Subject: SMML VOL 1330 Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 01:43:09 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: definition of semi-scratch builder 2: PE set for CVL? 3: 1/144th Ticonderoga 4: FLETCHER 5"/38 cal. offset gun mounts 5: Re: Hull Plating 6: Bob Steinbrunn's KIDD 7: Kresta Class Cruisers 8: Re: German LARGE battle ships 9: Lattice masts in etched brass 10: Fate of Varyag 11: HMS Hood found after 60 years 12: Re: German LARGE battle ships 13: They have found the HOOD 14: Re: Submarines 15: Real Ships, Hypothetical Ships 16: Airbrushing tips 17: PRINZ EUGEN AGAIN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: FESTIVAL OF THE SEA and SMML Barbeque 2: FOTS 3: Re: 2002 Nats 4: 2002 IPMS Nats in VaBeach -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Submarines -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: definition of semi-scratch builder Whereas no one has raised any objection to my query about my self-defined status of semi-scratch builder, may I assume tacit approval thereof by SMML? Franklyn Brown Boston, Mass. (USA) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: PE set for CVL? Is there a PE set for the Skywave/Revell USS Independence class CVLs? I looked at the usual suspects' lists and did not see one, but maybe I missed it? Thanks! Joseph Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Mike Kear" Subject: 1/144th Ticonderoga A visitor to my site www.modelwarship.com has asked me if I can point him towards a place he can get a 1/144 scale Ticonderoga model. He says "Can you refer me to any model builders? " so I'm not sure if he wants a kit or wants someone to make one for him. Anyone interested or know the best place for him to go? (He's in California if that makes any difference to you) Please let me know and I'll give you the visitor's address and you can communicate directly with him. Cheers, Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia www.modelwarship.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: FLETCHER 5"/38 cal. offset gun mounts >> Is it just my being a nit picker or does the Mark 30 base ring mounts for the 5" single turrets have enough offset (6" to the left) to be shown in 1/350 scale? My old kit of the 1/700 Fletcher by Matchbox, while being more heavy handed than a lumberjack, does have the turrets with the unique non-consentric shape and includes the extra bevel on the roofs of the 51 & 55 mounts also. I'm surprised that Tamiya missed this in their otherwise beautiful 1/350 (AND 1/700) Fletcher kit. I hope other manufacturers have picked up on this. This may be an old thread that I missed since I'm kind of new to the SMML, but I would like some comment on same. Does the resin DD kits that use these turrets (They go back to the Sims class) have this feature? << The BlueJacket Ship Crafters 1/192 scale kit of the USS KIDD (DD 661) is a multi-media kit with basswood, britannia pewter, brass, and some styrene. BJ picked up on both the knuckled roofs on gun mounts 51 and 55 (the most forward and most aft, respectively), while the other three have straight lined roofs, and the fact that the gun is mounted offset in the gun house to the left or port side. The gun houses are somewhat roughly cast in pewter and need some help, but the basic shape is there. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Member, Nautical Research Guild Tin Can Sailors IPMS/USA #3345 (all of this should provide enough identity, shouldn't it? --he says, grinning) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Jim Johnson" Subject: Re: Hull Plating Don't go overboard with trying to replicate plating on ships. The first iron ships were riveted. There were two ways to do this. The first way is to lay one plate over the next one by maybe 6" up to a foot. Holes are drilled through both plates and a rivet is inserted and peened over to hold the plates together. They were either overlapped on the same edges like shiplap siding or they were alternated. One row was overlapped on both edges and the next row overlapped the rows on both the top and bottom. The second way to rivet ships together is to butt the two edges together, then install a narrow plate over both edges and rivet both plates onto the common plate. Very often both methods were used on the same ship. While the horizontal seams were overlapped, the vertical seams were connected with doubler bars. Both of these methods are observable on ships. The seams that are overlapped have the thickness of the plate edges showing. This might be anywhere from 1/4" up to and over 1". This is what people are trying to simulate when they are talking about showing hull plates on their models. The only problem is that you can usually see the rivets heads. The plate was drilled for the rivet with a taper facing the exterior of the ship (usually, not always). The red hot rivet was installed from the inside of the ship and then peened over from the outside. It was somewhat flush, however there was a small crown to the finished rivet. As the rivet cools, it shrinks causing the plates to be pulled even tighter together. If the rivets were installed from the outside, the heads are a hemisphere. These are usually seen on ships from the 19th century. One of the great strides made during WW2 was the onset of electric welding. The method really took off in part because of the shipbuilding boom the war brought on. The plates to be welded were butted together with a small gap (1/8") between them and both edges of the plates were tapered, usually on the inside of the ship. The two were welded together and then the outside of the weld was "back chipped". A power chisel was run up the weld and a small groove was made. The welder then went on the outside and ran a bead of weld in this groove. This was anywhere from 1/2" to 1" wide. On a welded hull ship, this is all you could see to determine where the plate edges were. As usual, research and careful study are required. If a ship was welded, you would not be able to see plate lines, only weld lines. Jim Johnson - I worked in a ship yard as a welder to finance my mis-spent youth. PS - Many welded ships had rivet seams running most of the length of the ship down around the bilge keel. These were crack stoppers. A crack will go through a welded seam but not a riveted seam. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Bob Steinbrunn's KIDD Thanks to Loren Perry, David Lombard, and Vince McCullough for their kind words regarding my model of the destroyer USS KIDD. I very much appreciate it. I won't get a swelled head, however, since I am in awe of so many other modelers' talents. Bob Santos I've mentioned. Loren Perry has, perhaps, done more for this hobby than any other individual I can immediately think of. His Gold Medal Models photoetch business has raised the bar to the highest imaginable standard. His model of USS VOGELGESANG was an inspiration to me in detailing the decks, bulkheads, and deckhouses of my own model. Imagine crew members' bicycles stowed onboard and an apoplectic Chief Petty Officer berating a group of sailors who have spilled a can of paint on deck. (!) Vince McCulloch, as the Webmaster for the Nautical Research Guild (http://www.naut-res-guild.org), is one of those behind-the-scenes individuals who freely gives up much of his modeling time in order to maintain the site for the benefit of others. Thanks, Vince, I use the site all the time. Lastly, if any of you had been to the Mariners' Museum "Scale Ship Model Competition and Exhibition 2000" (http://www.mariner.org) and had studied the many unbelievable models on display there, you'd have some idea of actually how humble I feel. If you haven't been there and would like to see some of the other wonderful models, you can check out the Mariners' Web site, above, and follow the links to the competition, or you can order a copy of FineScale Modeler's "Great Scale Modeling 2001" at http://www.finescale.com. Gentlemen, I salute you all. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Member, Nautical Research Guild Tin Can Sailors IMPS/USA #3345 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Robert Patmore Subject: Kresta Class Cruisers I am scratch building a 1980s Soviet Kresta II class cruiser and I need information on the support for the radar platform that sits on the stack (engine exhaust). I have many pictures of this ship but due to everything being black under the platform and shaded I can only guess what is there. The plans I have do not show that kind of detail. I would appreciate any reply on this Bob Patmore -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: drwells@hogpb.mt.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: German LARGE battle ships Michael Bartel wrote: >> I was considering scratchbuilding one just on a lark a few years ago. In 1:700 scale, it would be possible to use parts from the 1:570 scale Revell Bismarck on a scratchbuilt hull. Or, just use the 1:570 model with some modifications to the aft deckhouse to give it a hangar. << I had a different take on the problem: Use a Lindberg 1/384 Bismarck hull and main guns, and Revell 1/570 detail parts to produce a 1/570 H-44. The numbers work out to be reasonably close, but unfortunately, Lindberg's hull is so far off (from either the Bismarck or an H-44) that "accuracy" is questionable. Of course, what is accuracy with a ship that never made it off the drawing board? The way I look at it, the Lindberg Bismarck can't be used for much else...... (target practice, maybe?) David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Graham Boak" Subject: Lattice masts in etched brass I am familiar with using straight edges to get crisp inside bends from a etched brass sheet, but the White Ensign O/P Class destroyer etched sheet has two lattice masts, of very small cross-section. I would appreciate any advice on how to get a good result. Graham Boak -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Fate of Varyag Here is an update on the bizarre story of this ship: "Turks Keep Ship Going Round in Circles: It's No Longer a Carrier, Not Yet a Casino" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31972-2001Jul21.html Mike Leonard Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject: HMS Hood found after 60 years Just got the news that the "Mighty" HMS Hood has been located and photographed some 60 years after being sunk by the Bismarck. They've got a picture of the ships bell. Another great naval archeological find! http://www.channel4.com/hood/news/updates/index.html Kevin W. Woodruff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: German LARGE battle ships >> I don't think that any of the above would have mattered as I have it on good authority that Hitler planned to have the ship lifted by airships and towed behind 122 of the latest version of the 64 engined Messerschmidt 623 Super Gigant. It was said to have a top speed of 322 mph. Thank goodness the war ended when it did. Phew!!!!! << Actually that was the original plan, but then he changed his mind and insisted that it also had to carry 750 lb bombs to retaliate for the Battle of Britain. The associated drag would have slowed it down to the point where a stripped mustang could have shot it down, >> John Twelveinch (I don't use it as a rule) << Brad Threehundredsixmillimeter (just a silly millimeter longer) Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "graham and melanie" Subject: They have found the HOOD They have found Hood. Site has got pics http://www.channel4.com/hood/news/updates/index.html best wishes graham -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Randall.O'Malley@clarica.com Subject: Re: Submarines >> I have been reading 'War Beneath The Sea' by Peter Padfield. Does anyone make a kit of a British 'U' or 'T' Class Submarine in any scale? Upholder would be a good choice. Also does anyone know what shade of blue British submarines in the Mediterranean were painted? << I don't know much about British Submarines but I have read an excellent book called: "One Of Our Submarines" by Cdr. Edward Young DSO DSC RNV(S)R. It is a great autobigraphy describing training, and operations in H.M. Submarine 'Storm', in the North Atlantic, the Med, and the Indian Ocean. If you can't find it I'll sell my copy for $10 Cdn including shipping in Canada or $10 USD shipped to the States. Randy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Hank Lapa" Subject: Real Ships, Hypothetical Ships All, I stand by my earlier post as the clearest and fairest breakdown. It seems almost obvious that the term "hypothetical" was settled upon before the discussion that led to the current rules was finished, and then left in place through intellectual ommission. And what we have now is a category with a title whose plain-language meaning (an important concept in law) is at odds with the attached "clarification." "Commissioned"??? Gee whiz, stop listing what "hypothetical" isn't and just choose a word that works. Like "fictional." Then use the dictionary if you don't really know what that means. (e.g., USS Montana was not fictional.) The problem is that there are plenty of subjects that fall between "real" and "hypothetical" as defined, er, I mean, (more likely) misdefined. "Conjectural" could easily fall under both real ships and fictional ships which are otherwise undocumented. But see how easy that is to handle? Just re-read the sentence. (There is nothing 'conjectural" about CVA-58, unless you're talking about her post-modernization configuration from when Reagan took her out of mothballs in the early 80s.) The only problem I see might be with Noah's Ark. Obviously there will be a necessity for some conjectural modeling there, but we each have our own opinions on the "reality" of it. So again, lose the work "hypothetical" along with all the real weakness in meaning it entails, and all the conflicting back-up material it seems to require while still leaving significant room for interpretation. I'd say there's only one "real ship" within the Disney realm, and that's a cruise ship that's been in service for the last few years. Boats, on the other hand . . . So, does anyone think there is NO problem leaving things as they are? Logic, the simpler the better, is the answer. (Thanks for the support, Rusty.) Sorry to belabor the point, Regards, Hank No, wait . . . "Nelson Farragut Jellicohalsey III" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: VONJERSEY@aol.com Subject: Airbrushing tips i have been a ship modeler for the past thirty years, yet i have never ventured into the realm of air brushing and acriclic paints. model expo' is running a jim dandy sale and i have been tempted to buy the aztek airbrush and compressor combo and spray booth but mortal fear has gripped me. i don't know anything about spray paint once you graduate from a can. how can i get a good solid overview? videos? books? ken auslander/ aka vonjersey -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Paul and Renee Jacobs" <1250man@home.com> Subject: PRINZ EUGEN AGAIN >> if he's really a ship fanatic, he'd realize there are a LOT of ships that are more or less still intact that need this kind of big money and attention and general doting. The money it would take for what he's wanting to do with Prinz Eugen would work minor miracles at a heap of museums that currently exist << Well said Jodie! For a fraction of what this guy wants to spend they could have saved the old CABOT from the scrap heap. But a lot of existing museum ships won't survive in the long run, because there's not enough money to keep them alive. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "WEM" Subject: FESTIVAL OF THE SEA and SMML Barbeque Hi Guys, We are aiming for a "get-together" barbeque for Friday evening, after the first day of the festival (and of course, a good excuse for another after-wedding get-together!). We need to know numbers of those who will be coming.. it's all terribly informal.. we have decided that John and I will supply complimentary food, beer and wine and some soft drinks to those attendees who let us know in advance (i.e. respond to this post.. how can you resist that one!). Spouses/girlfriends etc are welcome too ... if anyone's hesitant, then it might comfort you to note that some of my own family (including ladies) will be attending.. not everybody there will be a SMMLlie person.. but for those of you who are, you'll be awed by the hundreds of (mainly) 1/700 and 1/350 Scale models that JB has on display at his home. Instructions to get to Sarisbury Green will be posted on the WEM website soon for you to print and keep. Festival of the Sea info is at http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/fots.htm I've already had posts in to say that folks have found accommodation from the lists that I supplied so if you're desparate, do check it out! Caroline Carter White Ensign Models, Gardeners Cottage, Cowarne Court, Ledbury, Herefordshire, HR8 2UF, U.K. Tel : 0870 220 1888 Fax: 0870 220 1786 Home Page for WEM http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "John Rule" Subject: FOTS OK, so I've got my airline ticket. Now all I have to do is find accommodation. Has anyone been successful recently. In Gosport for instance. Preferably where I can use transit as I feel a car may be a bit redundant at this festival. What about a SMMLie meet. Has one been arranged? If so, where and what kind of ale and single malts do they stock? Hope to renew and make new acquaintances. And to faces to names. Sincerely, John Rule -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: 2002 Nats >> I thought I saw a note in a previous edition of SMML that the 2002 IPMS meet will be held in Virginia Beach. Is that confirmed? Is there a place I can get details? << Yes, that's correct. The link to the web site should be up soon, if it's not already on the IPMS/USA web site. Rusty White 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention Chairman OKC IN 2003! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: 2002 IPMS Nats in VaBeach Steve wrote (SMML1329) seeking confirmation of the dates & location of the 2002 IPMS National Convention It is being held July 31 through August 3, 2002 (@ height of the hurricane season). Its is being held at the Pavillion Convention Center (same as last time). Hotels are scattered throughout the city. Tours (for ship guys) include: Mariner's Museum Nauticus/Wisconsin/Harbor cruise Norfolk Naval Base (if you can pull the wingnuts out of Oceana) Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: wem Subject: Re: Submarines >> Also does anyone know what shade of blue British submarines in the Mediterranean were painted? << Royal Navy subs in the Med were painted in PB-10, a color included in the Snyder & Short Royal Navy Set 1 paint chips. Cheers, John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume