Subject: SMML VOL 1421 Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 08:17:10 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: USS North Carolina 2: HMS Liverpool 3: Re: USS CAINE 4: Norfolk sights 5: Re: Salisbury and Rangitiki 6: Re: Caine Mutiny 7: Re: HMS Edinburgh 8: LCAC & Aviators 9: ships at Pembrooke dock 10: SBC-4 Helldivers 11: Liverpool etc 12: DD/DE in Caine Mutiny? 13: Re: North Carolina 14: Altmark 15: Graf Zeppelin and Aquilia 16: LCAC Kits 17: USS WISCONSIN/NEW JERSEY 18: Custom made decals 19: Something for FREE 20: Re: LCAC model kit 21: Re: RN colours for Capital Ships in the 1950's 22: USS North Carolina hull restoration 23: The SB2C series -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: "Ile de France" 2: Warship Books announcement -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Subject: USS North Carolina hello all.... Kenneth Perry wrote: >> You better call them before driving down to Wilmington, the local news here in Carolina tells us they are going to be towing the USS North Carolina up to the shipyard in Norfolk for some refurbishing sometime in the near future. They say this will take several years to do. Can you believe they estimate as many as eight years? << Uh...don't believe everything the local news tells you (I know, 'cos I teach journalism for a living, and much "local news" ain't journalism). Check out: http://www.ncdcr.gov/news/ussnc_7-27-01.htm This is straight from the NC Department of Cultural Resources, which assures us the Showboat will not leave until 2007 or later; will be gone for only 4-5 months; will be towed to Norfolk, Virginia for hull restoration and repairs; and will be brought back to Wilmington permanently. Better still, she'll be put into a much better berth and won't sit on the bottom anymore. Having done Wilmington and Newport News/Norfolk about ten years ago, I can assure you that all the nice things said about these locales are true. The North Carolina is perhaps the best maintained and presented of any preserved ship I've visited, even more impressive when you consider how long she's been there. And The Mariners' Museum in Newport News is an absolute must, especially if you like fine ship models or if you like merchant ships. (I still get a thrill out of knowing I touched the bell from the Leviathan! Don't tell the conservators.) The book/gift store at the Mariners' Museum is also first-rate, too, and it's entirely possible to leave there many dollars lighter than when you went in.... Anyway, drive to Wilmington with confidence! jodi -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Chris Rogers Subject: HMS Liverpool I would just like an explanation on your Statement to be fair the fittings are supplied with a working model in mind can you please elaborate on this thanks Chris Rogers Oz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Bob Evans Subject: Re: USS CAINE >> Although fictional, the USS Caine was actually a DMS, a converted WW1 4-piper flush decker, one funnel removed, to a high speed minesweeper. << Not so in the movie, The ship that was used in the movie was a Benson-Livermore class (DMS-18) High Speed Minesweeper Bob Evans -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: JOHNEME@aol.com Subject: Norfolk sights It has been a few years since I was last in Norfolk, but one of my favorite places to spend the day was the fishing pier on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel. You had to pay the bridge-crossing toll. All ships entering or leaving Norfolk have to pass close to the pier, and in photos, there is no land. It is, or was, a great place for ship lovers. John Emery -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Salisbury and Rangitiki If the date is 1875 Salisbury is probably a sailing vessel. There was a Rangitiki in the fleet of the New Zealand Shipping Co. and completed in 1929, obviously no connection but uses the same word of Maori origin. >> Also, does anyone know what the term 'iron-puddler' means when referring to someone's job in a shipyard? Gad, I hope it's not some unprintable slang term. << An iron-puddler is someone who stirs molten iron to make it more malleable by expelling the carbon. Sounds like an unpleasant job! Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Caine Mutiny >> I don't want to sound nitpicking because like everyone else I enjoy Tony Ireland's tales immensely. However, the fictional USS "Caine" in Herman Wouk's "The Caine Mutiny" is a DMS (destroyer mine sweeper) converted from a flushdeck/four pipe destroyer and not a DE. I can't imagine that there is any subscriber to this list who has not read "The Caine Mutiny" but if there is, beg, borrow or steal a copy as a matter of urgency and enjoy what is one of the finest pices of naval fiction ever written. << Also let's not forget one of the funniest in it's handling of some of the antics on board. Wouk's descriptions of the drills and the tow cable incident, and the dye marker are hysterical!! Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Re: HMS Edinburgh By April 1942 one of the single 20 mm mounts had been removed from the roof of A turret and the remaining one moved to the centre line of same. I believe that two single 20mm were then fitted on the aft deckhouse, making a total of seven single 20mm carried. The 0.5" machine guns were still in place at the time of loss. I hope that this helps you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: LCAC & Aviators James wrote about LCAC pilots being aviators ... >> Navy officers trained to command LCACs are indeed Pilots in the aviation meaning, as they are issued wings! The training syllabus is different, as they don't learn to fly T-2s, A-4s or T-45s, but they do have their own avaitors school according to a History Channel episode of Modern marvels on a few months ago. << Yes indeed they do. Matter of fact my company, Link Simulation - the same people who made the "Blue Box" that trained the World War II era aviators; built the LCAC trainer. The Link LCAC trainer is a full-motion trainer similar to those used to train aircraft pilots. See our link at: http://www.link.com/lcac.html BTW we also build the Navy's T-45 simulators as well as a whole bunch of other aircraft & helicopter simulators. Ed Mansfield, TX Link Simulation & Training -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Mithrand@aol.com Subject: ships at Pembrooke dock hi list trying to find some info on ships that might have been in this area 1942 onwards, but they must be available in 1/700 scale or plans for scratch building. hme Roy allen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Richard Sweeney Subject: SBC-4 Helldivers Hello. Marine Squadron VMO-151 was still flying The SBC-4's operationally out of Samoa until July 1943. Best. Richard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Subject: Liverpool etc Firstly, welcome to our new whiff from Zambia. (A whiff is the start of a smell, depending upon the wind direction)! (Is this why we are known collectively as SMELLIES)? Its nice to hear that you are starting work on a post war large unit. I too think that our 6 inch cruisers were rather elegant. However, as always, there are problems in finding authentic information of the period. I do not doubt that the "As Fitted" general arrangement drawings for HMS Liverpool are available in an archive somewhere, but they will only provide the ship as built. What is required are the copies of G/A's for post war refits, usually major reconstruction of the bridge and major changes in fire control and communications. Again the main armament (triple 6") will not change externally, but the secondary armament, twin 4" Mark 19 now has power operation, and a prominent dividing bulkhead between the two guns. The twin 40 mm Bofors Mark 5 (austerity) mounting are new too. The fact that you wish to build a model that is fully detailed is nice too. (More my scene). Your only answer (in my eyes) is to scratch build. Although I tend to draw only DD size units and below much of the equipment and fittings are common. Have a look at my website www.john-lambert-plans.com particularly my weapons lists. I am constantly updating my lists, and I have much authentic material awaiting the time to redraw. The twin 40mm Bofors Mark V are drawn, but awaiting, in the wings are some bridge fittings, air look-out sights etc, the 27 ft motor whaler and coming soon, the Quad. Pom Pom Mark VII P*. Welcome. Yours "Aye" John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Richard Sweeney Subject: DD/DE in Caine Mutiny? Hello? I have no question that the USS Caine in Herman Wouks book was a converted old four Stacker, might the confusion be over the ship used to represent the Caine in the Movie. Not having seen the movie in a long time it occurs to me that with the film industries propensity for using any ship to represent any ship they want, for instance, using the USS Salem as The Graf Spee in "Persuit of the Graf Spee", using a battleship for the the USS Indianapolis in "Mission of the Shark", not using Flower Class Corvettes in "The Cruel Sea." (Old four Piper huh? My Grandfather served on them in WW I, The USS Wicks was one of his ships, He had also served on the older type, USS Chauncy.) Just a though... Richard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Re: North Carolina Hi SMMLies, I'm wondering how can it take so long as stated to refurbish the North Carolina if she goes to Norfolk. I know her bottom must be in great need of work but most everything else can be done while she's afloat. I spent some time aboard Massachusetts two years ago when she was drydocked. Mamie was out of the water for about 3.5 months and they did an awful lot of work including new plating around her waterline area from the bow to the aft end of turret three. Anyway it cost a lot of money to drydock a ship and all the while the ship is in drydock it takes up the space that could be used for an emergency. For instance: When I worked at Electric Boat in Groton, CT, it would cost the navy $50,000 per day to have a commission sub in drydock not including the work being done. however North Carolina is not in commission but it shouldn't take many years to finish her work. Have I board you enough ?, Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Chris Drage" Subject: Altmark HI All, I have just been privy to the latest master being developed at Skytrex: the Altmark and B***dy good it is too. However, Skytrex need more photos in order to get the superstructure details right (I have furnished them with a drawing or two). Only photos never lie (well almost anyway.....) and provide concrete evidence. If anyone has any photos, drawings, visual info that they can pass on to me to pass to Skytrex they (and I) would be grateful. My next plea is for modellers to go out there and purchase it - once you have seen it and are satisfied with the quality of course. The master thus far is pretty impressive. If this one is a success and sells reasonably well then Skytrex will produce Ohio for which they have a full range of info but are unsure of the market. The writing is on the wall...if we want model ships of all kinds we have to commit ourselves to purchasing them. Only then will developers continue to commission new masters. Who knows I might just be able to do that dio of Cossack boarding the Altmark in the Norwegian fiord after all....... C'mon guys and girls......... Regards Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo kupu kaore e taea te karo (Te reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Bob Zobal Subject: Graf Zeppelin and Aquilia >> Interesting question would be this: if the German carrier would have been made opertional quite a lot of British carrier borne planes would have been made useless immediatelly. Would have British adopted American TBs already than in service (even as a stop-gap) or would they persisted with trying to develop their own designs?? << Dear D.P. The what-ifs are really interesting. In early 1940 the US was exporting all sorts of aircraft to France--Curtis Hawk and Brewster Buffalo fighters, Vindicator torpedo bombers, Boston twin-engined level bombers (can't recall all the US manufacturers off the top of my head, but those are the British names)--because the French aircraft industry couldn't gear up quickly enough. Britain took delivery of many of the aircraft "in the pipeline" after June 1940, but ironically decided not to put a lot of them into front-line service, using them instead as trainers due to the lack of self-sealing fuel tanks, etc. So some American carrier-capable planes were probably already available to the British. On the other hand, the fall of France in June 1940 "changed everything". A recent book by historian Doris Kearns Goodwin on the Roosevelt White House during that period makes clear just how unprepared the American aircraft industry was. There were very few aircraft plants, all using piece-work rather than production line methods, little aluminum production capacity, and limited skilled labor available. It took the better part of a year, and a significant organizational effort, to build the plants, organize them to produce aircraft using Detroit-style automobile manufacturing methods, find and train the labor and provide enough aluminum (including recycling of kitchen implements) to generate quantity production. And the American military was exerting pressure to direct ALL aircraft production toward home defense needs. I really doubt that the British would have been able to procure American carrier aircraft during that critical period in late 1940-early 1941, when Swordfish were carrying out the Taranto raid and the hunt for Bismarck, waiting for the equally obsolescent Fairey Albacore to enter service. Bob Zobal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Joel Labow Subject: LCAC Kits For the R/C aficionado there is a large (~18" x 30") 'stand-off scale' LCAC kit available from Kinetics, Inc. . The model is complete with all hardware and motors and only needs a 2 channel R/C rig and battery packs. I have one and it's lots of fun...and works just as well in the parking lot as on the pond! Joel Labow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: USS WISCONSIN/NEW JERSEY Those interested in the USS WISCONSIN can look into where she's berthed: the Hampton Roads Naval Museum at: http://www.hrnm.navy.mil While you're there, be sure to sign up for your free subscription to "The Daybook", the quarterly journal of the HRNM. It's excellent, and...the price is right. Those interested in the USS NEW JERSEY might want to poke into the Web site for a southern New Jersey Newspaper, the Courier Post, which is publishing a photo album/history of the ship at: http://shop.courierpostonline.com/battleshipbook.html This book will retail for $34.95 US, but prepublication copies are now $24.95. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Member, Nautical Research Guild Tin Can Sailors IPMS/USA #3345 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Custom made decals Hi SMMLies, I just received my custom made decals today and have just now finished my SC-1 Seahawks with the stars and bars. These were made by a man in MI, name : Scott Wright. He did a 1st class job on them. The stars and bars aren't the only thing he made. He did the pre and early war blue circle w/ star and red dot, some with out the dot too. All the squadron numbers and a few other extras I asked for. in 1:192 scale. I had two sheets made, 8.5" X 11". The whole nine yards cost me $79.00 but it was well worth it and the best part is it only took one week from the time I sent him the work till receiving it today. So my point is if you need good quality decals in any size and not much waiting for them give this guy a call. He charges $30 per hour to do custom work and he can also copy existing decals to enlarge, reduce or just keep the same size. I told him I would post his address, he said " please do". Scott Wright Solidesign 8005 Ore Knob Dr. Fenton, MI 48430 www.solidesign.bizland.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: George Colleen Ian Hargreaves Subject: Something for FREE Hi, Getting caught up on a backlog and noticed the comments on HP Models. Some said this and some said that, but... My favourite is WWI British Navy. From HP I have: Inflexible, Birkenhead, Prince Eugene, M-1 Sub, 2 tugs and 4 of the ubiquitous M class destroyers. Guess I have no complaints with HP. I was getting a K class sub and the box arrived in the mail from NNT. When I opened it I found a WWII Soviet K-3 submarine. Well NNT is immediately sending the WWI British K-3 I ordered, no questions asked. When asked if I should return the Soviet K-3, NNT said be happy. Just superior service here - thanks. And so it is Christmas and I have a HP Models 1/700 WWII Soviet K-3 submarine. If you would like it, send me your name up to November 30. On December 1 I will print the names and have the cat choose the lucky owner by a random means. I will then send the Soviet sub to you in the mail for FREE. Cheers, George -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Edd Pflum Subject: Re: LCAC model kit >> The more commercially viable version would be, IMO, a 1/285 scale model. THis is in the armor gaming scale and they are a larger segment than we are. It also allows for a wider variety of loads already on the market. And to really hog wild, make a 1/72 or 1/35 scale version for the real tread heads ... in fact, I am really surprised that one hasn't shown up in the armor diorama categories somewhere! 1/35 would be about 30" long and 16" wide and 8" tall with the skirt inflated. Heck, this would be a nice RC project for somebody. << I have frequently seen an ad for a firm that sells R/C hovercraft (possibly in Marine Modeler, though a scan of recent past issues didn't turn it up.) The models are upper/lower halves of vacuformed plastic, a plastic cloth skirt, and electric motors for propulsion and inflation. They have an LCAC model, but the top is a single, vacuformed piece, i.e. not much detail and what there is is "soft". AFAIR, the models are 2~3' in length. Not a perfect solution, but possibly a starting point. The manufacturer may be called "Kinetics", as this was the manufacturer of a SRN-4 of similar characteristics recently reviewed in the magazine. Edd -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "M & R Brown" Subject: Re: RN colours for Capital Ships in the 1950's Depends on your definition of a capital ship. Vanguard was the only battleship left and appears to always have been 507c with timber decks, dark admiralty grey steel decks and red oxide anti fouling. Carriers would have been the same with probably all DAG decks. Cruisers may have used BS14C39 on some of their steel decks like the destroyers but no one seems to have a decent colour shot. Sometime in the 1950s they changed from 507C to Light Admiralty Grey weatherworks. No one seems to know when but I have seen a 1956 video of the Far East Fleet where the cruiser is definitely 507c. Helped or confused you? Michael Brown Task Force 72 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Liz Brock" Subject: USS North Carolina hull restoration Here's the deal on the NC hull restoration. It won't happen until about 7 or 8 years from now and I think it's going to take less than a year to complete. So feel free to go to Wilmington & tour this magnificient ship. It's well worth your time. Arthur Brock member: Friends of the Battleship North Carolina Association -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: donald p morgan Subject: The SB2C series This was the 3rd or 4th airplane christened "Helldiver" by Curtiss. It also had another name, bestowed upon it by the pilots who had to fly it. It was known as "The Beast"!!! The original spec. called for a dive bomber able to carry a 2,000 lb bomb in an internal bomb bay. Once shed of its bomb load, like most dive bombers, it could turn inside most opposing fighters, and thus had a chance of survival in a dogfight. (The same goes for the SBD which, minus it bombs, could turn inside a Japanese "Zeke"). The SB2C was also a good strafing machine, as most were armed with two forward firing 20 mm cannons. The SB2C never developed the pilot loyalty generated by its predecessor. The SBD had its design roots in an older dive bomber, developed and built by the original Northrop CCo., which ultimately became the El Segundo Div. of Douglas Aircraft Corp. The SB2C was an "off-the-drawing-board" design which was rushed into production before all its "bugs" had been uncovered and eradicated. The original prototype was subject to tail flutter, which led to an in-flight failure in a test dive, claiming the life of a well-known Curtiss test pilot. I believe his name was Lloyd Childs. The problems were eventually eliminated, but the reputation lingered on. This was a big airplane, powered by a 2,000 hp radial engine, and as you can imagine, it had its share of bad habits. One simply didn't gun the engine when undershooting a landing, as the bird would simply respond to the sudden increase in torque by rolling upside down. Not conducive to a long life for a careless pilot. Since standard carrier landing technique called for sudden application of power at the moment the wheels hit the deck (to go around if the hook failed or if it failed to engage the arresting cable) This was dangerous, and probably led to its share of landing accidents. Don Morgan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Graeme Martin Subject: "Ile de France" Hi everybody I am looking to purchase good quality black and white aerial photos of "Ile de France" in her two funnel life from 1949 thru to 1959. I want good reference of funnels, bridge, top decks, boat decks and focsile, also stern cabin structures. Hope somebody can help! Graeme Martin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Keith Butterley Subject: Warship Books announcement Hi all, Now available in the Vanwell section: HMS HOOD Pride of the Royal Navy The sinking of HMS Hood on May 24, 1941 dealt a major blow to the Royal Navy. Like Titanic years before, Hood had seemed invincible and much of the hopes of the Royal Navy rested with her as the nation entered war with Germany. But in just seven minutes, after an encounter with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen, HMS Hood sunk to the bottom of the Atlantic, taking the lives of 1,418 men with her. The author explores the events leading up to the disaster and the legacy it left in its wake. HC 192pp b/w photos 4 maps Canada $42Cdn + shipping US/Intl $26US + shipping PLEASE NOTE: credit card purchase's are now available through paypal.com. Remember: You can sell your used books or extra kits on the site at no cost or obligation, just email me with your ad. Regards Keith Butterley http://www.warshipbooks.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume