were scrapped for material to build subs. Here are some sources for more info and some nice drawings _Battleship and Battlecruiser_, by Sigfried Breyer. _German Warships 1815-1945_, by Erich Groner. _Axis and Neutral Battleships in WWII_, by W.Garzke and R. Dulin. All 3 books should be easily available, although pricey! I would suggest the Breyer book. It has nice, but not highly detailed, drawings. If for some reason you can't find these books let me know. I own all 3 and would send you copies of the relevant pages. For a model I would enlarge the drawings to your required scale and use detail drawings and photos of SCHARNHORST and BISMARCK to extrapolate the detail that isn't there. I'd love to see photos of the finished model. Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister http://www.egroups.com/group/WoodenWalls Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: Adolph's White Elephants!! Rusty; Please! Tell me you want to do that 139,000 ton H-44 in 1:100 scale!!!! Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister http://www.egroups.com/group/WoodenWalls Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: German battleship Super Size it! Rusty, See Siegfried Breyer's Battleships and Battle Cruisers 1905 - 1970, pgs 313-318 (Project Studies 'H-41' to 'H-44'). They would indeed have been monsters. H-44 would've been larger than a Nimitz cl supercarrier (141,500 full load, 345.1 meters (wl)). The basic design is based on the H class ships (two of which I believe were laid down before the war started). . Derek Wakefield -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "William Oreto" Subject: Re: U.S.S. Kidd 993 Hi-mold did put out a kit of the Kidd in 1/700. Basically the kit was a Skywave/Pitroad Spurance Class kit with some additional resin and metal pieces. Some cutting of the upper hull was required. Its no longer manufactured. Try posting to the Steel Navy Board someone maybe be willing to part with the kit. Bill Oreto -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "William Oreto" Subject: Re: Skywave/Pitroad DP-1 Decals Can anyone provide any information on Skywave/Pitroad's latest edition of the USN -DP-1 set of decals? Bill Oreto -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "aa8." Subject: Flying Cloud and Submarines Ladies and Gentlemen I have the following three requests 1) I recently bought at a charity sail a wooden model of the clipper 'Flying Cloud' for four quid. The kit was made by Scientific Models Inc. of Berkeley Heights, New Jersey. The kit appears to be complete apart from the instructions which are missing. Does anyone out there know anything about these kits, how old they are and are they still available? Also can anyone get me a set of instructions for the kit? A photocopy would do. 2) I have been reading 'War Beneath The Sea' by Peter Padfield. Does anyone make a kit of a British 'U' or 'T' Class Submarine in any scale? Upholder would be a good choice. Also does anyone know what shade of blue British submarines in the Mediterranean were painted? 3) As far as I'm concerned the individual known as Rhino Bones is using his real name. When Rhino visited the UK recently he was greeted at Heathrow with a placard with Rhino Bones written on it. Rhino is currently undergoing training to allow him to adopt his title of honorary Brit. This training is of a secret nature but does involve Beer Drinking. Come back soon Rhino. Kind Regards Andy Jones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume