Subject: SMML VOL 1397 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:56:39 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Paging Russ Smith of the Graf Zeppelin Air Wing Group 2: Re: 3"/23 Poole gun 3: Re: Sealing Bass Wood 4: Re: Modeling a somewhat accurate 1/48 or 1/72 scale 3"/21 for an S/C 5: Sealing Basswood 6: Sealing Basswood 7: Re: Short Seamew 8: Re: Sealing Bass 9: Toluol 10: Re: Asturias 11: Kursk sub news 12: Re: sealing basswood 13: sealing Bass wood 14: USS Arizona 15: Memo to Rusty White 16: In Russia, Mourning for Lost Sub Is Muted 17: Sealing basswood 18: Model Display 19: Sealing Bass Wood 20: HMS Condor 21: The 3" Poole Gun On WWI Subchasers 22: Re: Sealing Bass Wood 23: Re: Canadian Tribals -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: Wait there's more 2: SMML-meet at Telford -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Peter K. H. Mispelkamp Subject: Paging Russ Smith of the Graf Zeppelin Air Wing Group Russ: I am getting your emails, but everyone I have sent to you in the past month has bounced back to me - either in new message format or reply format. Please confirm that your address is the same and verify your server's ability to retrieve my emails. Yes, I have received some - but not all- of our Aircraft and am trying to decide who should theirs first. Thanks Peter K. H. Mispelkamp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: 3"/23 Poole gun To Harold Stockton and others interested in the 3"/23 Poole gun. Bluejacket, of Maine carries a metal casting of a 3"/23 Poole gun, item #69 ($ 1.75) for 1/8" scale and # 754 ( $ 3.30) for 1/4" scale, on page 16 of their current catalogue ( both plus postage). It seems to be a carry-over from the days when they sold a 1:48 110 Ft WW 1 Subchaser kit. It is not the exquisite detailed unit most precise modelers would like ( I had to improve it with a couple of model railroad brake handwheels for the elevating and azimuth handwheels, etc.), but with some re-working it can be acceptable for the less-than-super pro modeler. "Different strokes for different folks." Having said that, I may yet scratch-build one from the drawings Harold mentions, but not until the model is finished and a case built. This is the model SMML people may recognize as the one I began in 1934, and needs only the lifelines and the through-the-hull fittings installed to make it complete. Being in the third year of my ninth decade (go figure, carefully) I better not delay it any longer. Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: Sealing Bass Wood >> Building the entire superstructure is going to require a fair amount of cutting Bass Wood, so if anyone else has a less messy way to cat the parts, let me know. << Basswood can be sealed in a number of ways, including cladding with sheet styrene. I use the latter approach on structures without compound curves and it works well, especially if you are drilling out the air ports. As a rule, I use .020" styrene for most applications, attached with medium viscosity CA glue. Lacquer-based automotive primer/surfacer does a wonderful job of sealing the wood and filling in any grain. I normally buy it in quart cans (very thick) and thin it at least 50% for the first coat and 25-50% for the finish coats. It dries within 15 minutes or so, is very hard, and sands well. Usually, a base coat and one or two top coats results in a very smooth surface. You can also use a lacquer-based automotive spot putty like Nitro-Stan to fill deeper grain and scratches. Nitro-Stan can be thinned with lacquer thinner and brushed on the wood just like a normal primer, too. In fact, if you're using the small tubes of "white" or "green" putty from the hobby shops, you might want to consider buying Nitro-Stan or similar automotive spot putties at your local automotive parts store. These putties come in 16 oz tubes and generally cost between $6 and $10. Properly capped, they'll last for years. And, when you consider that the hobby shop putties come in 2.5 oz tubes and generally cost about $5, well.... Plain old sanding sealer also works well on basswood. I use the solvent-based variety, thin it about 50% for the base coat and usually rub it on. Once it dries, I sand it with 220 or 320 grit, apply an unthinned coat, and sand that with 400 grit. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: Modeling a somewhat accurate 1/48 or 1/72 scale 3"/21 for an S/C As there may be at least one other reader out there who is still interested in this thread on the modeling of the 3"/21, /23, Poole Engineering and Machine Co.'s often referred to "horrid" weapon, which is even more "horridly" modeled in the 1/72 subchaser kit, let us examine a few facts about what is indeed "horrid" in the first case. There is no question that the kit's purported weapon looks anything remotely like the real article, even to its interesting but useless base mounting. But to the comments about to the real weapons usefulness in service use, there is little reliable information that can be found to ascribe any real proof of the weapon's lack of real worthiness. There is an interesting Federal case that is cited about Poole Engineering & Machine Company v. United States, 57 Ct.Cl. 232, 234 (1922). It was exactly during this period of time that the United States government was attempting to force arms manufacturers like Poole and Electric Boats to make good on an implied warranty of usefulness after the contractor's warranty had expired. In short, almost all defense industry contractors were selling this government as worthless military equipment as what Lincoln then refered to as "shoddy workmanship" (the soles of the boots for the Union Army were coming off before the troop trains crossed the Potomac). Poole seems to have won the case on technical and legal grounds only, but did not survive without the forthcoming Depression of 1929. Some use was made for the service rounds for this weapon by the (Dahlgren) Naval Proving Ground on March 1942. The USN borrowed from the U.S. Army Proving Ground its 12-inch Railway Mount (Model of 1918, Serial no. 9) for use as a bomb test gun. The gun itself was a French 12"/35 Model 1895 built by the Watervliet Arsenal, serial no. 19., built on a rail carriage designed by the Marion Steam Shovel Company, of the Panama Canal and the Saturn V rocket transporter fame. The first firing at the Naval Proving Ground took place on March 13. 1942 with Army 500-pound semi-armor piercing (SAP) bombs T-4 being shot against 1.9"-to-2" STS (Special Treatment Steel) plates. Later tests were done using the ANM58A1 SAP bombs. The powder employed was SPDN 2721, a 3"/23 Poole gun granulation. Charge, weights being 12.5 pounds to 18 pounds, velocities 640 to 800 F.P.S. Between July 15th, 1942 and June 4, 1946 armor piercing bombs weighing 1,000 pounds - Bethlehem Steel MK 33, MOD 1, Crucible Steel MK 33 MOD 2 and Midvale Steel MK 33 MOD 3 were firedagainst armour plate in lot acceptance testing of bombs and ballistic limit determination of the plates. Among the 151 firings were shots against Camegie9.5" and Bethlehem Steel 9.4" Class "B" armour gratings, 6" Class "B" gratings by Midvale Steel and 3.4" to 3.75 " Class "B" deck armour by Camegie. The powder employed was 3"/23 SPDN 2721 and IHPA-30 as well as 5"/25 SPD 2699, SPDN 4438 and SPDN 4734. A nominal 64-pound charge weight for the later powder yielded about 1, 140 F.P.S. The point to all of this discussion about detailing models has a real life lesson to be learned. While Poole Engineering & Machine Company was fighting the US government about warranties and serviceability issues in court, the above mentioned Marion Steam Shovel Company deliveered a good quality product and has stayed in business since 1884. If quality and hard work make for success in real life, could we take the same lessons into the world of modeling? Just a thought. Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: aandmblevins@att.net Subject: Sealing Basswood Hello Rusty, I have had good results in sealing basswood using a 50/50 mixture of a good grade of shellac and denatured alcohol. Two coats with a light sanding after each produces a smooth surface. The mixture dries quit quickly which is another advantage. Al Blevins -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Joel Labow Subject: Sealing Basswood I have used Floquil Glaze for years with good results. You will need to allow lots of time (5-7 days) for it to dry, though. Two coats with sanding with 400 grit in between should do the trick. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Hank Lapa" Subject: Re: Short Seamew As well as the Contrail kit, which includes injected, metal and decals, there is an all-resin kit from Magna Models. I'm sure it can be found at www.hannants.co.uk if you do a bit of searching. Both kits might be in fact available. I have the Contrail kit personally, and see no need to go after a resin replacement. Regards, Hank -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Sealing Bass >> After studying the drawings of the amphibious assault version of the hybridized New Jersey, it has become obvious that I'm going to have rebuild the superstructure from the deck up. This is going to involve cutting Bass Wood for the main superstructure. While I'm producing the drawings for the model, can someone give me some advice on the best way to seal Bass Wood? Steve Wiper advised using super glue, which works well, but gets messy if you do a lot of it. Building the entire superstructure is going to require a fair amount of cutting Bass Wood, so if anyone else has a less messy way to cat the parts, let me know. << Borrow a page from cabinetmakers. Try several coats of a spit coat of shellac: try thinning store bought shellac about 2:1 with alcohol which will give you a 2-1/2 lbs cut. Several coats with sanding in between should suffice. However that said, while cheap and easy to work, why Bass?? There are plastic products like Renshape, a resin material that are as easy to work, are extremely fine grained compared to wood, are harder and have better detail holding capabilities. Renshape from Ciba-Gigy is one such, several other similar materials have been discussed here and on SteelNavy. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Erhardtsen" Subject: Toluol >> Where do you get Toluol to use as glue and how much does it cost? << Here in Denmark I do buy it in normal paint-shops at a price of 3-4 $ for ½ a liter - That will do for 100 to 200 ships. Erik Erhardtsen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Asturias The picture accompanying Roland Mar's response to the query on Asturias appears to have been of the Asturias of 1908. Her name was changed to Arcadian in 1923 and she was scrapped in 1933. The picture would appear to have been taken on the Tyne judging by the rather unique cranes in the background which were a prominent feature of Palmer's shipbuilding yard until they were dismantled in 1934. So, yes, the caption to the photo is incorrect; she is not the WW 2 AMC of that name although the picture could well be one taken of the earlier ship in 1922. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Kursk sub news http://news.independent.co.uk/world/russia/story.jsp?story=101879 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Ken Goldman" Subject: Re: sealing basswood Hi Rusty, Using superglue to seal any kind of wood is flat out too messy even though it will work. Use lacquer or shellac. To properly seal wood you should thin either by about half to eliminate obvious thick spots. Either one will dry quickly. Then just apply as many coats as look good. The problem is that you will have to sand lightly between coats, so do this before you attach the basswood structure and make this more difficult. None of the three materials (superglue, lacquer, shellac), however, will fill the grain in one or two coats. The gradual build up of several coats with sanding in between will pretty much accomplish that, but it is tedious. Better would be to seal the wood with two coats, then paint it with something like Mr. Surfacer to fill the pores. If there is no fine detail to worry about, you can achieve a flat, unblemished surface by spraying the thing with any sandable primer. This will take longer, though, since to achieve the best results the paint must be so dry that you can't detect an odor when you put your nose right against the parts. Wet sanding is recommended if you go that route. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER unique wood sculpture and fine scale models www.walruscarpenter.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: sealing Bass wood Rusty: I use automotive glazing putty. It is similar to the Squadron putty that plastic modelers use. I use it on plastic too for filling seams. It is thinner than the Squadron stuff so it gets into the surface of the Bass Wood very well and with a slight sanding produces a very smooth surface. Take care, Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Pacific NW Aerospace Subject: USS Arizona Hello, I am building a 1/429 scale USS Arizona based upon the classic Revell kit and need some hints/tips on detailing out the model and what techniques one might use for the decking? This will lead to one of the 1/350 scale Banner Kits after successful completion of this project. Timeframe is to be the morning of Dec 7th.... Thanks in advance... Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Chris Christenson" Subject: Memo to Rusty White Sorry to use this list for this but I remember last year..... HEY RUSTY!!!! I WUZ THERE!!!! NU 20 OU 10 YESSSSSSSSS!!!!! Chris Christenson NU Class of '84 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: In Russia, Mourning for Lost Sub Is Muted http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/28/international/europe/28KURS.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Sealing basswood >> can someone give me some advice on the best way to seal Bass Wood? Steve Wiper advised using super glue, which works well, but gets messy if you do a lot of it. Building the entire superstructure is going to require a fair amount of cutting Bass Wood, so if anyone else has a less messy way to cat the parts, let me know. << This one's easy, Rusty. If you like Floquil products you can brush on their amber-colored "Glaze" or transparent "Crystal Coat". Otherwise just use any inexpensive sanding sealer available at your local hardware store. I used both Glaze and Crystal Coat on my model of KIDD. Using foam sanding blocks (available in the nail care section of your local pharmacy) in increasing grades of fineness, I sanded each of the four coats of sealer I gave the hull. This produced a finish like glass and one which took airbrushed paint just like polystyrene. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Member, Nautical Research Guild Tin Can Sailors IPMS/USA #3345 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Shipguy59@aol.com Subject: Model Display Hi folks, I'm seaching for an affordable way to display my ship models. I build 1/350 and 1/600 ships so I need a fair amount of space. Here's the problem, I've got a very limited budget for this project, not a lot of space to add furniture and my wife would like whatever I decide on to "look nice." Any thoughts? What does everyone else use to display your finished work? Mark from Boston (Who still can't bring himself to root for the Yankees) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Sealing Bass Wood >> can someone give me some advice on the best way to seal Bass Wood? << Hi Rusty: I'm using basswood extensively on my current model and find the best sealer is cyano. I apply it with a gloved fingertip. It tends to load up fast and harden on a brush, but you might try thinning the cyano with acetone for easier brush application. Another nifty solution is to mix up some white fiberglass finishing gel coat. It's a thick pigmented resin that you catalyze with standard resin catalyst (MEK). If you use the finish type of gel coat that has liquid wax added to it, you'll end up with a slick, hard coating that's easily sanded and fills grain nicely. Because you're only using it as a sealer, there's no need to use fiberglass cloth if the model is for display purposes. On thick structures like my model's kingpost mast and net handling A-Frame, basswood sheathed in .010" thick Evergreen styrene sheet gives a clean, professional finish I just make sure to allow for the thickness when measuring the wood so everything comes up to scale when sheathing is complete. Again, I use cyanoacrylate to make the sheet plastic adhere to the wood. One thing I've found when cutting thin basswood sheet is to go slow on the power scroll saw's fine tooth blade. Too high a speed seems to make the wood tear a rough edge on the underside. I havent tried coating the basswood sheet first with cyano before making the cut. That might help in fuzzy cuts, but the heat may raise those choking fumes as well. Have a good one, Victor Baca -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: varaville Subject: HMS Condor Please help with project research. Does the famous painting: 'HMS Condor at he Bombardment of Alexandria', which you can view at: http://www.btinternet.com/~philipr/Battwars.htm depict the same HMS Condor that was lost with all hands in December of 1901 off the coast of Vancouver Island? Cheers John Ducker Victoria BC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: The 3" Poole Gun On WWI Subchasers >> Mr. Baca kindly supplied me a copy of the 3"/23 Poole gun that appeared in the August 2000 issue of his ship modeling journal. << Hi All: Thank you Harold for your kind comments. The plans mentioned were originally supplied through the kindness of another long-time SMMLie who heard about our subchaser features in the magazine and I am very grateful for his generous assistance (I won't mention his name so, hopefully, he will not be inundated with e-mail!). If anyone needs these drawings for ship modeling (scanned, sharpened and cleaned up digitally by MSJ), I will gladly send you a gratis jpeg copy showing the 3" Poole, MK XIV, Mod.2 gun via e-mail attachment to assist your modeling efforts. Screen detail is very good and should print out fine if you need a hardcopy. The e-mail copy is done at a screen resolution of 96 dpi and compressed from there as a jpeg (the original file is quite large, you could make and drink a pot of coffee while it slowly loads and clogs your e-mail!). BTW, does anyone know if these guns were used on USCG cutters of the era? Have a good one, Victor Baca Model Ship Journal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Sealing Bass Wood Rusty White writes: >> Building the entire superstructure is going to require a fair amount of cutting Bass Wood, so if anyone else has a less messy way to coat the parts, let me know. << You could clad at the basswood with thin styrene, but that brings up the question, why use basswood at all? I would use sheet plastic where appropriate, and chunks of plexiglass for the parts requiring extensive shaping, such as the conning tower. A bit more work to shape - not a lot, but a bit - and when done, the parts are ready to accept paint. Pleixglass can be shaped with wood tools, but use care not to overheat the plastic and cause surface crazing, which can be detected though paint. Good luck! Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto Maritime Photography www.warshipphotos.com Now taking credit cards via Paypal! Warship Models Underway www.warshipmodelsunderway.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Darren Subject: Re: Canadian Tribals I have sent 2 colour pics of Canadians Tribals in the all grey scheme to be posted onto the SMML site, Take a look and decide for yourself. I think they are too light to be the current Canadian colour, but even though pictures never lie, they don't always tell the whole truth. Darren -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mistress Lorna Subject: Wait there's more More SMML Archives!!! More in the walkarounds! HMCS Cayuga and Huron, HMS Edinburgh (Type 42) and Wave Rider added to Misc photos!! Our first Aussie Ship in a walkaround section! Link page updated Did I mention that the site has had an update?? :-) Mistress Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: thorstenwahl@t-online.de (Wahl, ID3) Subject: SMML-meet at Telford Folks, will be there as well (both days) & can be found at either the IPMS(CH) stand or our SIG´s stand (Aerobatic Display Teams, that is ;-) Best & hope to see you there Thors -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume