Subject: SMML VOL 1423 Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 04:57:34 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: HMS Liverpool 2: Computer failure 3: B-25 colors 4: USS Caine and USS North Carolina 5: Re: USS CAINE 6: Re: HMS Illustrious - 11 Nov, 1940 7: BB NC 8: Re: B-25 Colors 9: B-25 color 10: Helldivers 11: Re: Doolittle's B-25s 12: SBD's/SB2C's outturning Zekes?! 13: Doolittle Raid/USAAC Olive Drab 14: Battleships 15: U-Boat deck gun 16: Seaview re-issue 17: Re: Doolittle's B-25s 18: Shinano's 46cm guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WSW/B-Resina kits from the company formerly known as Rocky Mountain Shipyard 2: WTB: Amati Type VII U-boat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Chris Rogers Subject: HMS Liverpool G/Day Ray I will be honest here and say I dont think there is a difference between static and working I have seen and built ships that any museum would be proud to own and seen static that would look great on the lake as for Sirmar well I have used a few of there componentry items on my type 12 and they look great I must admit that most of it is scratch built but Paul built both directors for me and they are terrific and very accurate I may be wrong here and please correct me if I am your comment seemed to lead into working not being as good as static in quality I ask you to look at last months model boats and a very good friend of mine has his boat in Range finder if you want quality come to Newcastle on the 20-22 jan 2002 the frog pond do have a looksie at what we do for working models and yes if the wire was 003" then it would be on it thats the whole point of modelling isn't it? I think I can ask shane to comment on this one he,s seen the working models and spoke to there owners but Im glad you elaborated and my apologies if I took it the wrong way happy Sailing Chris Rogers TF72 Oz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Dean, Tom" Subject: Computer failure Hi Gang I have asked Shane if he could post this for me. My home computer died on the weekend. It was not a pretty death, lots of sounds and moaning! It was 8yrs old (thats a 1000 in computer years) and will not be replaced in the near future. I converse with a number of you on the list but unfortunately my e-mail list died with the computer. Please scrub my home address of tom.dean@sympatico.ca from your list. I can be reached at work at tgdean@city.hamilton.on.ca Didn't want to lose touch with you all, and my home service will start rejecting in 5days time. I am not at the work address all the time so be patient if you have contacted me there. Thanks to all and to Shane. Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Ralph Nardone" Subject: B-25 colors Hello, all..... >> Anyway, the B-25's for the Doolittle raid. I understand that the drab was more of a brown then green as is the drab today. If so what would be a good solution to what color to make them? << Go to the local hobby shop and look at either the Floquil Military or PollyScale paint racks and find the color labeled "Olive Drab ANA 41" or "Dark Olive Drab ANA 41". AeroMaster also used to make a "toned down" version of the same color in both enamel and acrylic formulas, but since AeroMaster doesn't do paint any more, it may be tough to find. As far as I know, the Floquil and PollyScale colors should still be able to be had...... Cheers! Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Jodie Peeler Subject: USS Caine and USS North Carolina hello all.... Paul Jacobs wrote: >> The ship in the book was definitely a 3 funneled DMS. When the movie was made in the early 1950's, sad to say not one of the old 3-4 pipers still existed. So they used one of the more modern ones still in commission. << As I recall (from a "Time" article on the book and film that was written when the film was being made), the ships used in the film were the USS Doyle (DMS-34) and the USS Thompson (DMS-38). BTW, the USS Richard B. Anderson (DD-786) makes an appearance at the very end, as the new ship Ensign Keith gets assigned to. Kelvin Mok wrote: >> The USS NC was floating high and somehow doesn't quite give the sleek ominous threat a battleship low in the water would. << There's a very good reason why -- she's not floating at all, but rather is sitting on the bottom of her berth. It's sadly quite common for museum ships to be berthed this way -- they bring the ship in at high tide and flood her tanks with fresh water. The advantages are that you can display the ship with few to no lines holding her to a pier, or that you don't need a pier at all. The disadvantage is that, over time, sitting on the bottom takes its toll on the hull. The USS Yorktown in Charleston, SC is berthed this way, and I'd hate to think what that ship's bottom looks like after 25 years on the bottom of the Cooper River. The good news is, as part of the Showboat's hull repairs and restoration, she will get a new, more traditional berth when she comes back to Wilmington. Because of all the money they'll farm into fixing her hull, they can't plop her back on the bottom, so they will moor her at a more traditional berth and she will float again. jodie (spelt with an "e" on the end, not that OTHER way I accidentally spelt it the other day thanks to a jittery "delete" key) http://www.mindspring.com/~raisingirl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: aandmblevins@att.net Subject: Re: USS CAINE There are a couple of "smallboys" that were preserved from WW II however. The USS Kidd in Baton Rouge, LA and the USS Slater, a destroyer escort in Albany, NY. It would seem that one of the problems in preserving the ships of these classes might be the thinness of the hull plating, I believe about 1/4-inch or so. The Slater was brought back from Greece, where it had served in the Greek Navy for some forty years, by the Destroyer Escort Sailor's Assn. which raised money for the project. The restoration began at the Intrepid Museum in NYC and was completed at Albany. Al Blevins -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Chris Burton Subject: Re: HMS Illustrious - 11 Nov, 1940 >> Think this has been asked before but I can't find it so please humour me. What is the perceived knowledge of this ship's camouflage scheme for the Taronto raid? I have seen one "late 40" photo, starboard side, which appears to show a single colour with limited darker countershading. 507B on 507C? Was the flight deck 507A or would it have been over painted in PB10? << John, This has indeed been asked before - the last go-around was about a year ago, I think, and the discussion continued off-line between myself, Randy Short, Fred Kennamer, Dick Hopper and others. Things are still not entirely clear but, basically, Illustrious was NOT in the two-shade camouflage at the time of the Taranto raid. The ship was painted overall in medium grey, which I think has been confirmed as 507B, with the flight deck in dark grey, which we think was 507A, though without confirmation. Illustrious was repainted in the two-colour camouflage shortly after Taranto - exactly when I do not know - but it would had been in late November or December. I believe Alan Raven identified the colours as 507A and 507C - the discussion last year concluded that there were small variations in the camouflage pattern between port and starboard. Randy Short was drawing up this camouflage plan - perhaps it's done by now? I think the plan in Friedman's book may show the flight deck markings at Taranto but there is a clearer version of them in the 1970s Warship Pictorial on Illustrious. This source has a few problems: some of the photographs are mislabelled and the centrefold shows the flight deck in dark grey-green rather than dark grey but we think its depiction of the flight deck markings is accurate. They were in yellow (appearing in orange in some copies of this book!). The Warship Pictorial also gives paint schemes for the ship's aircraft circa 1940 and later. Chris Burton Toronto, Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Shirley Sachsen Subject: BB NC having just come from the Battleship North Carolina, I second what Jodi had to say on the subject. the ship is in great visual shape. they were busy retarring portions of the decking while I was there and I was very impressed with the attention given the work. also, from a professional point of view I must applaud the museum staff and curators. their archival storage spaces and methods are something to envy. this is one museum that isn't run like a hobby. we didn't have a lot of time to spend aboard, so 'raced' through the lower decks (self-guided) tour, but even so, we spent over an hour running through CIC, the great gun turret, engine room, and living spaces. even though I'm a carrier person, it was very easy to fall in love with this ship. bring lots of film--you'll use it all.... the Cape Fear River where she is berthed has a very swift current. the ship is tucked into a lagoon off the river and at low tide it is very evident that she is not afloat. when it comes time to move her to dry dock, it will be an exercise in excavation--she is several feet embedded in the mud. what I could see of her waterline (and in the mud as she is, at low tide you can get a great view of the armor belt), there wasn't much evidence of weed or other marine growth on the hull. by speculation I attribute this to the river's current and possibly cathodic protection, but I don't know for sure. there's a lot to see in Wilmington besides the ship--over 200 years of real history happened there--and you'll have the town to yourself. even at noon downtown one could drop a bomb on it and not hurt anyone. it was like being in a Twilight Zone episode... I was told it was because I was there in the 'off season', but knowing what the off season looks like in San Francisco, the dearth of people was a bit spooky... s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Hank Lapa" Subject: Re: B-25 Colors There is a color in the Testors ModelMaster line called "Faded Olive Drab." This is the color to use, as it has the scale effect already built in. Otherwise look for a label that has an "ANA" number along with the words "olive drab." Olive drab with an "FS" number are modern and are different as you said. Regards, Hank -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Bill & Kaja Michaels" Subject: B-25 color >> Anyway, the B-25's for the Doolittle raid. I understand that the drab was more of a brown then green as is the drab today. If so what would be a good solution to what color to make them? << The Doolittle B-25s were painted the standard US Army WW2 Olive Drab. This color is available in most model paint lines. A lot has been written by our aircraft-modelling brethren about this color. Basically, Army OD faded towards a brownish color, so there's quite a range of colors that could be considered the "right" shade. Personally, I'd start with OD, and then lighten it a little for scale effect. HTH, Bill There are two rules for success in life: 1. Never tell someone everything you know. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Helldivers Back in the early 1930s there was a naval air station in Squantum (Quincy, Massachusetts) which had a complement ot Vought dive bombers. These aircraft were biplanes, and the upper wing was swept back. The Navy used a small pile of rocks in Quincy Bay for target practise. The "bombs" were solid cast iron, 8" long, 2" diameter, tapering to about 1" at the tail, with crude fins. It weighed 3 pounds. There was a hole runnibg all the way from front to back into which a special shotgun shell was inserted. The shell was filled with flash powder. The shell would detonate (ignite) upon impact wirh the rocks, water, or mud. Shore stations would observe the corresponding flash and by triangulation determine if a "hit" had occurred. When the Navy wasn't flying, we kids would row out to the target area and try to find "bombs" the Navy had not retrieved for recycling. I still have one of them. Recently I saw someone on TV who held one and advised the world that this was a bomb that was used in Viet Nam. I nearly broke a blood vessel laughing !!!!!!!!!!!!! Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Lkjohnson214@aol.com Subject: Re: Doolittle's B-25s I use Polly Scale's faded USAAC Olive drab for my USAAF planes. It represents how the pigment faded on the OD aircraft in service. When it dries, it is more of a russet brown than a green, but it is a close match for the color photos I have seen from the era. LD Johnson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Lump518176@aol.com Subject: SBD's/SB2C's outturning Zekes?! Don Morgan wrote a couple of days ago about divebombers outmaneuvering fighters after dropping their bombs. Not true and a very bad idea. Due to a shortage of F4F-3's in the VF's at Coral Sea Battle, SBD-3's were used as anti-torpedo plane CAP. A total of 23 SBD's were deployed and 6 were shot down, with 2 more jettisoned from Lex. due to battle damage. One SBD pilot of VS-2 (Lt.jg W. Hall) was awarded the Medal of Honor for his role in the CAP action. The SBD's claimed 17 shootdowns (including 6 Zeros), but postwar analysis actual tally of possibly 5 Kates and 1 Val. The practice of using SBD's as CAP aircraft was never repeated. The SBD could at times evade fighters (Zeros), but was usually "easy prey" for an experienced IJN fighter pilot. Remember the Zero outflew EVERY Allied fighter in the Pacific 1941 thru late 1942......and these Allied fighters certainly could outmaneuver any divebomber in service. Jerry Phillips -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Richard Sweeney Subject: Doolittle Raid/USAAC Olive Drab Hello. The Doolittle Raid coming as early in the War as it did the B-25's were painted in the Standard United States Army Air Corp Olive Drab. The Best commercially available version of is made by polyscale and called USAAC Olive Drab it represents the color used by the Army Air Corp in the 1930's and into the early 1940's, and is appropriate for the planes of the Doolittle Raid. Best Wishes. Richard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Richard Sweeney Subject: Battleships Hello Mr. Mok. Please do not reguard this as being spammed. Sometimes it is necessary view things relative to the periods in which they were created, but even that won't answer some of your revelations. The USS North Carolina Was big But in this day of Supertankers and Submarines that displacement is equal to that of a WWII Fleet Carrier, I'm sure she doesn't seem "humongous". Even in those days, ships had exceeded her size long before. Using your comparison of an Ocean Liner, The three "Olympic Class" liners of which RMS Titanic was the Middle sister were over 880 feet long (Titanic was 882 1/2 feet) While North Carolina is 728 ft 9 inches long. Even the Mauratania and Lusitania were longer. Also the late war Alaska Class "Large Crusiers" were 808 ft long. When North Carolina was built there were certain considerations She had to be able to transit the Panama Canal so her lenght and width were restricted to a size that could. The Iowa Class pushed the limits being only a few inches (I believe 3) narrower that the locks on the panama canal. Battleships have to balance width which gives them stability as a gun platform, with length which leads to hydrodynamic efficiency while passing through the water and effects speed. At the time she was built she was well designed. As for "Cramped quarters" she was designed for Fighting, not for comfort, but if she strikes you as cramped, please realize, American ships were considered almost luxurious compares to those of other nations. Many of our "Memorials" have much the same conditions you describe with their AA armorment, But they are not supposed to be operable. Aside from the rust many of the missing pieces that you mention may have been removed by the Navy to make sure those guns were not made operable again. My Two cents worth. Richard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Harry Gilday" Subject: U-Boat deck gun I am building a revell U BOAT, [U-99] AND I DONT KNOW WHAT COLOR TO PAINT THE DECK GUN. ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Harry Gilday" Subject: Seaview re-issue HI. I JUST FOUND OUT THAT POLAR LIGHTS MODEL COMPANY IS GOING TO REISSUE THE SEAVIEW [OLD AROUAUA -KIT] ACCORDING TO SCALE MODELER & POLOR LIGHTS, ITS DUE OUT IN MARCH 2002. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Graham Boak" Subject: Re: Doolittle's B-25s >> Here's an aircraft question for you. Yes I know but if the planes are going on a carrier then that qualifies as a ship type question if you look in the rule book. What rule book, there is none I'm making this up as I go. Anyway, the B-25's for the Doolittle raid. I understand that the drab was more of a brown then green as is the drab today. If so what would be a good solution to what color to make them? << Hi Keith Do you always pick controversial subjects? As the B-25s were new they would still appear fairly green, but a definite olive colour. Most of the paint companies produce a USAAF WW2 Olive drab colour so it really depends what your local shop stocks. I use Xtracolour, or various Humbrol shades (French Olive Drab was my favourite but it has gone now, and was probably not brown enough for the B-25). Graham Boak -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Henry T Chen" Subject: Shinano's 46cm guns Dear SMMLies, Does anybody know if the 46cm guns designed for Shinano were ever completed? Or, if incomplete, at what stage were they completed? Any chance any part of them survived the war, and can still be found today? Regards, Henry Chen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: rms Subject: WSW/B-Resina kits from the company formerly known as Rocky Mountain Shipyard Greetings! Please check out our web site for great prices on all WSW and B-Resina 1/700 resin ship kits: www.wic.net/~rms/ Available and listed are all of the new releases from both WSW and B-Resina. To see a profile line drawing of each vessel, click on the vessel name. ALSO: we have added the 1/700 resin ship accessories from WSW, plus all of the naval paint chip sets currently available from Snyder and Short. I will fax a purchase order to WSW in Germany on Monday, 3 December 2001. Questions/comments/orders? Please contact me off list: rms@wic.net Thanks and have a great weekend! Lisa D. Norman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: WTB: Amati Type VII U-boat Anyone got one they're willing to part with? Doesn't have to be collector grade, I intend to build it... Jeff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume