Subject: SMML VOL 1396 Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:17:04 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: SC Diorama 2: Re: Short Seamew and other FAA model aircraft 3: Re: HMS Asturias 4: Camouflage Colors 5: Re: HMS Asturias 6: HMS Asturias 7: Re: Sealing Bass Wood 8: Re: Modeling a somewhat accurate 1/48 or 1/72 scale 3"/21 for an S/C 9: HM AMC Asturias 10: Toluol/Heller Hood/Lion Red 11: Naval Camouflage -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: SMML gathering at Telford? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: SC Diorama >> Reportedly she had 5-6 knots advantage over the sub chasers 18 or so knots. Boat was built special for the job. Above waterline she looked like a lobster boat, below waterline she had better lines for speed. << This is somewhat off topic, but we have lobster boat races here in Maine every summer. There are a wide variety of classes based on length, propulsion, whether modified or stock, etc. With the right power, a typical lobster boat can hit high speeds. Most lobster boats have a very fine entrance forward which transitions to an almost flat surface aft. With the right power, they will plane rather easily. For instance, this year I developed a kit of the RED BARON, a Holland 32, for BlueJacket. We chose the BARON because in 2000, she was clocked at 57.3 mph, making her the "World's Fastest Lobster Boat". The BARON is not a specialized racer but is a stock lobster boat hull that lobsters each year. However, for the racing season, they do pull the stock engine and drop in a Ford 605 driving a racing prob through a Vee drive. This year, Glenn Holland decided not to race and his Dad, Corliss, took her lobstering. This year, the "World's Fastest Lobster Boat" was, I think, UNCLE'S UFO, which hit over 59 mph. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: Short Seamew and other FAA model aircraft Kenneth Hagerup wrote that: >> Sword make an injection molded 1/72 Short Seamew. << Unless I am really mistaken, the Sword model is for a Curtiss SO3C-1, which is nothing like a the really ugly Short anti-submarine aircraft. The Sword model of the Curtiss Seamew can be seen at: http://www.hannants.co.uk/cgi-bin/search.pl?Mode=view&Database=cat&R=SWO7203 while a Short Seamew can be seen at: http://www.gsansom.demon.co.uk/vfaero/oneoff/seamew1.jpg, and at: http://www.gsansom.demon.co.uk/vfaero/oneoff/seamew2.jpg. The Short SB.6 Seamew was a remarkable aircraft designed to a naval specification but also intended for land-based use by the RAF. The type was intended to be a robust and simple anti-submarine aircraft for use on small carriers, with a crew of two, good range and capable of carrying and operating the latest radars. The Mamba ASM.6 turboprop was able to run on virtually any fuel and the tailwheel undercarriage was fixed. After a number of development machines was built and tested - stated to be up to ten flown - the Seamew was scrapped in 1957. The Seamew AS Mark 1 was the intended naval version with arrester and catapult hooks and manual wing-folding. It could carry up to 1,100lbs of munitions. The prototype, XA209, first flew on 13 August 1953 and at least four were built and flown; it served only with ATDU and 700 NAS. The MR Mark 2 was similar in every respect to the AS Mk 1 except that it was optimised for land-based use from hastily prepared airstrips. It thus had oversize tyres and was slightly heavier than the naval version; although naval equipment was deleted it was cleared to carry a higher weapons load. Two were built including XA213 but it was not put into service before being cancelled. Magna Models of England makes a 1/72 resin and white metal model of the Short Seamew, for 15.28 (Sterling, for about $22.95). This same company is planning on relesing a 1/48 scale resin and white metal Fairey Firbrand TF.2 torpedo-bomber kit soon, and this will go along with their TF.5 model at 32.30 (Slerling, about $48.45). In 1/72 scale, Magna make these other FAA kits and conversions, all beautiful and equally expensive. There are hypertext links for those of you who wish to see how really ugly aircraft that the FAA seemed to buy for themselves. Blackburn B48 Firecrest http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rod_bearden/Firecres.JPG Blackburn Firebrand Mk.I/TF II http://www.aircraftscalemodeling.com/images/Workbench/DSCN9510.JPG Blackburn Skua with correct wings, tailplanes, canopy etc for the Frog, Novo, Revell kit http://british-forces.com/rtw/fleet_air_arm/aircraft/blackburnskua.html De Havilland Dove/Devon http://www.chariot.net.au/~theburfs/dovepage1.html De Havilland Sea Vixen FAW 1 and FAW 2 Douglas Skyraider AEW 1 conversion Fairey Barracuda Mk.V Fairey Firebrand TF III/TF IV Fairey Firefly TF.5, U8 Drone target Fairey Gannet AEW 3 Fairey Spearfish http://www.faasig.org/photos/Blackburn-S28-43.jpg Grumman Avenger, Royal Navy, Post War, AS4/5/6/TS5/ECM6 Hunting Percival Sea Prince T Mk.1 with optional noses and interior detail http://www.torontoaerospacemuseum.com/projects/seaprince/content.html Short Sturgeon PR 1 prototype, TT 2/TT 3, SB 3 http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rod_bearden/Stur.gif, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rod_bearden/Sturg2.jpg http://www.geocities.com/Aviator_mlt3/sturgeon.jpg Supermarine Attacker Westland Wyvern T 3 trainer conversion for the Frog kit http://www.aircraftscalemodeling.com/images/Eglen%20Models/Wyvern_Model.gif Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: Re: HMS Asturias Roy Details of HMS Asturias as contained in 'British and Empire Warships of the Second World War' by H T Lenton: Built by Harland & Wolff, launched 7.7.25, requisitioned 26.8.39, commissioned 28.9.39 as F71. Torpedoed Italian submarine Cagni off West Africa, 25.7.43. Laid up at Freetown. 22,048 tons gross; 640.5ft pp; 78.5ft beam. 3 x water tube boilers (450psi); 2 x shafts; Parsons SR geared turbines, 22000shp = 19 knots. 8 x single 6"; 2 x single 12pdr AA; 3 x twin 0.5" AA guns Regards Les Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "wblad" Subject: Camouflage Colors Hi Lars, According to Norman Friedman's "US Battleships: An Illustrated Design History" the colors for Norfolk Design No. 3 are: No.1 Pure White, No. 3 Standard Light Gray, and No. 5 Black; Norfolk Desgn No. 4 are: No. 1 Pure White, No. 2 Very Light Gray, No. 3 Standard Light Gray, No. 4 Very Dark Gray, and No. 5 Pure Black; Norfolk Design No. 5 is an interesting variation on Design No. 3. Using a similar pattern, it had No. 3 Green and No. 4 Red instead of No. 5 Black. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: HMS Asturias Asturias was built by Harland & Wolff, Belfast completing in 1926 for Royal Mail Lines. She was a motorship and one of a pair, the other being Alcantara, and was placed on the owner's service to the East Coast of South America. At the time of completion she measured 22,071 GRT, 656 X 78.4 ft and her diesel engines generated 15,000 shp for a service speed of 16 knots and 17 knots maximum. She carried 410 1st Class passengers, 232 2nd Class, and 768 3rd Class. Crew 440. In 1934 she was returned to her builders for rebuilding. Her original two short funnels were replaced by two taller; her forepart was lengthened by 10 ft, and her engines replaced by 20,000 shp geared turbines increasing her speed by one knot. Her GRT became 22,048. Her passenger complement was reduced to 330 1st, 220 2nd and 768 3rd. In Sep 1939 she and her sister were taken over for service as armed merchant cruisers. The forefunnels, dummies, were removed and the ships were equipped with eight 6 in and two 3 in guns. Catapults were fitted in 1941 (location ?). On July 25th, 1943 Asturias was torpedoed by the Italian submarine Cagni in the South Atlantic and badly damaged. She was towed to Freetown and later laid up. She was written off as a total loss but was then bought by the British Admiralty in Feb 1945, repaired at Belfast, and fitted out as a troop transport. She still had only the one funnel and the mainmast was also deleted. She did not enter service as a troop transport until 1947 by which time her GRT had become 22,445. She was managed for the Ministry of Transport by her original owners, Royal Mail Lines. She was employed in the emigrant service in 1949 and reverted to trooping again in 1953. She was sold for scrap in 1957. Sources: Kludas, "Great Passenger Ships of the World" Vol 3; Smith, "Passenger Ships of the World"; Talbot-Booth "Merchant Ships 1942"; and Conway's "All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946". Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: nd.ward@virgin.net Subject: HMS Asturias HMS Asturias ( pennant no F 71) was comissioned in October 1939 as an AMC, she was built in 1925, grt 22048t. She was armed with 8 x 6in. and 2 x 3in AA guns. My last ref says, laid up, damaged april 1944. Dave Ward -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Sealing Bass Wood After studying the drawings of the amphibious assault version of the hybridized New Jersey, it has become obvious that I'm going to have rebuild the superstructure from the deck up. This is going to involve cutting Bass Wood for the main superstructure. While I'm producing the drawings for the model, can someone give me some advice on the best way to seal Bass Wood? Steve Wiper advised using super glue, which works well, but gets messy if you do a lot of it. Building the entire superstructure is going to require a fair amount of cutting Bass Wood, so if anyone else has a less messy way to cat the parts, let me know. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. Convention Chairman 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention OKC in 2003! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: Modeling a somewhat accurate 1/48 or 1/72 scale 3"/21 for an S/C Victor M. Baca, a fellow SMML reader and editor of the PHOTOMARINE ARCHIVES of Model Ship Journal, P.O. Box 28516, Bellingham, WA 98228-0516; wrote to me about my discussion thread about "Modeling a somewhat accurate 1/48 or 1/72 scale 3"/21 for an S/C". Mr. Baca kindly supplied me a copy of the 3"/23 Poole gun that appeared in the August 2000 issue of his ship modeling journal. What follows is a further discussion about what is required to attempt to have accurate armament on a scale warship. The kindly supplied plans provided by Mr. Baca were of such detail that I then ordered the above mentioned photovopied volume for the stated $9.95 that includes postage. These plans of the 3"/21, or 3"/23 as some have recorded this weapon, will allow me to attempt a larger scale model of this weapon that will actually have a working elevation gear system. Some may consider such detail as being anal on my part, but such is modeling to some of us. My examination of the old ITC/Ringo/Glencoe example of this weapon shows exactly what my first comments were about modeling a fitting scale example of this weapon. The search for truly detailed plans for equipment and weapons elevate a model from the toy example to an appropriate representation of a real weapon of war. My original statements of kitbashing such a weapon in 1/48 scale still apply for a generic weapon, but a real set of plans allows a real gem of a model to be built. In short, whether you obtain equipment or weapon plans from Floating Drydock, John Lambert, or as in this case from Mr. Baca at Model Ship Journal, no amount of photoetched sheeting can detail a plastic or resin example of a bar of Ivory Soap, it may float but it is still soap. Detail still matters. Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Roland Mar Subject: HM AMC Asturias The best I can come up with is as follows. Built 1925, 22048 gross tons, commissioned October 1939, Pennant # F.71 carried 8- 6" (8 x 1) and 2-3" AA ( 2 x 1). Laid up damaged April 1944. I have nothing immediately available as to ship dimensions. or wartime career. I also have nothing about her FAA component. A quick search of what I have to hand shows no passenger liner of that name. Was she originally named Asturias? I did come up with a picture from an RN site: http://british-forces.com/rtw/ships/auxww2/amcs/WWII_AMC_Asturias_in-1922.jpg I do note a discrepancy between the picture claimiing to be from 1922 and my other sources saying she was built in 1925. I cannot judge which is right. I have found there was also a British troopship Asturias. Maybe you or someone with contact with the RN can trace her by her pennant number and dates. I hope this helps. Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Martin Short" Subject: Toluol/Heller Hood/Lion Red Dear All, Just catching up on things..forgive me if some of this is 'stale news'.. Ralph, With regards to enquiry about Toluol (also Toluene/Methyl Benzene), I doubt you will be able to buy this chemical over the counter, even in the US, and almost likely nothing under 4 - 5 gals .Your best bet is probably to get friendly with someone who works for an adhesive or paint company, or has dealings with these materials. Quite often one of the solvents sold as a cleaner for adhesives is straight toluene ( we do it).. you just need to identify the product. I use Toluene myself, but usually blend with ethyl acetate or MEK in vary %'s depending upon how fast I want it to set. Heller Hood, As the owner of one of these kits, it looks like the Hood.. from a distance.. but needs more than a fair bit of work..(eg: construct new main turrets/armament), and is very basic compared to their issues of French ships.the Richlieu is a nice kit by comparison. The basis is there however and I'll give it a go one day..I have more worthwhile better projects for my limited time. Somebody please correct me.. but I believe it was only ever released once?, and Heller copped so much flak over it... the kit has never been seen since? If Humbrol were to release her again, then hopefully someone would at least be prepared to make resin replacement turrets. There wouldn't be enough kits left in circulation to make it worth while at the moment. If the Konig and Grosser Kurfurst are anything to go by, the ICM Hood should be worth the wait... right Frank? Lion Red, Steve, Lion Red in 'can' form is popularly knon as a "Fire Engine" in this part of the world... just thought you'd like to know.. cheers, Martin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Chris & Lulu Langtree" Subject: Naval Camouflage Hi All The book itself is a large hardback of 247 pages with the dustcover showing a colour photo of Gloire on it. This photo is reproduced in the excellent colour section inside the book. Conceptually this is a different approach to the Alan Raven series. Whilst Raven focuses on British naval camouflage and attempts to illustrate and identify as many camouflage schemes for individual ships as possible, Williams adopts a broader approach and concentrates on the development and camouflage patterns themselves. That being said the book is lavishly illustrated - a lot of the photos will be familiar but all are interesting and are well chosen, the aim being to illustrate the book's themes. One note there are two unidentified ships shown, the C class cruiser on Page 106 is Carlisle herself and the funnel shown on Page 247 is Renown's fore funnel. The colour section is excellent and I particularly enjoyed the photo of Olympic in dazzle. Turning now to the text, this starts with an introduction to Naval Camouflage and is an informative and interesting account of the development of Naval Camouflage from 1914 to 1945 focusing on the US and UK. Whilst significant amounts of material for these countries have been lost, more still survives than the other combatants. Next is a history of camouflage in WW1 and this is really fascinating. Both British and American developments being discussed in some detail with the American experiments at the Kodak company being particularly well covered. What emerges from this discussion is the more advanced nature of the American research when compared to the British. Following an introduction each type of camouflage scheme is treated separately and where possible there are photos or drawings of the scheme. If, for example, a scheme was quite extensive such as the Admiralty dazzle scheme there are several photos showing the different schemes that were applied. After this start the book moves onto the second world war and here there is a weakness. Very little information survives on the early schemes used by the Royal Navy between the wars and early in WW2 but Williams only mentions Grenade and Grenville being camouflaged after the war started. There is evidence that some limited research was carried out by the Admiralty between 1919 and 1937 which resulted in certain conclusions being reached about which schemes to use on different stations. Very soon after the war started several camouflage experiments were conducted and it is likely that the first warship to wear camouflage was in fact Ivanhoe. Each camouflage variant is covered in some detail but the sections for Mountbatten Pink and the Special Home Fleet Destroyer Scheme are incomplete. The Mountbatten Pink section does not include cruisers in its list of types of ships to receive it though CAFOs do list several. However, it is likely that the only ship of the 5th Flotilla to receive Mountbatten Pink (if at all) was the Kelly. Despite the letter from Mountbatten included in the text there is anecdotal evidence that none of his captains would have followed that particular idea. The story that the rest of the 5th was decked out in Mountbatten Pink seems to have originated with Mountbatten himself and is probably due to faulty memory. For the Special Home Fleet Destroyer Scheme there were more than one variant and the interested researcher should consult Alan Raven's Royal Navy Camouflage Volume 2 which has a good selection of the variants. Such variants included using G45 in place of white. Quibbles aside the author handles his material with a confidence and sureness which is most impressive. There is very little on the Mediterranean though and it seems that MFO 433/34 which gives instructions for Mediterranean Fleet camouflage has been missed. Even so he produces a most illuminating account of Royal Navy camouflage and the reasons why schemes were adopted and discarded. Moving onto the USN, he seems if anything better. Each measure is described individually with clearly illustrative photos. Where appropriate seperate sections are included, for example between the descriptions of Measures 14 and 15 there is a useful discussion of Disruption and Dazzle Designs. Like the Admiralty schemes the author lists the designs employed for each ship particularly for Measures 31 to 33 but also notes the variations and inconsistencies in their application. He even includes information on Measures 15 and 17 whilst noting the difficulties with these two schemes. Measure 12 modified is particularly well handled with an extensive section of different schemes illustrated. After the USN, Williams moves onto Allied, German, Japanese and Italian camouflage. Once again his touch is sure but he does not present as much material. This is probably because it no longer survives and Williams has probably managed to extract what is available and verifiable. There are significant gaps in the record for Royal Navy camouflage so it is hardly surprising that there is even less for the Axis fleets. Once again photos are good, including several I was unfamiliar with but I particularly liked the extreme dazzle Sperrbrechers he reproduces with sequences showing both sides. The final section comprises several essays which are once again informative and detailed. A bonus in 3c is the list of WW2 Admiralty paints with Humbrol equivalents. As he has relied on a Humbrol shade card there are one or two questionable decisions here and the Dimi Apostopoulis list is to my mind more accurate. This is pretty academic though as paint mixing was not a precise art, something the author is aware of and takes the trouble to point out. I also noticed that MS4A was listed as having a reflection factor of 45% whereas it was a significantly lighter paint and should be shown as 55%. The author had missed the re-numbering of the earlier scheme though, G5 being originally MS1 and G10 being MS2 and of the Blue colours B5 becoming B30 and so on. To confuse things further in a later renumbering G10 was equivalent to AP507A. Furthermore 507C survived firstly as B45 and then as G45 and AFO2106/43 states that G45 was 507C and not a new shade as some comentators think. Even so there is much useful information here, for example I learnt that B20 was a combination of B15 and B30 - like 507B being a combination of 507A and 507C. Disappointingly there is no attempt to arrive at Humbrol equivalents for the USN colours though. A glance at the Bibliography shows a reassuring level of research and use of original sources which ties in with the overall high quality of the work. This book is not cheap, at 40 pounds it is one of the more expensive books around but it is fully worth the cost. It is solidly researched and is probably the only full history of naval camouflage we are likely to see. Re-assuringly the quality is excellent, Chatham have not skimped on production and the photos are excellently reproduced. Furthermore, the author has inlcuded many camouflaged liners and transports many of whose schemes are even more interesting than the warships. Submarines and coastal forces also receive some coverage. The author has covered a difficult subject and done so with authority and considerable knowledge. The layout is clear and informative and David Williams has the gift of making a dry subject interesting creating what is without doubt the definitive work on the subject. This is an excellent book and I would say that everyone with an interest in naval camouflage should have a copy on their shelves. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Erwin Van Deynze Subject: SMML gathering at Telford? Hi, gang Just to find out if there's anything planned in the way of a SMML-meeting/get-together at the IPMS UK Nationals at Telford next weekend? I guess there wil be a lot of us present there, so why not have a nice get-together? I will be visiting both days Erwin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume