Subject: SMML VOL 1381 Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:29:22 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: H.M.S. Prince of Wales 2: RCN COLOURS 3: Re: Request for information about HMS Prince of Wales sinking 4: Re: Request for information about HMS Prince of Wales sinking 5: Request for information about HMS Prince of Wales sinking 6: adelaide to perry 7: Re: Russian Battle Groups 8: WWI German floating drydocks? 9: Re: Prince of Wales & Express Diorama 10: Re: Canadian Colours 11: Re: Pacific Mail SS Co. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: Open model contest at Wausau, Wisconsin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: IHP Website Update 2: WSW/B-Resina resin kits from the company formerly known as Rocky Mountain Shipyard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Frank Allen Subject: Re: H.M.S. Prince of Wales Bonjour Bruno, To be honest, there aren't many geunine photos of the sinking ship...some shots taken from Express, and some pretty much useless shots taken from the attacking aircraft. There are also some supposed fakes purportedly taken from Japanese aircraft. I suggest you try the H.M.S. Prince of Wales and H.M.S. Repulse Survivors Association's "Force Z" website at http://www.forcez-survivors.org.uk/ To be honest, I'm not sure they would be happy about a model showing one of their ships sinking (I know our Association wouldn't support one showing Hood sinking), but they may help...they are indeed very nice people. Best Regards, Frank Allen (H.M.S. Hood Association website) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Tom Dean Subject: RCN COLOURS Hi Gang Great discussion on the RCN colour schemes. I knew the fellows in the know would join in supplying dates and examples, well done. Ian might be correct about it being TERRA NOVA, rather than KOOTENAY in USN haze grey, see my previous explanation about brain cells and the prolonged use of "Alexander Keiths" one of our finest ales! Just a few final comments on the colours. I looked up a picture taken in August of 1959 in Hamilton, Ontario of ships tied alongside at the reserve base here. It was the largest number of RCN ships ever to come up the Great Lakes. It was after, and to celebrate, the opening of the St Lawrence Seaway, with a NATO review off Toronto's waterfront as part of the Canadian National Exhibition. The ships at the jetties are the St. Laurents, GATINEAU, KOOTENAY, ST. CROIX, RESTIGOUCHE, TERRA NOVA, and the Prestonian Frigates, CAP DE LA MADELAINE, LAUZON, BUCKINGHAM. All ships are in the colour scheme that we now associated with Canadian ships, so that reinforces what the guys said about the time of change over. I know that the colour now has a strong green content. Although what the government may say this is the same colour as the 60's may be true, but I don't believe it was as green then. It was more a light grey even close up, I painted enough of the damn stuff! I have coloured pictures of ships I served in and they look almost white sometimes. On ship it was know as Grey 1-2, the decks were Grey 1-6, and the walkways were Grey 1-12, terminology now probably long gone. I assume it just evolved greener over the years, perhaps as stated with different and better paints. I still maintain that the paint I saw on the remaining Tribals was not as light as the rest of the fleet in the 60's. Again they were tied up or paid off and might have lost their sheen. Time for a good Canadian Beer! Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Filipe Costa Ramires" Subject: Re: Request for information about HMS Prince of Wales sinking Hello Bruno and List From the book "Hunting Z Force" of Richard Hough I've got the following information: - Secondary DP turrets aimed at attacking planes: Port turrets were "killed" during the first torpedo hits in the portside. This torpedoes destroyed the rudder and cut off all the portside energy of the ship. 5.25 DP guns could only be operated manually after that so I believe due to the fact of this inefficiency the guns were at zero degrees! About the Starboard DP guns I have a poor close-in picture of PoW starboard side and we can see one of this turrets aiming the barrels at high angle (probably 70-75 degrees). This picture was taken from Express bridge. It is left to note that this turret is aiming afterwards. It is also reported that 6 of the remaining 5.25 DP guns (starboard) opened fire against the last aircraft assault. - What about the weather/ light conditions (supposed clear and sunny after a rainy morning ?) and sea condition. Exact words of Richard Hough: "Dawn began to break at 5 am, revealing a clear sky of dull grey and mauve hues that faded only when a huge red sun arose slowly out of the sea behind them. For a while it seemed to give no heat, and the hair was strangely thin. The horizon was sharp and distant on every side." - Location of the bomb(s) impact(s). Size of resulting fire(s) and smoke. The only occasion that PoW was hit by a bomb was in the last assault when 9 bombers attacked her. One bomb (the only one to hit) landed and exploded on the portside main deck amidships, causing a fire. That's all I have for now. Hope this helps. Regards. Filipe C. Ramires Lisboa, PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Chris & Lulu Langtree" Subject: Re: Request for information about HMS Prince of Wales sinking Hi Bruno >> I'll use Tamiya PoW + GMM etching + scratch and a scratch built Express, unless I locate a resin kit. << Better to use the WEM etched set as this is far better quality, I know of no resin kit of an E class destroyer in 1/700 but B Resina do one of Hero, you'll have to modify/scratch build the bridge. However they are bringing out a model of Glowworm next year which should have the right bridge. Dimensions of the Es and G/Hs were different but not by much. >> - Main turrets in ship axis direction (not used against attacking planes) << Main armament trained fore and aft >> - Secondary DP turrets aimed at attacking planes << Photos show the two fore starboard turrets trained out about 5 degrees with their barrels elevated at about 15 degrees. One of the rear starboard 5.25 turrets is also visible (nearest the catapult) trained fore and aft with barrels elevated at about 50 degrees. I have no information about the port side but they were probably trained fore and aft with barrels elevated. Due to the list PoW was unable to use her 5.25 guns for most of the battle >> What I need: - What are the camouflage four colours (507A, 507B, MS1, etc)? << MS1, 507C, MS3 and 507B >> - What were the colours worn by HMS Express? << Probably overall AP507B with white pennant numbers >> - A scheme of HMS Express at that time << 4 x 4.7 inch, 1 x 3 inch HA replacing the aft tubes and 2 x 20mm Oerlikons >> - What about the weather/ light conditions (supposed clear and sunny after a rainy morning ?) and sea condition. << A clear sunny day with a few low clouds visible. Knowing the region, this means that it was very bright. The sea was calm. >> - Location of the bomb(s) impact(s). Size of resulting fire(s) and smoke. << She was hit by one bomb which penetrated the catapult deck on the port side and detonated on the armoured deck below. This forced the catapult deck up like a small mountain but it seems that there wasn't that much smoke visible. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject: Request for information about HMS Prince of Wales sinking Bruno: An excellent book on the the sinking of the H.M.S. Prince of Wales and H.M.S. Repulse (Force Z) is the book _Battleship_ by Martin Middlebrook and Patrick Mahoney. New York: Scribner's, 1979. On page 187 of that book, they say that the 500 kg bomb hit penetrated the catapult deck on the port side.Anothe statement said that it hit through the armoured deck of the plane-launching apparatus. You may want to inter-library loan this book. I think it will help you Kevin W. Woodruff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: adelaide to perry Now i may be mistaken on this, but I think that the ships are identical.. The RAN mounts the same launcher, the same CIWS, the same 76mm gun & would most likely have the same rods & junk on the masts.. Lately some of the Adelaides have had a few upgrades in relations to some sort of Radar or long distance viewing equipment. It sorta looks like an eyeball & is mounted right above the bridge. I have seen profiles on items that look very similar to what is mounted, but as i said i cant recall if its a sea-search radar (unlikely) or its a new form long range maybe even night or low visibility viewing equipment. If there wuld be changes it would be small ones & any differences in the real ships would be just the internals of the ship. but someone else here might know something that I don't -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Re: Russian Battle Groups >> how would a typical Russian Naval battle Group look like? Which of these ships would be available in 1/700. There is the corvettes and missile boats and the Sovremeny that I am aware of. And the Kousnetzov as a Carrier. What about others. Would a Russian group be also accompanied by subs? << I've seen pictures and read mention in books of varying battle group members. For a Kuznetsov- or Kiev-centered group, you'd probably have a Sovremenny or two, a Udaloy or two, one or two of the Krestas or Karas, and a Krivak or two. Kuznetsov would probably also have the Beresina along, the only Soviet AOR/AOE-type equivalent, while the Kievs might have her or one of the smaller oilers like a Boris Chilikin. Submarines and ASM-armed aircraft would operate in concert with surface forces. Their plan of attack was to fire multiple missiles from multiple directions, so the aircraft and the sub would be well separated from the surface group. I've seen a photo of a Mediterranean group centered around Moskva with two Petyas and two Nanuchkas. The Moskvas would operate with other anti-sub ships such as the Kresta I, Kara, and smaller ASW corvettes like the Grisha, Petya, Mirka and Riga. Such small vessels, and the missile corvettes, would be confined to near-litorral operations, due to their size and limited range, and not generally accompany the larger ships on deepwater ops. Personally, I'm building a Soviet SAG centered around Kirov or Frunze (whichever comes out first :-). It's based on a real group that transited from the Black Sea to Vladivostok, and has a Sovremenny, a Udaloy, a Krivak, an Echo SSGN, and a Bear patrol aircraft. I may add a Boris Chilikin if I can find plans, and perhaps one of the "K" destroyers depending on what Kombrig produces and how much money I want to spend. (It's meant to stand beside my US BB SAG, which is based on a photo, and has a BB, CGN, DDG, DD, and 4 FFs, plus an SSN and a P-3.) If you're planning a diorama you're limited by what's out there, though the list is getting bigger as Kombrig expands their line. As for typical, as you originally asked, there were three basic groups: Kuznetsov-centered, surface-warfare centered around a Kirov or Slava, and ASW-tasked based around a Kiev or Moskva. Oh, and amphibious groups, for which I have few useful references. The Ivan Rogov was their big multi-purpose ship, with some smaller LST-types. Such a group would probably be escorted by a Sovremenny for AAW and gunfire support. Also, for those of you building a US CVN group, you might add an "escorting" Kashin or Kildin. They'd hover around, and if the ball ever went up they'd turn tail and fire off their SSMs, which were pointed aft so they could retreat as they fired. Boy, I said a lot. I hope that gives you some direction. Joe Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: WWI German floating drydocks? >> From: fred lied [mailto:fwliedel@fan.net.au] I was hoping you may be able to help me with some information. I am trying to locate either photos or plans for floating dry-docks used by the German Navy during W.W. 1 . The reason is i would like to make a model of one to go with the modal I have of the Battleship Konig. I would really be grateful for any help you can give me. << This was originally sent to my wife at the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers. (She's their web manager.) They don't have any such info, nor do I, but perhaps one of you do. Thanks, Joe Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Prince of Wales & Express Diorama Hello Bruno, Good luck on your diorama of the Prince of Wales and the Express! When you are done, please post pictures somewhere. First, from most accounts the sea was fairly calm that day. Second, the weather was partly cloudy; the last Japanese air group to spot Force Z had to catch a glimpse of it through the clouds. Third, the Prince of Wales was certainly wearing her Admiralty First Disruptive pattern, but I can only guess at the colors. I have heard that Alan Raven may do something on the PoW in Volume IV of his Royal Navy camouflage series. Please note that the top her second funnel was painted in a very light color, possibly white. Fourth, the Express left England painted in a single color, perhaps 507B; there is an aerial photograph of her sailing from Scapa to Greenock. Fifth, by 1310 the PoW had taken one bomb hit. The bomb went through the catapult deck and exploded on the deck below. I would show a hole where the bomb went through the catapult deck. I would speculate that the catapult deck was bulged upward from the hit but that is only speculation. Sixth, I would put the 14-in. guns pointing fore and aft with normal elevation (15 degrees?). Seventh, I would have some of the 5.25-in. pointing up skyward (since they had last been used in the last high-level attack on the PoW), but bear in mind that only a few of them, mainly the forward ones, were operable in the last attack and others, mainly the after ones, might have been pointing at a lower angle single since they had not had power since the first (low-level) attack on the ship. Eighth, if you are using the Tamiya 1/700 kit, you would want to add a radar lantern between the forward 5.25-in. directors and would want to add seven 20mm guns (three in tubs on the quarterdeck forward of the single 40mm gun) and two each on either side of the bridge. Ninth, rather than scratch building the Express, could you use much of the B-Resina kit of HMS Hero? I hope this helps! Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "M & R Brown" Subject: Re: Canadian Colours Peter, My understanding of the last few days is that the RCN combatant vessels used a two tone scheme until 1957 and since then have been in their current light grey green. Except for one lonely vessel that was lumbered with USN Haze Grey for a short period. ie FS16099 & FS26329 and now FS16480. Someone once posted this formula for RCN Grey Green using ModelMaster paints but I have never had the colours (or inclination) to mix it up to see if it looks like the real McCoy. 5 parts Flat Gull Gray FS36440 1 part USSR Interior Blue/Green 3 parts Flat white BTW, the reason why I was trying to find RCN colours can be found on the SMML photo site which shows the last TF72 Regatta. HMCS Annapolis is there wearing a grey green scheme matched to a sample from our Canadian Committee Member. Michael Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: wem Subject: Re: Pacific Mail SS Co. OK, let's try this again. I've checked my copy of Talbot-Booth 1942, and there was no "Pacific Mail Steamship Company" in existence. There were obviously several British and American companies with "Pacific" in their names, but not "Pacific" and "Mail". What flag was this company purportedly under? If we can nail down the right company, I can still give you their colours. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Peter Samolinski" Subject: Open model contest at Wausau, Wisconsin On Saturday, October 20, IPMS "The Glue Crew" will hold their second annual Open Model Contest & Swap Meet at Wausau, Wisconsin's National Guard Armory from 10:00 'til 4:00. For additonal info you may contact me offline. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Michael Bartel Subject: IHP Website Update IHP has updated the website further to include the range of cancelled 1:700 ships. Though these kits are now discontinued, you can see information on most of them, including the long-gone BB-49 kit, which was my first kit way back in 1993! http://ihphobby.tripod.com/impspecialmenu.html Mike Bartel IHP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: rms Subject: WSW/B-Resina resin kits from the company formerly known as Rocky Mountain Shipyard Greetings and Salutations! Please check out our web site for great prices on all WSW and B-Resina resin ship kits: www.wic.net/~rms/ Available and listed are all of the new releases from both WSW and B-Resina. We have recently added the 1/700 ship accessories from WSW, plus all of the naval paint chips sets currently available from Snyder and Short. I will fax a purchase order to WSW in Germany on 26 October. Questions? Please contact me off list: rms@wic.net Thanks! Lisa D. Norman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume