Subject: SMML VOL 1388 Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:51:53 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Decline of the Hobby 2: decline/cost of our hobby 3: Re: What planes in the FAA? 4: Banner Arizona 5: Re: A Volume IV now? 6: WSW/B-Resina kits 7: Re: Subchasers versus German WW-I "U-" and "UB-boats 8: Aurora Skipjack 9: Re: new Arizona 10: Re: Dying Hobby 11: Hobby slowly dying 12: Heller kits 13: Re: ICM HMS Hood -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Toms Arizona set -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Michael Bartel Subject: Re: Decline of the Hobby I have to wonder...is this the same group of people that routinely lambasts the old kits from Lindberg, Revell, and others that are under $50.00? Those kits may be short on detail and accuracy, but they have one redeeming feature- their prices. Great for entry-level ship modelers. What about all those old 1:700 waterline series kits that are now being replaced with newer versions? Not worth much on the secondhand market, but ideal for a younger modeler if they can find them cheap enough. They aren't difficult to build at all. Those Nichimo 30cm motorized kits are cheap and detailed, and you can play with them when you are finished building them. Younger modelers don't care if the Fujimi Lexington has an inaccurate hull. They don't care if the Lindberg Hood is an abomination. They look beyond moulded-on railings. They don't care if the kit has no detail, or 10 parts where there should be 500, or one piece vs. two-piece hulls. Photoetch may not be for them just yet, to say nothing of kitbashing. When I used to work at a hobby shop, people came in and asked for snap-together ship kits for their kids. All we had for them was the Lindberg snap-series of smaller ships. We lost a few sales on those days. The Hood hadn't been re-released yet, but I would have recommended it immediately. I built the Lindberg Hood myself back when I was 11. Along with other inexpensive ship kits (including some waterline series kits), it helped start me on the route to a serious modeling hobby, and later a business. It was fun for an 11-year old kid! I knew nothing about the Hood's details (which I knew were lacking when I saw pictures of the real ship), but I was happy that it was a model of the Hood. Now that I am older and wiser about the Hood, I expect to see ICM produce an excellent kit, and I'm prepared to pay the price for that excellence. I would also like to see Lindberg continue to produce their $20.00 Hood so that more young modelers can start on the road that I started and keep this hobby going. So, if a youngster asks you how to get started in this hobby, or if you want to buy your 11-year old a ship kit, don't steer them away from the cheap kits we perceive as crappy. Point them towards the old Revell and Lindberg kits. Give them some of your older, unbuilt waterline series cruisers and battleships from your collection (you wouldn't get too much for them on eBay these days, anyway). Buy a few and build them with the kids, if you can. You won't be spending a lot of money but you will get something more important out of it- a chance to spend time with your kids and the knowledge that you helped plant the seeds of a future modeler (i.e. a future customer for the model companies and remaining hobby shops). For the cost of one ICM Konig, you can get several cheap kits and give your young builders some variety. This is helpful because we all know the attention spans of young kids these days. We trash the older kits, and then wonder why we can't get young people interested. It's not just the proliferation of other things for them to be interested in. It's also partly the lack of proliferation of starter kits for them when they do look in this hobby's direction. And, we do nothing to help the situation when younger modelers look at these boards and see the trashing of cheaper kits that could be excellent starter kits. Just some thoughts, Mike Bartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "john fiebke" Subject: decline/cost of our hobby I just wanted to put in a word about the costs of our hobby, as I keep hearing people complain about the price of our hobby. I have several hobbies, and this one is by far the most affordable. $25 dollars for a 1/700 japanese cruiser, $10 in photo-etch, on top of the paint and airbrush that keep giving...and I'm entertained for a month. I'm also a musician. Does anybody know how much a Les Paul guitar costs? How about the home-recording equipment to have something to show your friends? The cd burners, the guitar strings, the micro-phones...we're talking several thousand here, friends. My father is an avid model railroader. I spent my childhood being dragged to huge model train conventions. They make they're top of the line scale models completely out of brass. $300-$1000 a pop if I remember. Maybe less now, but even just a year ago my I watched my father drop $250 for an old lionel train. Who here is into RC? They'll laugh at our ridiculously low cost of enty. Sure, resin is expensive, but we at least have the option of staying with injection. Yes, the days of $5 kits at K-mart seem to be over, but you can still get affordable kits for your kids. We just have to face up to the fact that the industry has to raise prices because fewer people are buying. Its simple economics, and for every kit that you don't buy because its five or ten dollars more expensive than when you were a kid, well then thats less money that a manufacturer will have to risk on producing a (drool) 1/350 Takao. Of course, now that I think of it, for every kit that I actually build I buy ten, so the costs are high but there's no-one to blame but me. Sorry to vent, but this hobby, in reletive terms, isn't all that costly. Nothing fun is free. John Fiebke -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Graham Boak" Subject: Re: What planes in the FAA? >> Somebody mentioned the other day about the need to relieve themselves every once in a while with the odd quickie plane or two in between ships. Well I must say I do have to agree with that. .........Planes just come out of a box and that's all there is to it! << Hi, Darshan Funny that. As a long-time aircraft modeller I felt that way about ships. They are so much simpler as shapes, no interiors to worry about, all just painted grey so no difficult camouflage schemes, no need for a massive research library...and best of all, there are so many fewer of them! Then there are tanks...... Best wishes Graham -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Joel Labow Subject: Banner Arizona In addition to Steve Wiper's article in MSJ there are illustrated reviews of both the kit and Toms and GMM detail sets posted on the Steelnavy.com website. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: A Volume IV now? >> At the risk of starting one of those ridiculous arguments AND biting the hands that may provide Volume III, I beg to differ on the "Not a great deal to choose from" on WW1 small craft. << Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, it's keelhauling for ye, mate..... :-} >> As I said, this is just my opinion and wish. The First War always seems to get shorted. << I may be speaking out of turn for John (sorry, mate!) but, from a time standpoint, he and I don't have too many more books in us and it's likely that we'll concentrate on WWII and beyond for any future work. Dave has a good point, however; naval vessels from the WWI period are not well-represented in print. I'd certainly like to see something done on the 80' ELCO MLs and the SC1 class subchasers and probably on the CMBs. Come to think of it, Dave, it sounds like a good project for you to pursue... :-} Really. You have an enthusiasm for the type, have done some of the necessary research, and undoubtedly have an interest in the finished product. Actually, we really need some "new blood" in the field. Most of us who have done heavily-illustrated books like the Anatomy of the Ship series, ACF, or Norman Friedman's Illustrated Design History series are over 50 and there don't seem to be many new folks doing similar work. There are certainly a myriad of interesting ships from a variety of time periods that should be covered in a comprehensive manner and I suspect that there is a lot of talent among the SMML readership who could produce some wonderful works that would benefit us all. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Gernot Hassenpflug Subject: WSW/B-Resina kits Excuse my ignorance, but are WSW and B-Resina kits available from WSW directly, somewhere in Europe? A websearch did not find WSW. Apart from WEM, and possibly Hannants, are there any other recommended mail order vendors that might stock these items, in the UK or Europe? Best regards, Gernot Hassenpflug -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: Subchasers versus German WW-I "U-" and "UB-boats There has been some discussion about the relative top speed, both surface and submerged, of German WW-I "U-" and "UB-boats versus the USN 110' Subchasers. According to Appendices G of "Mediterranean Submarines", by Michael Wilson & Paul Kemp, the following relative surface speeds appear: Submarine Speed/Endurance Surface Endurance Dived U19 - 21 class (first diesel boats) 15.5 / 9 9,700 mlsat 8 knots 80 mls at 5 knots U32 - 39 16.5 / 9.5 8,790 mls at 8 knots 80 mls at 5 knots U63 - 65 16.5 / 9.5 9,170 mls at 8 knots 60 mls at 5 knots U72 (known as the UE 1 class minelayer, U73 similar) 16.5 / 9.5 7,880 mls at 7 knots 83 mls at 4 knots UB1 (UB I type, also UB3 to UB15) 6.5 / 5.5 1,650 mls at 5 knots 45 mls at 4 knots UB42 - 47 (UB II type) 9 / 6.25 6.940 mls at 5 knots 45 mls at 4 knots UB48 (UB III type) 13.5 / 7.5 9,040 mls at 6 knots 55 mls at 4 knots In John Alden's book "The Fleet Submarine in the U.S. Navy" (pp. 3-4) there is the following quote: "By 1912, the world's major navies were building substantial numbers of reasonably effective submarines of about 400 tons displacement and 160 feet in length, armed with four or more torpedo tubes 18 inches in diameter, and capable of maximum speeds of about 14 knots on the surface and 10 knots submerged.' And, 'Professor Reginald A. Fessenden, inventor of the electro-acoustic oscillator bearing his name, joined the Submarine Signal Company in 1912 and began to perfect the devices that were the forerunners of sonar." As any nations' submarine and anti-submarine tactics were very fluidic in their nature in 1912, by 1914, their was a General Board working paper for a "fleet submarine" that was to have a similar role to a destroyer or torpedo boat, which resulted in the ordering of "USS Schley" (No. 52, T-1). Because of the Navy Department's efforts to break Electric Boat Company's monopoly in the building of submarines, with many defects and questionable quality, entered into the unheard of business of being its own contractor, without competitive bidding. The squabble between the Navy and Electric Boats was resolved, and resulted in the "O-class" of submarines. Essentially, the war between the more progressive and younger members of the submarine community and the elder "Battle Fleet" controlling members of the Navy Board could not agree on where America's "isolationism" meant to what the Navy needed. Admiral Dewey, Chief or the Navy's General Board, obviously was against anything that threatened the role of the "Battle Fleet", and against any form of "fleet submarine". Electric Boat, which then lobbied heavily in Congress, was one of many against such devices or vessels designed to defeat their product. The sinking of the so many vessels by the then new "submarine war" resulted in the 1916 Congressional crash program of ordering the mass production of destroyers, submarines (with a few "fleet submarines", and, Submarine Chasers. FDR, being a dedicated Democrat against the continued monopoly of the then so-called "naval-industrial complex," was not in favor of the Material Board only doing business with either Electric Boat or the Lake Torpedo Boat Company. So, FDR's motivation for ordering the Submarine Chaser was a result of what would eventually result in the "Neseco" (New London Ship and Engine Company, a subsidiary of Electric Boat, as was the Electric Dynamic Company [Elco]) controversy of 1920-21, too few major military contractors for an even fewer contracts. Another book about this subject is "Forged In War, The Naval-Industrial Complex and American Submarine Construction, 1940-1961" by Gary Weir. Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: annobon4@aol.com Subject: Aurora Skipjack Hi Guys I recently purchased the reissue of the old Aurora USS Skipjack kit. It's being done by Revell Germany and much to my surprise the hobby shop was selling it for $5.00 a piece. An that's it catalogue price.The scale is 1/230th. Now I recall the orginial version by Aurora had a hatch with a color photo of a nuclear reactor. Does any one else remember that? This version allows you to build a reactor room with what looks parts from the old Polaris kit. 2 walls and a center piece that looks like a cap boiler. I'm thinking of painting it. My research says that US Nuclear Subs had the ship name or hull numbers painted over when they went out on patrol. Yet the Skipjack was built in 1958 so there was a time when numbers were on subs. What colors were they painted at that time? Any help would be appreciated. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Burl Burlingame Subject: Re: new Arizona The Banner and the Trumpter kits are the same. The 1/700 Trumpeter Arizonas have been shipped from China already... Burl Burlingame -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SolidStump@aol.com Subject: Re: Dying Hobby >> Has anyone even looked at the costs involved in this hobby lately? Who in their right mind would pay over $100.00 for a "model"???? You gotta be kidding me ! I don't know of any kid, who has that kind of money to throw around, even with a lot of detail, etc. It just ain't worth that kind of price...... << It's true that the better stuff is expensive but look at the costs for competing activities. Playstation $250, games $30 - $40 a pop. I don't think the cost of models is really the problem. It is the perception of the effort involved to get a "sweet/awesome/hot/cool or whatever" model. Seems like it's kind of nerdy to "work" on anything these days. media pressure/peer pressure, etc. Kids want to be "sweet/awesome/hot/cool" and models just aren't. When I was growing up in the 50's there were so many costume dramas to excite the imagination. Sailing ships, Viking ships, the Roman galleys in Ben Hur, Bismarck, POW, Hood, Disney's Nautilus, etc......and most of them models. This is what got me interested in what the real ships were like and learning their stories. This just isn't happening today except for a few quirky successes like the morbid love story in Titanic. I suppose we can all help by talking about modeling to people....having club displays if you have a club....you might even be able to display one of your favorite projects at work....It may initiate interest. Anyway, I don't have THE answers, I'll continue to buy stuff, build when I can and follow lists like this one for all the model nut cases like me. Simon Scheuer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: NEVENGER@aol.com Subject: Hobby slowly dying I do not believe the hobby is dying but perhaps we should think of it as changing. We now have the internet, and many people still build from scratch (I been thinking about that). I do not know about others areas but were I live (south Florida) there are tons of big hobby stores. Sadly we we just lost a big one, but from what I understand it was the kids took over for dad's store and poof it was mismanaged. However 3 stores in my area have expanded in the last year. Yes the hobby is competeting against the computer and vedio game, but if we do not show kids the hobby then their interest my never come. Just tonight I sat on the computer letting my kids order some Si Fi Gundam plastic kits over the internet to build. Let me tell you they can not wait and build them because they have seen what the models repersent on their cartoons on TV. If you want to start kids cheap their are also the lindburgh kits. Lets face it I hate the kits too but they are simple, cheap, and in a few hours you have a, um, well, hay the kids like it anyway and if it is not perfect well who cares if the kids like it then its gold for them. RD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Phil M. Gollin" Subject: Heller kits Is there any way of asking/petitioning Heller to re-release the Hood and Victourious kits considering the interest now that the Hood's wreck has been found??? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: ICM HMS Hood I just received this announcement, delivered by October 19th, from the ordering department of Hannants in England concerning the release of the ICM HMS Hood. >> ICM5005 HMS Hood WWII cruiser. From a reliable source who is in a position to know we have been told that this kit will definitely not be released in 2001 and that it is unlikely to be made in 2002 and is more likely to be released in 2003. << Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Tom & Carolyn Harrison" Subject: Toms Arizona set In response to many request to provide our Arizona boat racking details we have just released set 3529. This set is for the Banner/Trumpeter Arizona kits and provides detailing brass for the individual boats as well as all the associated racking for the boat. At this time it is only set available that provides this racking. This set in not for the faint of heart, it is very difficult to assemble but is accurate and looks great when completed. This set cost $14.00 and as usual we will ship free to SMML members. A picture of the brass will be on our site by Monday. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume