Subject: SMML VOL 1380 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:59:17 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Essex Class Carrier, Again-Real or Not? 2: Adelaide frigate vs. USS Perry class and 1/300 PHOTOETCH 3: Re: Essex Class Carrier, Again-Real or Not? 4: Re: Russian Battle groups 5: Re: Tribal Colors 6: Russian Battle Groups 7: Re: Canadian Forces Paint Colour 8: Re: Pacific Mail SS Co. 9: Re: Essex Class Carrier, Again-Real or Not? 10: RCN TRIBAL CLASS COLOURS 11: Re: Canadian Colours 12: Machine guns on WW 1 Sub Chasers 13: Request for information about HMS Prince of Wales sinking 14: Opening of the battleship New Jersey as a museum -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: Modelers Symposium -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WP#12 and WP#14 now in stock 2: Commander Series E-Mail outage -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Essex Class Carrier, Again-Real or Not? Skip, ICM themselves, at the last trade show, stated that the Essex kit will not be available for at least one year more. Hope you can hold your breath that long! Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Ralph Batykefer" Subject: Adelaide frigate vs. USS Perry class and 1/300 PHOTOETCH Hello All, I have the Lee 1/300 Adelaide frigate and will be modifying it to the USS Perry class. What major changes are needed to complete this task? Also, I heard a while back on SMML that someone was planning on making a photoetch set for this kit. Has it been completed or is in in process? Thanks ahead of time... IHS, Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Re: Essex Class Carrier, Again-Real or Not? In SMML 1379 Preston asked about the ICM Essex carrier advertized inthe current FSM. The folks at Hobbyland are running a couple of months behind the rest of us. To make a short story longer. ICM has been slipping their release of the Hood several months at a time. Their release of the Essex is tied to that of the Hood. ICM's schedule, as reported in FSM's New Products report from the spring of 2001, called for the release of the Hood this summer and the Essex in November. If I remember correctly, the Hood release date was originally slipped to fall/winter of 2001 - and the Essex 4 to 6 months after that. At the recent RHCTA hobby industry show in Chicago ICM has again announced that the Hood has slipped - this time to first quarter of 2002 - and the Essex is slipped to the summer of 2002. ICM says that one of the reasons for the slip on the Hood is the increased number of sprues (from 8 to 12). ICM has yet to hit a release date for any of their ship kits. The good news is that according to ICM - work has begun on the Essex. How much work is not known. The list price that Hobbyland has in their ad is what was in FSM's New Product report from the spring. With the increased number of parts included in the Hood kit, will ICM be able to hold to their price on it? Will ICM be able to meet their projected sales numbers with a ship model that retails at 120 to 150 US dollars? (I'm not talking about hard core ship modelers - I'm talking about the impulse modeler - guy who walks into the hobby shop, sees it and has to have it right then and there). It is NOT a straw poll. This is Hobbyland running behind - coupled with the fact that the ad copy deadline for FSM is several months before the sales date on the magazine cover. If I'm not speaking out of turn, I believe that some preliminary work on the Hood PE has been done by White Ensign Models, based on their resin kit (now OOP). They will need to have the kit in their grubby mitts to verify parts fit before going into full production. Same with the other PE manufacturers. I would be very surprized if any PE manufacturer was doing anything on a 1:350 scale carrier at this time until the probability of a real, firm, release date was approaching. Real or not - until ICM releases their Hood - I vote NOT. When ICM releases the Hood - my optimistic guess at the schedule for the Essex is plus 9 months. Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Filipe Costa Ramires" Subject: Re: Russian Battle groups Hello Werner and list You also have the Udaloy destroyer and the Krivak frigate (both from Skywave) and normally they pay escort duty to the carriers. Besides Kuznetsov you still have Minsk and Kiev from Aoshima but they are old and poor models!!! For instance I have the idea of building an huge diorama with an Udaloy escorting Minsk. As far as I know nor corvettes (Nanuchka and Tarantul), patrol boats (Osa) or submarines usually make part of a Russian battle group. You also have Kirov in a resin version...a gorgeous ship!!! I hope this helps! Regards. Filipe C. Ramires Lisboa, PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "David Ian Moore" Subject: Re: Tribal Colors Note that in Canada we use either spelling of Colour. Thus it can also be either Blue or green or bluish green. The Brit. gray is definitely much more of a blue gray rather than the Blue green of the RCN colour. Of the Canadian Tribal built W.W.II and used up until the 60s pictures of the following exist in the same green colour used by the entire combat fleet including the Prestonian frigates and St Laurent and later class ships AFTER and since 1957. Most Ships until then did use the standards 2 tone scheme of dark and light (Brit.) gray. There may have been progressive shanges to the quality of the paint ie urethane or epoxy vs oil, but not to the basic color. The surviving tribals included Haida (paid off 64) , Huron in 65, MicMac, Cayuga Nootka in 64,Iroquois in 66 and Athabascan in 70. Color (green) photos may be seen of MicMac, Cayuga and Athabascan II and Nootka on the Naval Museum of Manitoba Website under the respective ships named. Black and white photos in the same scheme Post 1957 are in most references particularly Warships of Canada's Naval Forces. (the Bible) Haida as a museum ship does not wear her last operational scheme, but the later post war or Korean war scheme with WWII pendant #. It is True that Terra Nova 258 did wear the Haze gray scheme for one summer in the late 60s but she looked so peculiar and the crew so embarrassed she had to be repainted before winter. I believe it may have been another of Helyers (defence minister who lead to admirals resigning) integration experiments gone wrong similar to the moving of matelots to the GREEN uniform! Naval Museum of Manitoba Website: http://www.naval-museum.mb.ca/ Ian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Russian Battle Groups >> how would a typical Russian Naval battle Group look like? Which of these ships would be available in 1/700. There is the corvettes and missile boats and the Sovremeny that I am aware of. And the Kousnetzov as a Carrier. What about others. Would a Russian group be also accompanied by subs? << Hi Werner, the closest I could come to typical Russian Carrier Battle Group was the one deployed in Summerex 1985 exercises. The Northern Fleet Carrier Group consisted of Kiev, Kirov, 2 Krestas, 2 Sovremiennys, 2 Udaloys, 1 Kashin and 1 Modified Kashin. The Baltic Fleet Surface Group consisted of 1 Kynda, 2 Krivaks I, 1 Mod. Kashin and an oiler. The Northern Fleet Surface Group -1 Udaloy, 1 Krivak II and an oiler. Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: rolie muise Subject: Re: Canadian Forces Paint Colour The paint for the CF ships is made, at present, by International Paints. If any one wants a small sample of the REAL stuff,let me know. I add a bit of white to the REAL paint to give it a weathered look. Its not the sun, yes we have sun here in the GWN, that weathers the paint, RCN ships don't sit at the jetty long enough to get a tan, its the NORTH ATLANTIC,the cruelest ocean of all that ages the paint, ships and the men. rolie in Halifax -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: wem Subject: Re: Pacific Mail SS Co. Give me a couple of days to get home to my references, and I'll give you all their colors. Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: AAA Hobby Subject: Re: Essex Class Carrier, Again-Real or Not? Skip, The ICM kit is indeed real, or they intend it to be I should say. We got the word that the kit is coming in May 2002. The HOOD is first and the date is still Jan-Feb. The price is $159.99, but AAA is offering them at a special discount (I'll have to look it up!) if ordered before they get here. See you on Oct. 20th at the IPMS Huntsville show, and I'll bring ship kits! James -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Peter Chant" Subject: RCN TRIBAL CLASS COLOURS Thanks to all for replying to my query, so much detail that I am not sure I got the real picture. Tom Dean is right in that I was aiming for HMCS Haida in 1960, so am I correct that: 1. The light grey in the two-tone scheme (Light Sea Grey?, as per HAIDA today) was NOT the same used for the late 50's & 1960's overall grey? 2. That the 1960's overall grey was a bluey shade similar, or identical to, the then standard RN Light Admiralty Grey? 3. That the 1970's Tribals, and onwards, are in a shade that is similar to, but more green than, the current RN Light Weatherwork Grey? Sorry if I have misread anybody/everybody. Peter Chant Plymouth UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "M & R Brown" Subject: Re: Canadian Colours My request to the Defence Force was primarily on Annapolis but a did get a relatively general reply including this: "Generally speaking, all Canadian Navy ships have worn overall grey 501-109 since the late fifties. There was one case years ago where a Canadian Navy ship was painted in USN Haze Grey as an experiment, but that was not HMCS Annapolis and to my knowledge that was the sole exception." I've tried Haida twice to find out what colours she is now but they do not reply to emails. Would have like to have tried the beer but as I recall in Ontario they had some funny liquor laws which stopped a 9 year old from drinking! Michael Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Machine guns on WW 1 Sub Chasers To Shane Weier. Thank you for responding to my query about machine guns on a WW ! submarine chaser of the U.S.Navy. I do not know much about submarines, but in one of the texts I have about chasers, the speeds of the UB 1 of 1915 (start of WW 1) was given as 6 1/2 knots on the surface and 5 1/2 submerged. The UB 2 appeared in 1917 with a surface speed of 9 knots, submerged speed not given. This was quickly followed by the UB 3 with a surface speed of 13 1/2 knots and a submerged speed of 7 1/2 knots. Remember, they did not have "real-time" sonars back then. They had to stop, shut down all engines, deploy a crude device which consisted of inflated balloons and a stethoscope to detect the varying pressures caused by throbbing propellors. They then hauled in the balloons, fired up the engines, and headed for where they thought the target was. But it was moving, so the chaser had to repeat the process frequently, ad nauseum. The S/C were built in 1917 and 1918. Perhaps some SMML submarine experts can enlighten us further on WW 1 submarine speeds, etc. I assume that you are from Australia, and could not be expected to be familiar with U.S. politicians. Franklin Delano Roosevelt (pronounced "Rosevelt") was a wealthy Americn patrician and yachtsman with a forceful yet charismatic personality. During WW 1 he served as Assisstant Secretary of the Navy (the No.2 civilian in the Department). Well, things being what they are in any hierarchal-driven beaurocracy, when a Boss is interested in project, it gets done, whether it merits it or not. This is not to detract from the gallant crews that served, in any way, but the S/C overall value was, from some professional Navy people's point of view, marginal. The armament refered to was used minimally (not at all on many boats), the listening devices and depth charges were far more effective. the boats were often called "The Cinderellas of the Fleet" or "The Splinter Fleet". Roosevelt (or FDR as he was referred to in the USA) later became the governor of New York state, and president of the United States just before the recovery from the Great Economic Depression of the 1930s, and continued through most of WW 2. His forceful leadership as President saw him introduce many Social programs (such as Social Security, a government sponsored retirement program), and the development of the Atomic Bomb. I trust that given the above, my original " 'nuff said" ( an American slangy contraction of " enough said") remark is neither antipodal, nor a non sequitur. If not, I will be glad to discuss it further. I am sure that no offense was meant by your remarks, and can guarantee that none was taken. It all boils down to, in 1917, "The Boss wants this done. Just DO it !!!!" (FDR was indeed often referred to as "The Boss", but not where he could hear it). Franklyn (no relation) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Bruno Gire" Subject: Request for information about HMS Prince of Wales sinking Hi folks! About to start my next 1/700 diorama project, which will display HMS Prince of Wales at about 13h10 on December 10th, 1941, sixty years ago. The ship will be shown sinking by the stern, inclined to port, with destroyer HMS Express along taking her crew. I'll use Tamiya PoW + GMM etching + scratch and a scratch built Express, unless I locate a resin kit. What I got: - PoW wearing her four colour Admiralty camouflage sheme, down by the stern, inclined about 20° to port, with one (?) bomb impact somewhere. - HMS Express on PoW starboard side, with bow about at the battleship catapult level. What I suppose (need confirmation): - Main turrets in ship axis direction (not used against attacking planes) - Secondary DP turrets aimed at attacking planes What I need: - What are the camouflage four colours (507A, 507B, MS1, etc)? - What were the colours worn by HMS Express ? - A scheme of HMS Express at that time - What about the weather/ light conditions (supposed clear and sunny after a rainy morning ?) and sea condition. - Location of the bomb(s) impact(s). Size of resulting fire(s) and smoke. Thank you all for helping. Bruno Gire Bordeaux, France -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Schiefet@cs.com Subject: Opening of the battleship New Jersey as a museum On Monday, October 15, 2001, the Battleship New Jersey will officially open to the public. She has been moved to her new pier on the Delaware River and there will be a ribbon cutting ceremony there at 8:30 am. Public Tours will begin at 9:00 am. A large crowd is expected on opening day. For more information on tickets, schedules, how to get there and other topics you should contact the Home Port Alliance. Contact information for them is: HOME PORT ALLIANCE for the USS New Jersey, Inc. 2500 Broadway, Building P-1, Postal Drawer #18 Camden, NJ 08104 Phone: (856) 966-1652 Fax: (856) 966-1883 E-Mail: homeportalliance@aol.com www.battleshipnewjersey.org Just wanted to let you know about this event. Steve Pelham, NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Modelers Symposium Tri-Club 2001 to be held Saturday, November 3, 2001 will be the 7th Annual Meeting of the three Chicago area scale ship model clubs. The Nautical Research and Model Ship Society of Chicago, the Midwest Model Shipwrights and the North Shore Deadeyes meet as a group once each year for a full day of talks and demonstrations on scale ship modeling. Speakers come from within the clubs while outside speakers from various sources often represent manufacturers, maritime artists, noted visiting modelers, Navy and Coast Guard personnel and museum curators to name a few. The members bring their current and recently completed projects for display and an afternoon show and tell session with 30 or so models being the average displayed. Rolls, coffee and juices are supplied in the morning with a catered lunch and afternoon refreshments provided. Speakers this year will include local marine artist Jim Griffiths whose work has appeared in various nautical magazines. Jim will show and talk about his art. Edward Goyette, Exec. Director of the Museum Ship SS Willis B. Boyer from Toledo, OH will show slides of the extensive river traffic on the river by the Boyer. Local member Sidney Wotman will talk about Researching Your Next Project. There will be three round-table presentations in the afternoon by local members. Noted miniaturist Gus Agustin will show how he makes his magnificent and realistic flags. John Hazard will show how he makes his realistic billowed sails and David Crement will demonstrate resistance soldering. Jeff Phillips (former Editor of Model Ship Builder) will talk on the newly built Milwaukee Schooner’s first year of operation. The meeting is held in Northfield, IL (just off and between the 294 and 94 expressways) from 8:00 AM (registration) to 4:30 PM. Cost to non-members is $25. Contact Kurt Van Dahm at (630) 968-3189 or kurtvd19@voyager.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Keith Butterley Subject: WP#12 and WP#14 now in stock Hi group #12 Benson/Gleaves Destroyers Canada $21Cdn USA & Intl. $14US UK 10.50 GBP (Can anybody tell me how to make that funny L?) #14 USS Wichita Canada $18Cdn USA & Intl. $12US UK 9GBP Shipping is not included in the prices, go to the site and place your order through the appropriate portal to find out your shipping cost. PLEASE NOTE: credit card purchase's are now available through paypal.com. Remember: You can sell your used books or extra kits on the site at no cost or obligation, just email me with your ad. Regards Keith Butterley http://www.warshipbooks.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Jon Warneke Subject: Commander Series E-Mail outage Hi Everyone, Commander Series Models is experiencing some problems with our regular e-mail service. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused, and for the time being, please use the following address for any correspondences: ironship@vic.com Jon Warneke Commander Series Models, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume