Subject: SMML VOL 1379 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:15:23 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Russian Battle Groups 2: Essex Class Carrier, Again-Real or Not? 3: Re: Canuck Colours (Colors?) 4: Re: 1:48 WW 1 machine guns 5: Pacific Mail SS Co 6: Barge begins lifting nuclear sub Kursk from sea floor 7: RCN TRIBAL CLASS COLOURS 8: Re: 1:48 WW 1 machine guns 9: Re: 1:48 WW 1 machine guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Books and Paints -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Baumbach, Werner" Subject: Russian Battle Groups Hello all, how would a typical Russian Naval battle Group look like? Which of these ships would be available in 1/700. There is the corvettes and missile boats and the Sovremeny that I am aware of. And the Kousnetzov as a Carrier. What about others. Would a Russian group be also accompanied by subs? Happy modelling Werner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Preston L Hassler Subject: Essex Class Carrier, Again-Real or Not? Hi guys, In the Nov 2001 issue of Fine Scale Modeler, page 9, there is an ad by Hobbyland in Indiana, offering an ICM, 1/350, plastic kit for an Essex carrier for $109.99 if ordered before Nov 15. List price quoted as $160.00. Is this just a straw poll to determine the marketability of such a kit before releasing or is it an actual valid offer for a kit to be released soon. Anyone know?? If it's just a poll, it might be our chance to get what we want by putting in enough votes. Anyone know if any etched brass might be in the design phase for such a kit? ie GMM? Thanks for any info, Skip Hassler Huntsville, Alabama, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Ron Hillsden" Subject: Re: Canuck Colours (Colors?) Michael Brown Sydney, Australia wrote: >> Do they have a sun in Canada? All I can remember from when I lived there is the wind, cold and snow, but pretty in Autumn. << You should have sampled Canadian Beer while you were here - much better than the Australian stuff. Maybe also why we can't figure out if the ships are blue or green! Ron Hillsden Victoria BC Canada Club: http://members.home.net/vmss/ Flags: http://members.home.net/ron-hillsden/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: 1:48 WW 1 machine guns >> The original Navy specs for my WW 1 110 Foot WW 1 submarine Chaser model allow either Lewis or Colt 30 caliber machine guns. They do not mention Brownings at all. Remember, this is the 1917/1918 era. << In Norman Friedman's US SMALL COMBATANTS, there is a discussion of the development of the 110' type, a number of photos, and the usual detailed drawings by Dave Baker. The Lewis guns depicted appear to be stripped; that is, the large heat sink around the barrel is missing. Given that, the guns from a 1/48 scale SE-5A aircraft kit (if there are any) would be appropriate. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "J. London" Subject: Pacific Mail SS Co Can anyone provide me with the color scheme for the ships of this company? Hull color, waterline, superstructure, masts and derricks, ventilators, funnel markings. They were certainly in business in the twenties. Ships flew the Panamanian flag probably as a "flag of convenience". Also info required on MS City of Panama of this line, built by Gotaverken in 1924, in particular gross tonnage and career. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Barge begins lifting nuclear sub Kursk from sea floor http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/national/41878_kursk08.shtml -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Dean, Tom" Subject: RCN TRIBAL CLASS COLOURS Hi Gang I'm at work and don't have access to the original message regarding the colour scheme for the RCN Tribals, but I think the msgs have drifted away from the original request. I think the writer was looking for the colour of the WWII type Tribals in the early 60's rather than the newer ones (280's). I don't know the official colours designations but will leave that to John Snyder and the other fellows to clarify. The RCN ships of the late 40's and into the late 50's sported the colours that you see now on HMCS HAIDA with the lighter upper works and darker hull. There are many photos available of the Tribals in this scheme. The newer St. Laurents coming out in the mid to late 50's came out in the same scheme although the upper works were lighter. In the early 60's the remaining Tribals appear in a light grey overall, although it is not the same grey that the ships now wear. I think this is the scheme that the fellow was asking about. This was the colour that HAIDA sported when she paid off. I know the colour was not the same as the colour now because HMCS ATHABASKAN II (mothballed) was tied up at a jetty at HMCS SHEARWATER in Dartmouth until 1967 and the colour was darker, more like an RN ship of the times. Just for interest, apparently even the present colour was still under question as late as 1968(?). HMCS KOOTENAY was painted in an overall dark scheme (USN colours?) with white pendant numbers for a number of months. I remember ships going out with her at various times and different weather, I assume for the scheme to rated against what the other ships sported. I don't remember the exact dates, too many ruined brain cells, but I can only guess the experiment was a failure and she took on her regular colours in about three months time. To see some the Tribals in different schemes (unfortunately in black and white) can go to the Canadian Tribal Association home page at http://webhome.idirect.com/~iproc/cta This will also take to to other sources as well the HAIDA page Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Shane Weier Subject: Re: 1:48 WW 1 machine guns Franklyn says: >> The whole question of machine guns seems rather academic anyway, as they also had a 3" deck gun with about a 3 mile range, but the U-Boats had a 4" deck gun, therefore the U-Boat could stay out of the Chaser's range and still pound the Chaser. (snip) The chasers had a top speed of around 18 knots, so the term "Chaser" seems inappropriate. << What was the top speed of a WW1 U-boat submerged OR surfaced? >> They were a pet project of then Ass't Secretary of the Navy Franklin Roosevelt. " 'nuff said"? << Excuse my antipodean ignorance, but this appears to be a non-sequitur Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: 1:48 WW 1 machine guns Concerning Franlyn's inquiry about 1:48 WW 1 machine guns, and their use aboard the WW-I era 110' subchasers, I will first address the similar thread that I placed on 1/72 and 1/48 weapons earlier. Aeroclub from England makes a number of 1/72, 1/48, and 1/32 scale white metal machine guns in their different versions. Below is the listings for their Lewis gun range. Aeroclub: (usually two guns in each pack) 1/72 ABG002 Lewis Mk.3 ABG012 Lewis Jacket type ABG017 Lewis 1914 Infantry ABG025 Hythe Camera Gun (Lewis) ABG026 Lewis on Foster Mount ABG031 French Darne Lewis 1/48 (two guns in each pack) ABG401 Lewis Mk. 3 ABG405 Lewis WW1 Mk. 2 ABG416 Lewis 1914 Infantry ABG417 Lewis WW1 Mk. 2 stripped ABG418 Lewis spent cartridge bag ABG419 Lewis ammunition drums (6) ABV052 Lewis gun & Scarff ring ABV100 Lewis guns & Scarff ring 1/32 (one gun only) ABG302 Lewis Mk. 2 ABG303 Lewis Mk. 3 Albatros Publications book on the Lewis gun, WSMD03, has been re-released. Concerning the Hotchkiss (which Colt took over the designs) machine guns, unfortunately Aeroclub of England only produces these weapons in 1/72 with two guns per pack. ABG016 WWI Hotchkiss ABG020 Hotchkiss Infantry type Concerning the addition of a single flexible mount for a hand aimed and trained machine gun goes back to the Spanish American War period. On many USN ships there was a carriage mounted Hotchkiss gun that could be landed to give a naval or marine landing party some extra firepower when needed. Though these weapons were fairly unwieldy in combat, being mounted high on their carriage mounts exposed the attending gun crew to potential enemy rifle or machine-gun fire. The Hotchkiss was not that particularly successful weapon when installed aboard ships of the USN, but the Lewis gun found an almost instant acceptance after it was introduced to the Fleet in the very early 'teen years of the last century. As the weapon was both light and easily dismountable from its flexible mountings for immediate hand-held operations, the Lewis became the weapon of choice on all USN ships. Concerning their intended use aboard the smaller vessels such as the 110' SCs, or even still on board many four-stacker destroyers as late as the beginning of WW-II mounted on the after steering deck, these weapons were intended as an earlier form of the modern "Close-in Weapons System" (CWS, of 'See-whiz'). Just as with its modern representative in the form of the CWS, the Lewis gun was a last ditch defensive weapon. Its use was to discourage boarders, keeping a watchful eye on deck crews of any vessels being approached or inspected, or at the very least, to help keep a submarine's gun crew from manning their guns so readily. If there is any doubt of the effectiveness of a well aimed and manned machine-gun mount against a submarine's deck crew in combat, there was at least one cargo vessel in the Gulf of Mexico that was able to keep a sub's gun crew from placing any telling or fatal shots against the fleeing vessel that it was chasing. It must be remembered, the Lewis gun was never expected to replace the continued firepower of the more heavier Vickers and Browning weapons. But, these weapons were relatively cheap to purchase and maintain in service, and as such, were added to almost anything that floated in the USN. Concerning combat effectiveness of a SC against a submarine, these vessels were only supposed to make the submarines keep their heads down until larger escort vessels could make their appearance. The SC's slow speed in relationship to a submarine is not the point that has to be remembered. SC type of craft had to be able to escort cargo ships that had an average speed of between eight and twelve knots, which was easily within the SC's capabilities to do. Even during WW-II, the idea of ANY escort was better than allowing the submarines to roam at will on the surface. There were many U-booten commanders that had to keep hidden along the American East and Gulf Coasts because of the noisy banging and clanging of either a PC or SC. And it should also be noted, that even during WW-II, that many U-booten commanders did not want to take a chance of 'slugging it out on the surface with any armed vessel for fear of a pressure hull breach. In closing, there were the following WW-I era 110' SC still in active service; SC-64, 102, 185, 229, 231, 330, 412, 428, 431, 432, 437 and 440. And, concerning the number of Lewis guns onboard a SC, there were two officially listed for its armament as antiaircraft or antisubmarine weapons. Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: wem Subject: Books and Paints Hi All, We've just gotten a couple more hard-to-find books in: 521. RAVEN, Alan and John Roberts, Man oš War 2: V and W Class Destroyers, Arms & Armour, 1979, s/b, 56pp, well-written history of the class, augmented with 110 photos, line drawings of Vidette as-built, Winchester in July 1942, 12 colour camouflage profiles, and a 4-page colour centrespread of Wolverine in late 1942. Rare and hard-to-find, VERY GOOD, 48.00 522. RAVEN, Alan and John Roberts, Ensign 5: Town Class Cruisers, Bivouac Books, 1975, s/b, 52pp, comprehensive history of the class, augmented with 75 photos, line drawings of design concepts, Belfast in August 1945, 7 colour and 9 black-and-white camouflage profiles, and a 4-page colour centrespread of Sheffield in winter 1941/42. Rare and hard-to-find, and as close to MINT as wešve seen in a while, 58.00 Prices are in British Pounds. In addition to those, we've gotten a couple more copies of Alan Raven's Ensign 1: King George V Class Battleships in, both priced at 55.00 We have more of these Ensign and Man o' War publications on the way, so if you're interested in a particular title, we may have it. Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models PS: ALL the Colourcoats paints are now in, except Teak. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume