Subject: SMML VOL 1424 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 00:17:27 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Altmark 2: USS Skipjack (SSN-585) 3: Re: Shinano's 46cm guns 4: USS NC 5: Re: SBD's/SB2C's outturning Zekes?! 6: Re: Illustrious 7: Museum Ships 8: Re: SBD's/SB2C's outturning Zekes?! 9: Re: WTB: Amati Type VII U-boat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: The Kelly Class Destroyers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Chris Drage" Subject: Altmark Hi Gals and Guys, Anyone turned up anything on the Altmark at all. I managed to dig out a couple of useful pix and several written acounts of the HMS Cossack interception but that is all. Help! Regards Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo kupu kaore e taea te karo (Te reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Subject: USS Skipjack (SSN-585) Hi All I just got the 1:230 Revell USS Skipjack (SSN-585). Pretty barren on parts, and with a 3 bladed screw. Can anybody hazard a guess as to if this is correct? If not, where can a suitable replacement be had? Can anyone point me in the direction of the topside arrangement? Thanks, Glenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Shinano's 46cm guns >> Does anybody know if the 46cm guns designed for Shinano were ever completed? Or, if incomplete, at what stage were they completed? Any chance any part of them survived the war, and can still be found today? << I believe that one of the barrels from the Shinano resides at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds, in Maryland. A small section of the turret frontal armor that was tested, resides at the Washington Navy Yard. Unfortunately, both sites are at this time "Off Limit's" to the public. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Kelvin Mok" Subject: USS NC >> Many of our "Memorials" have much the same conditions you describe with their AA armorment, But they are not supposed to be operable. Aside from the rust many of the missing pieces that you mention may have been removed by the Navy to make sure those guns were not made operable again. << I agree entirely. I made this comment because from photos and the brochures much of the equipment looks in excellent condition. The natural desire for many enthusiasts would be to restore them to fighting trim. Can't be done, not with the AA armament on the ship. The same sentiment goes for any historical ship that had been exposed to the elements for years. From photos they look good. The USS NC looks just off the builder's yards. But to restore the ship, just replacing the painted over rusted plates would be impossibly expensive. To restore them to sailing condition would be impossible period. The AA gun directors are major deck fixtures. I seem not to notice these being represented on models. Am I mistaken? Also went to Charleston SC the following weekend. And how could I resist spending the whole day at Patriot's Point to see the Yorktown, one DD, one sub and a coast guard vessel. Again there is nothing like being inside a real ship to get a feel of the dimensions and conditions. Saw the onboard movie "The Fighting Lady" I think. Great wartime footage. Another Japanese practice that puzzles me. Their planes on the airfields were being shot up easy as arcade game targets. They were neatly lined up on their aprons or in clusters at the edge of the airfield. Didn't they ever think of parking them in sheltered embankments and under camo netting? Same kind of thinking as Kamikaze attack coming in at just the right altitude and angle that would allow the AA defence the greatest amount of time to remain engaged and get best angle to shoot them down. Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SolidStump@aol.com Subject: Re: SBD's/SB2C's outturning Zekes?! >> Don Morgan wrote a couple of days ago about divebombers outmaneuvering fighters after dropping their bombs. Not true and a very bad idea. Due to a shortage of F4F-3's in the VF's at Coral Sea Battle, SBD-3's were used as anti-torpedo plane CAP. A total of 23 SBD's were deployed and 6 were shot down, with 2 more jettisoned from Lex. due to battle damage. One SBD pilot of VS-2 (Lt.jg W. Hall) was awarded the Medal of Honor for his role in the CAP action. The SBD's claimed 17 shootdowns (including 6 Zeros), but postwar analysis actual tally of possibly 5 Kates and 1 Val. The practice of using SBD's as CAP aircraft was never repeated. The SBD could at times evade fighters (Zeros), but was usually "easy prey" for an experienced IJN fighter pilot. Remember the Zero outflew EVERY Allied fighter in the Pacific 1941 thru late 1942......and these Allied fighters certainly could outmaneuver any divebomber in service. << Don't see why the divebomber could not outmanuver a Zeke. They are stressed for very high gee for pullouts. If an SBD is flying at 200mph and a Zeke at 300, the turn radius of the SBD at six gee is at a minimum, 2/3 that of the zeke. At Midway, pilot testimony has it that the zekes could do little or nothing to stop the SBDs in a dive. The dive speed of the SBD stays constant while the fighter quickly goes to terminal V. So there's a tactic. At Midway, Zeros were reported to have tried to do what amounts to a flat spin, spiraling around the diving SBD to keep it in the gun sights. This would take some fancy deflection shooting too. I agree that an SBD would not make a good CAP aircraft, or last too long in a "flight" on "flight" encounter. A Zeke diving on an SBD poking along at 180mph cruise is tough on the SBD, but a one on one dogfight could be quite difficult for the Zero. Most SBD's got back from the Midway attacks. This can not all be attributed to the Jap fighters being away from the carriers to run down the survivors of the earlier american torpedo attacks. Some early biplane-monoplane encounters in Europe also suggested this. The bipes couldn't get the monoplanes cause they were too slow. But a maneuvering bipe was a tough target. Apologies to the ship people. But at least we are talking about Navy aircraft. Simon Scheuer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Illustrious >> Think this has been asked before but I can't find it so please humour me. What is the perceived knowledge of this ship's camouflage scheme for the Taronto raid? I have seen one "late 40" photo, starboard side, which appears to show a single colour with limited darker countershading. 507B on 507C? Was the flight deck 507A or would it have been over painted in PB10? << Most of the question has been answered by others, but I just wanted to chime in and note that PB10 was a submarine colour. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: John Snyder Subject: Museum Ships >> There are a couple of "smallboys" that were preserved from WW II however. << There are more than that. Though this list is a bit out of date, here's what's in the U.S. I have a list for the rest of the world as well, if anyone's interested: ALABAMA, South Dakota-class battleship launched 1942. Address: USS Alabama Battleship Commission, Battleship Parkway, P.O. Box 65, Mobile AL 36601; telephone (205) 433-2703. DRUM, Gato-class submarine launched 1941. Address: as for ALABAMA above. PAMPANITO, Balao-class submarine launched 1943. Address: The National Maritime Memorial Association, 680 Beach Street #330, San Francisco CA 94109; telephone (415) 556-8177. NAUTILUS, nuclear-powered attack submarine launched 1954. Address: Submarine Force Library and Museum, Naval Submarine Base, New London, Box 571, Groton CT 06349-5000; telephone (203) 449-3174. MOHAWK, Algonquin-class Coast Guard cutter launched 1934. Address: Mohawk Inc., 901 Washington Street, Wilmington DE 19801; telephone (302) 656-0400. BARRY, Forrest Sherman-class destroyer launched 1955. Address: The Navy Museum, Washington Navy Yard, 9th and M Streets SE, Washington, D.C. 20374-0571; telephone (202) 433-4882. INTELLIGENT WHALE, submarine completed 1863. Address: as for BARRY above. PHILADELPHIA, gondola completed 1776. Address: National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution, Constitution Avenue, Washington, D.C.; telephone (202) 357-2700. REQUIN, Tench-class submarine launched 1945. Address: Submarine Memorial, Hillsborough River, Tampa FL 33684; telephone (813) 223-7981. CHATTAHOOCHEE, gunboat completed 1862. Address: Confederate Naval Museum, P.O. Box 1022, Columbus GA 31902; telephone (404) 327-9798. JACKSON, ironclad ram launched 1864. Address: as for CHATTAHOOCHEE above. ARIZONA, Pennsylvania-class battleship launched 1915, lost 1941. Address: USS Arizona Memorial, 1 Arizona Memorial Place, Honolulu HI 96818; telephone (808) 422-2771. BOWFIN, Balao-class submarine launched 1942. Address: Pacific Fleet Submarine Memorial Association, 1 Arizona Memorial Drive, Honolulu HI 96818; telephone (808) 423-1341. UTAH, Florida-class battleship launched 1909, deactivated 1931, lost 1941. Address: as for ARIZONA above. RACHEL CARSON, ex-Crockett, Asheville-class patrol gunboat launched 1967. Address: The Great Lakes Naval and Maritime Museum, P.O. Box A-3785, Chicago IL 60690; telephone (312) 819-0055. U-505, type IXC submarine launched 1941, captured 1944. Address: The Museum of Science and Industry, Jackson Square, 57th Street and South Lakeshore Drive, Chicago IL 60637-2093; telephone (312) 684-1414. KIDD, Fletcher-class destroyer launched 1943. Address: Louisiana Naval War Memorial, P.O. Box 44242, Baton Rouge LA 70804; telephone (504) 342-1982. CABOT, Independence-class light aircraft carrier laid down as Cleveland-class light cruiser Wilmington, launched 1943, transferred to Spain 1967, returned to U.S. 1989. Address: Dedalo/Cabot Museum Foundation, P.O. Box 6578, New Orleans LA 70174; telephone (504) 568-0219 or (504) 568-9055. PIONEER, submarine completed 1862 Address: Louisiana State Museum, 751 Chartres Street, P.O. Box 2448, New Orleans LA 70176; telephone (504) 568-6968. X-1, experimental midget submarine launched 1955. Address: U.S. Naval Academy Museum, Annapolis MD 21402; telephone (301) 267-2108 or (301) 267-2109. CONSTELLATION, frigate launched 1797. Address: Baltimore Office of Promotion and Tourism, 34 Market Street, Baltimore MD 21202; telephone (301) 837-4636. TANEY, Treasury-class Coast Guard cutter launched 1936. Address: Baltimore Maritime Museum, Pier Four, Pratt Street, Baltimore MD 21202; telephone (301) 396-5528. TORSK, Tench-class submarine launched 1944. Address: as for TANEY above. CASSIN YOUNG, late Fletcher-class destroyer launched 1943. Address: U.S. Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Boston National Historical Park, Charlestown Navy Yard, Boston MA 02129. CONSTITUTION, frigate launched 1797. Address: USS Constitution, Department of the Navy, charlestown Navy Yard, Boston MA 02129; telephone (617) 426-1812. JOSEPH P. KENNEDY, JR., Gearing-class destroyer launched 1945. Address: USS Massachusetts Memorial Committee, Inc., Battleship Cove, Fall River MA 02721; telephone (617) 678-1100. LCM-56, Higgins type landing craft built during WWII. Address: as for KENNEDY above. LIONFISH, Balao-class submarine launched 1943. Address: as for KENNEDY and LCM-56 above. MASSACHUSETTS, South Dakota-class battleship launched 1941. Address: as for KENNEDY, LCM-56 and LIONFISH above. PT-617, Elco patrol torpedo boat completed 1945. Address: as for KENNEDY, LCM-56, LIONFISH and MASSACHUSETTS above. PT-796, Higging patrol torpedo boat completed during WWII. Address: as for KENNEDY, LCM-56, LIONFISH, MASSACHUSETTS and PT-617 above. SILVERSIDES, Gato-class submarine launched 1941. Address: USS Silversides, 1322 Rudiman Avenue, Morth Muskegon MI 49443; telephone (616) 744-9117. CAIRO, ironclad river gunboat launched 1862, lost 1862, salvaged 1964. Address: Vicksburg National Military Park, 3201 Clay Street, Vicksburg MS 39180. INAUGURAL, Admirable-class minesweeper launched 1944. Address: USS Inaugural, Warship Inc., 300 North Wharf Street, St. Louis MO 63102; telephone (304) 421-1511. HAZARD, Admirable-class minesweeper launched 1944. Address: Freedom Park, Greater Omaha Military Historical Society, Box 9056, Station C, Omaha NE 68110; telephone (402) 733-4654. MARLIN, Mackerel-class training submarine launched 1953. Address: as for HAZARD above. ALBACORE, research submarine launched 1953. Address: Portsmouth Submarine Memorial Association, P.O. Box 4367, Portsmouth NH 03801; telephone (603) 436-3680. LING, Balao-class submarine launched 1943. Address: Submarine Memorial Association, P.O. Box 395, Hackensack NJ 07602; telephone (201) 487-9493. HOLLAND PROTOTYPE, submarine launched 1868. Address: Paterson Museum, 2 Market Street, Paterson NJ 07501; telephone (210) 881-3839. HOLLAND II (FENIAN RAM), submarine launched 1881. Address: as for HOLLAND PROTOTYPE above. CROAKER, Gato-class submarine launched 1943. Address: Buffalo and Erie County Naval Servicemenıs Park, 1 Naval Park Cove, Buffalo NY 14202; telephone (716) 847-1773. LITTLE ROCK, Cleveland-class light cruiser launched 1943, modernized 1960. Address: as for CROAKER above. PTF-17, Nasty-class fast patrol craft built 1968. Address: as for CROAKER and LITTLE ROCK above. THE SULLIVANS, Fletcher-class destroyer launched 1943. Address: as for CROAKER, LITTLE ROCK and PTF-17 above. EDSON, Forrest Sherman-class destroyer launched 1958. Address: Sea-Air-Space Museum, West 46th Street and 12th Avenue, New York NY 19936. GROWLER, Growler-class guided missile submarine launched 1959. Address: as for EDSON above. INTREPID, Essex-class aircraft carrier launched 1943, modernized 1955-57. Address: as for EDSON and GROWLER above. TICONDEROGA, schooner launched 1815. Address: The Skenesborough Museum, Skenesborough Drive, Whitehall NY 12887; telephone (518) 499-0716. NEUSE, ironclad ram launched 1863, lost 1865, salvaged 1963. Address: Caswell-Neuse Museum, P.O. Box 3043, Kinston NC 28501. NORTH CAROLINA, North Carolina-class battleship launched 1940. Address: USS North Carolina Battleship Commission, P.O. Box 417, Wilmington NC 28402; telephone (919) 762-1829. COD, Gato-class submarine launched 1943. Address: Cleveland Coordinating Committee for USS Cod, 1089 East 9th Street, Cleveland OH; telephone (216) 271-7310. BATFISH, Balao-class submarine launched 1943. Address: Muskogee War Memorial Park and Military Museum, P.O. Box 253, Muskogee OK 74401; telephone (918) 682-6294. NIAGARA, 2-masted brig launched 1813, sunk 1820, raised 1913, reconstruction completed 1990. Address: Erie County Historical Society, 417 State Street, Erie PA 16501; telephone (814) 454-2744. BECUNA, Balao-class submarine launched 1944. Address: Cruiser Olympia Association, Inc., P.O. Box 928, Philadelphia PA 19105; telephone (215) 922-1898. OLYMPIA, protected cruiser launched 1892, Deweyıs flagship at Manila in 1898. Address: as for BECUNA above. H.L. HUNLEY, replica submarine. Address: Charleston Museum, 3600 Meeting Street, Charleston SC 29403; telephone (803) 722-2996. CLAMAGORE, Balao-class submarine launched 1945. Address: Patriots Point Naval and Maritime Museum, P.O. Box 986, Mount Pleasant SC 29464; telephone (803) 884-2727. INGHAM, Treasury-class Coast Guard cutter launched 1936. Address: as for CLAMAGORE above. LAFFEY, Sumner-class destroyer launched 1943. Address: as for CLAMAGORE and INGHAM above. YORKTOWN, Essex-class aircraft carrier launched 1943, modernized in 1950s. Address: as for CLAMAGORE, INGHAM, and LAFFEY above. MSB-5, minesweeping boat built between 1952 and 1956. Address: Pate Museum of Transportation, P.O. Box 711, Fort Worth TX 76101; telephone (817) 396-4305. CAVALLA, Gato-class submarine launched 1943. Address: City Park Board, P.O. Box 3306, Galveston TX 77550; telephone (409) 744-5738. STEWART, destroyer escort launched 1942. Address: as for CAVALLA above. TEXAS, New York-class battleship launched 1912. Address: Battleship Texas State Historical Site, 3527 Battleground Road, La Porte TX 77571; telephone (713) 479-2411. COBIA, Gato-class submarine launched 1943. Address: Manitowoc Maritime Museum, 75 Maritime Drive, Manitowoc WI 54220-6843; telephone (414) 684-0218. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: donald p morgan Subject: Re: SBD's/SB2C's outturning Zekes?! I don't want to embark on a long winded and space consuming argument with Mr. Phillips, but if he will examine published figures on weights and wing areas for Zeke fighters and SBD divebombers, he will find that the SBD, minus its bomb load, has a significantly lower wing loading than the Jap acft. Wing loading, is not the sole criterion for determining superior manoeuverability, but it is the major factor. A second factor is known as "tail authority" and if he will examine any set of 3-views for these airplanes, he will also note that while both acft are similar in size, the SBD has a significantly larger horizontail tail assembly. When a pilot is indulging in very tight turns, it is the horizontal tail rather than the rudder and vertical fin which are actually controlling the maneuver. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "David N. Lombard" Subject: Re: WTB: Amati Type VII U-boat >> Anyone got one they're willing to part with? Doesn't have to be collector grade, I intend to build it... << Jeff, Check out Model Expo, http://www.modelexpoinc.com/ They have them brand-spanking-new at $199. No connection, just a satisfied customer... David N. Lombard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Chris & Lulu Langtree" Subject: The Kelly Class Destroyers Hi All A quick update of the progress on my book. I have just received the draft layout proofs which are very nice. Now I've got to read through them and correct the mistakes. Photos come out very well but I am going to see if I can slip another late arrival in. March 2002 is still on for a publication date. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume