Subject: SMML VOL 1383 Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:11:35 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: USN Flags 2: Is this hobby slowly disappearing? 3: Re: Hornet CV8 Hull Lines 4: Re: Pacific Mail SS 5: Re: Pacific Mail SS Co 6: Exhibition: The Art of the Ship Model 7: Russian battle groups 8: Re: Ship sinking diorama 9: ARIZONA 10: Re: POW 11: KM Graf Zeppelin reference 12: e-bay 13: Re: Book on World War ONE Coastal Forces? 14: Death At Sea 15: Force Z 16: ICM ships (not HMS Hood or Essex class) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Mini-Review: WEM aircraft for the Graf Zeppelin 2: Model Ship Journal for Autumn arriving -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Re: USN Flags Hello Derek, Generally, the national ensign flown on the stern of a battle ship would be about 9 feet by 17 feet 1 inch. The jack would be the same size as the star field in the ensign. As a shameless plug I will mention that my US Navy Flags and Pennants, 1931 to 1959 set in eithe 1/350 or 1/700 scale includes these flags as well as all the signal flags and pennants, ranked flags, and the US Coast Guard ensign. These are marketed under the Dunagain Decals label and are available from several retailers who have posted on this list. Thanks and regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Eduardo Luis Marcovecchio" Subject: Is this hobby slowly disappearing? Hello friends, First, sorry for the somewhat rude subject. But I'm getting really worried lately: I'm from Brazil, and I'm noticing many hobby stores closing their doors, and the few remaining ones are carrying almost only cars and planes. My only option for quality kits and tools is the internet, and it's getting too expensive for me to buy this way. Also, I see very few kids interested in the hobby, and most of them don't like ships, they like cars and planes. It's years since the last time I saw a kid in a store with a ship kit on his hands. Please, I would like to hear from you guys all over the world, your opinions about this: Is this thing happening only here? Or is it a general tendency? Are computers, videogames, TV, premature sexuality stealing the interest of the kids? Do they think static plastic models are too boring to build, and boring to play with, because they don't make sounds or move on their own? Any suggestion on how to change this situation? I know how nice and educative is this hobby, and I don't want to see a whole generation (and perhaps the following ones) to miss all this. Thanks! Eduardo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SolidStump@aol.com Subject: Re: Hornet CV8 Hull Lines >> I have a friend who plans to scratch build a 1/144 scale Hornet CV8. He has all the plans he needs except the hull lines. He has queried the usual suspects for these and came up empty. Does anybody know where we might be able to find hull line? Scale doesn't matter - he has access to a pantagraph. Of course the larger the better. Any help is appreciated. << Floating Drydock has listed Yorktown, Hornet and Enterprise plans for quite a while. I The TFW series by Tom Walkowiak are exceptionally good. They also have the G series plans redrawn from government archives. Has your friend tried this "suspect"? Simon Scheuer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Daniel H Jones Subject: Re: Pacific Mail SS >> Can anyone provide me with the color scheme for the ships of this company? Hull color, waterline, superstructure, masts and derricks, ventilators, funnel markings. << I believe the following color scheme would be correct for Pacific Mail at this time. Hull black (no waterline color), white superstructure, buff colored masts, derricks and ventilators, buff funnel with black top. Pacific Mail SS acquired three ships in 1916 from the Royal Dutch West India Steamship Company - EQUADOR, VENEZUELA, and COLOMBIA - operating them on the run from New York to Panama. These ships were operated (at least for a while) in the colors that they had when acquired - green hull with white riband, white superstructure, buff funnel with white stripe and black top, buff vents and masts. However, I have found no evidence that this scheme was extended to other Pacific Mail ships. >>Also info required on MS City of Panama of this line, built by Gotaverken in 1924, in particular gross tonnage and career. << CITY OF PANAMA - Motorship, twin screw, 12-1/2 knots. built by A/B Gotaverken - acquired in 1924. Sister ship CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO. Carried 59 first class pasengers, 60 third class, and about 3000 tons of cargo. Length 296' - beam 46' tonnage 1350 net - 2434 gross. In service from San Francisco to Panama - under Panamanian flag registry. From 1915 controling interest in Pacific Mail was owned by Grace Line. When the Pacific Mail SS was closed down in 1925 Grace Line and the Dollar Line acquired most of the ships, the two motorships going to Grace. Both ships were transferred to the newly formed Panama Mail Steamship Company (wholely owned by Grace Line) In 1929 both ships acquired American flag registry. In 1931 both were transferred to the New York to Callao service, and at this time were renamed to conform to the Grace Line nomenclature - CITY OF PANAMA becoming SANTA CATALINA (II), CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO becoming SANTA MONICA. Both went back to San Francisco the next year. They went back to New York (for the last ime) in 1936 and were renamed once more - SANTA CATALINA becoming CHIMU (II). The following year both ships were deemed to be surplus to requirements and were offered for sale. CHIMU (II) was acquired by British buyers for service to Baltic ports as a 12 passenger freighter.- renamed BALTAVIA. At the outbreak of WW II BALTAVIA was requisitioned for war service and served in various convoys (sorry - I have not located any particulars yet) with distinction through the war and was returned to Baltic service when hostilities ended. She was sold sometime in the 1950's to China - renamed SHUN SHING. She was broken up in 1964. Daniel Jones Plastic Ship Modeler magazine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Pacific Mail SS Co My thanks to John Snyder, Don Bridge and Ron Hillsden for their response to my query. I guess my question now must be what were the colors of the City of Panama at the time of her completion in 1924 or 1925. Did she carry American President or Grace livery or was she wearing the colors of Pacific Mail before it was absorbed by one or other of the two lines? If so what were those colors? Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: andy vu Subject: Exhibition: The Art of the Ship Model Hi guys: Take note! There is a new museum in Houston, in the Medical Center area: The Houston Maritime Museum, 2204 Dorrington, Houston, Texas Tel.: (713) 666-1910 Opening hours: Tue to Friday: 10AM-4PM For other days: call to make arrangements. Admission is FREE!!! It is entirely created, financed and managed by Jim Mazelillo, a retired shipyard owner, just for the love of ship models. Most of the models are made out of wood, about sailing ships and men-of-war. There are also modern ships: World War 2 warships, fishing trawlers, tug boats, cargo and passsenger ships. Some are very big. Please come by whenever you are in Houston. From Oct 13 to Oct 28, the museum is open every day of the week, week-ends included, for a special exhibit of models made by the "Gulf Coast Historical Ship Modelers Society". There are very nice wood and/or plastic models including a 6-foot long Swedish man-of-war Wasa and a 6-foot long American light cruiser Oakland. You can also see many other models of the museum permanent exhibition including a 6-foot long Missouri. Remember: Admission is FREE! Come by, SMMLies! Andy Vu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Mike Potter Subject: Russian battle groups As Joe Poutre wrote, the USSR apparently planned to operate different types of surface action group. I'll add details from my reading and from direct experience. An ASW group, or really a pro-submarine warfare group, was centered on a KIEV-class "heavy aircraft-carrying cruisers" with large ASW ships (BPKs) in company: Kresta, Kara, and Udaloy types. The purpose of this group was to cover a pre-war breakout of Soviet submarines through oceanic choke points, most famously the GIUK gap. To preclude friendly fire, Soviet submarines probably would not operate in direct support of this group. A group of this ASW type operated in the Indian Ocean in 1979 in transit to the Pacific Fleet. It was centered on MINSK and included Kresta-I BPK VLADIVOSTOK and Kara-class BPKs TASHKENT and PETROPAVLOVSK. For two weeks the Soviet formation often also included my destroyer USS ELLIOT (DD 967), a very interested tattletale, so if you model this group, please include her. ELLIOT usually kept station directly behind MINSK so as to photograph the undersides of Forger VTOL jets when they approached to land. Satellites had already photographed the jets' upper sides. A surface combat group was centered on a KIROV-class cruiser and included missile ships of two types: several armed with long-range missiles and others armed with short-range missiles. Long-range shooters included SLAVA-class ships and possibly submarines from the ECHO and OSCAR classes. Short-range shooters, intended to finish off survivors after a long-range strike, included Sovremennyy-class destroyers. This sort of task group seemed to have an anti-carrier mission, of the same sort the USSR exercised in the eastern Mediterranean during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war. The same group might cover amphibious operations, using Sovremennyy-class destroyers for fire support. The KUZNETSOV-class of aircraft carriers was begun initially only to provide air cover for other Soviet naval operations. The USSR was in an advanced state of collapse when the first appeared. By western naval logic the other two types of surface action groups (see above) would operate closer to the front, with the carrier group maneuvering independently in the rear as necessary for flight operations. The carrier group's surface escorts might include primarily Udaloy-class BPKs for ASW screening and Sovremmennyy-class destroyers for surface defense and air defense. Whether that was the USSR's plan, I know not. An earlier attempt at a surface action group possibly included the Kynda class as the center, or the MOSKVA class in a reported early all-missile configuration (possibly including nuclear missiles to attack American ports). Kresta-I and Kresta-II cruisers (both designs were modifications of the Kynda design) were the accompanying long-range and short-range shooters, respectively. The necessary anti-ship missiles failed in development. Meanwhile the US deployed Polaris submarines, so all three classes were completed instead for ASW missions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Ship sinking diorama >> This might be opening a can of worms, but is it in good taste to make a model of a ship sinking ie people dying? just a thought << Malcolm, I have never personally had a problem with dioramas as you mentioned as long they were historically accurate and in good taste. Good taste covers a lot of ground. The POW sinking would not offend me because of it's vast scale. I mean it would be difficult to call attention to the horrors of battle in such a small scale as 1/350 or 1/700. I have often considered doing a Titanic model just as you suggest. I.E. most of the bow under the water with the hundreds of people crowded on the stern, people in the water, lifeboats surrounding the vessel etc. Like the POW, Bismarck, Titanic, etc., as long as it is historically accurate, it wouldn't bother me. However, in larger scales I could see a problem. As with an airliner crash with body parts strewn about would upset me. Or a 1/35 scale tank with the turret blown away and blood spattered about should be considered carefully. There's no need to get morbid about such things. We all understand what bombs, bullets and napalm can do the human anatomy, but there's no need to graphically show it. Like I said, "In good taste" and consider those who will be seeing the model. Let your conscience be your guide. Rusty White 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention Chairman OKC IN 2003! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Singcarol234@aol.com Subject: ARIZONA Can anyone tell me what color the upper mast's were on 7,DEC 1941? Several have told me that they were white, several have told me that the fore mast and platforms were gray and the rear were black. I have exhausted research in this area looking for this...any help out there? Bob Hauryluck -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: JVT7532@aol.com Subject: Re: POW >> This might be opening a can of worms, but is it in good taste to make a model of a ship sinking ie people dying? just a thought << Malcolm, there are two answers to this and you must select which one you wish to represent in your modeling. 1) The Historically correct 2) The Politically correct I myself always strive for number 1, however beware of all those number 2's just waiting to pounce on you if you are a number 1. Personally, I'm totally feed up with number 2's as they cannot face reality in my book. Best regards, Jon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: joe.sus@att.net Subject: KM Graf Zeppelin reference There's always some guessing to such semi-fictional modeling, but the 109s and Stukas would likely have had the typical scheme for these planes, with the greens RLM 72 & 73 replacing the standard land colors. The Arados had a similar splinter scheme with the demarcation line to the underside blue high on the fuselage. Of course, the 1943 air groups to match the Revell kit should have been Me155s and later model stukas, with colors much less settled. There's an interesting reference, besides the usual books and magazines: the Polish paper model kit. It's far more detailed and accurate than the Revell, and zapped down to 1/728, is an excellent source of patterns for kit improvements. The planes all are done in color, with different ID markings for each plane, done with the proper squadron codes. Joe Suszynski -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: nd.ward@virgin.net Subject: e-bay I've recently been trying out e-bay, at the present only e-bay UK but will probably be spreading my net a little further on one or more of the overseas sites. E-bay UK doesn't have that many ship models compares to say, aircraft, but keeping your eyes on the site means you may be able to pick up a bargain. I've recently picked up the Hasegawa 'Hancock' and the 'Akagi' (although without instructions), and the Fujimi 'Jintsu', all at, or less than half price. Just a few pointers, although it's probably obvious to you. E-bay is a notorious site for the collector -- the person who buys something, with no intention of making it, or even opening the box!. The price for an original boxed model can be many times the amount for the same plastic, only in a more modern box, so as soon as I see 'original issue' or similar, I tend to look elsewhere. Don't be tempted to increase your bid, set a maximum value that you think it's worth, then STICK to it. Don't forget - postage and packing is extra, allow for this in working out your final bid, ask the seller how much p&p is before bidding. Read the description, 'original parts in box' may be kosher, but could also mean 'no instructions or decals' (as I had on a recent seaplane model). When in doubt ASK. Remember, e-bay depends on fair and square trading, it's in e-bays interest to keep it this way, they can sort out any unresolved problems. Just keep your eyes open, recently a John Piper white metal 1/72 'Grey Goose' model was offered, I don't know how much it finally made, 125GBP was the last I saw, but when was the last time you saw that for sale? Many thanks to Ken Hagerup for the scanned Akagi instructions Dave Ward -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: PT Dockyard Subject: Re: Book on World War ONE Coastal Forces? John and Al, After you send Allied Coastal Forces #3 down the slipways, how about a nice comprehensive book on WW1 coastal craft? There is very little out there on British 80' Elco MLs & CMBs, German LM boats (I have only found one drawing of this type) or any of the Russian, Italian or US boats. I have seen what is in Fock's book on Fast Fighting boats, but a single source lavishly illustrated would be soooo welcome. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Death At Sea >> This might be opening a can of worms, but is it in good taste to make a model of a ship sinking ie people dying? << Taste is in the eye of the viewer. Maybe you could show a few selfless acts of bravery in the sinking diorama. People giving up their lifejackets to injured seamen or helping someone into a raft, etc, depending on the scale of course. If anyone has a problem with depicting death at sea in your model, it's their problem not yours. In some circles, the very fact that our ship models carry guns is offensive (believe me, it has caused two MSJ subscribers to cancel) and some school districts might look at a warship model as falling under the 'no gun tolerance' rules if some kid brought it to show-and-tell. Death at sea is a natural and unstated part of what we model. Those weapons we so diligently scale and replicate means death to someone on the receiving end. If done right a tragedy at sea, whether from disaster, war or accident can cause the viewer to think and reflect on those whose voyages continue until, "The sea shall give up the dead." One of the most moving "models" I have ever laid my eyes on is the Merchant Marine Memorial sculpture in New York Harbor. It depicts torpedoed survivors pulling their dying comrades from the water. It's all in how you handle it. Victor Baca MODEL SHIP JOURNAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: Force Z According to Bloody Shambles Vol.1 by Christopher Shores/Brian Cull & Yasuho Izawa the aircraft atacked in waves of 2 & 3 abreast. Eight torpedoes were released & 4 hits claimed, yet only 2 hit. One struck home port side aft, the other abaft "y" turret. It also says that 4 more hits when she was out of power & control: 1 torpedo hit well forward & blew a hole which erupted through the other side & the 2nd hit forward of the bridge & a 3rd hit alongside the rear 14inch turret, while the 4th damaged the propellers. Near the end of POW a bomber put a 500kg bomb dead amidships. Repluse: bombs: - 1 falling either side of the battlecruiser & 1 hitting her amidships (penetrating the catapult deck & exploding). 1 torpedo amidships, 1 torpedo near th eengine room, 1 near the 15inch turret & another on the stern (appears that all 3 were on the port side). Another torpedo hit the E boiler Non-japanese aircraft in the area: It also appears that a walrus (from Repluse having to observe radio silence flew back to his ship to report a sighting, accidentally led the 1st wave of attacking aircraft to force Z..8 Sqn RAAF hudson watched the entire battle..1 Buffalo from 4 PRU & 10 Buffaloes from 453 Sqn. These buffaloes few low over the survivors (if you wanted to put that in your display low enough that a pilot thought "survivors waving & cheering & joking as if they were holiday makers @ Brighton) Enemy aircraft: G3M's & G4M's Weather: There is no mention of actual weather conditions, but it does mention that one group nearly missed the attack for thickening clouds & dropped below the clouds & saw Force Z. A 243 sqn Buffalo pilot reported he saw quite amount of mist, but was able to spot the oil & the a battleship floating helplessly in choppy seas & one final thing: the next morning a lone G4M of the Kanoya Ku, flown bythe 3rd Chutai's commander, appeared over the scene of the sinkings & dropped a wreath in honour of the men of his Chutai in the battle - & who knows maybe of the British seamen as well -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Mike Connelley Subject: ICM ships (not HMS Hood or Essex class) Howdy: Am I the only one holding out hope for the ICM Takao class cruisers? I'd like to see a Hood and Essex in 1/350 plastic as much as the next guy, but I'm really excited about being able to get a 1/350 Takao. Has anyone heard anything...anything at all...regarding these cruisers? They were announced at the same time (more or less) as the Hood. Where as folks say they Hood will be out in 6 months and work is underway on a carrier, I haven't heard a peep about the Takao class cruisers. Cheers Mike Connelley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Timothy Dike (cadman@modelwarships.com) Subject: Re: Mini-Review: WEM aircraft for the Graf Zeppelin >> It's nearly impossible to put much detail on planes this small, but here and there you will notice nice little touches. The landing gear on the Ju-87Cs, for example, is handled very nicely. OTOH, the gear on the Bf-109Ts doesn't appear to be that good. I'm no expert on the 109, so I'll have to check sources. << I don't know if those aircraft come with their own PE sets, but if not try the WEM 1/700 Fixed Wing Aircraft Parts photoetch set. We did a review of this set at: http://modelwarships.com/reviews/pe/whiteensign/wem-ac/wem-ac.html. >> if anyone has any good quality photos showing fine detail on the ship that they could send me i would be very grateful. << There is a buildup review of the Tamiya POW by Len Roberto at: http://modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/hms/hms-pow/350/hms-pow-lr.htm You might also find the ones in the Gallery helpful as well. Patric Roach and Andy Elwood have both built this kit with stunning results. http://www.modelwarships.com/gallery/bb/bb-index.html Timothy Dike Webmaster and Editor ModelWarships.com http://www.modelwarships.com/index1.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Model Ship Journal for Autumn arriving The latest issue of Model Ship Journal is arriving in subscriber's mailboxes and hobby shop shelves now. This time, we've packed the magazine with detailed photographic research and plans for everything from WWI Subchasers to The IJN Ashigara. Features include naval YTB tugs, an oiler, an aircraft carrier, a corvette, a BB and a German DD with a heck of a lot more between the covers. And, as usual, unique centerspread plans you won't find anywhere else reproduced in a common modeler's scale for scratch builders. If you're not subscribing, you're missing out on the best scale ship modeler's magazine available. Check our website at www.modelshipjournal.com The next issue begins production in November. We will be honoring rescue vessels of all types and sizes. Regards, Victor Baca Editor & Publisher MODEL SHIP JOURNAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume