Subject: SMML VOL 1426 Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:31:52 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: WTB: Amati Type VII U-boat 2: Revell Skipjack et al 3: NO 3" Single Enclosed Guns available... 4: Tirpitz references 5: Re: Altmark 6: HMS Illustrious - 11 Nov, 1940 7: Re: USS Gourley 8: Re: Museum ships 9: British military hovercraft of 1970s, sold abroad? 10: Museum Ships 11: Re: Museum Ships 12: USS Des Maines CA - 134 13: USS OREGON 14: Resin model building 15: Miniture Lathes - Metal & Wood 16: Perkasa Vosper MTB rigging -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: US Navy Subchaser -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: WTB: Amati Type VII U-boat >> Anyone got one they're willing to part with? Doesn't have to be collector grade, I intend to build it... << Jeff, Spotted one on the 'Bay http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1668175227 Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Rod Dauteuil Subject: Revell Skipjack et al Hello SMMLies, I tend to go both ways when building a ship; Sometimes I'll go all out with detail, add brass railings and ladders, etc. Other times I prefer to build straight out of the box. Such was the case with my Skipjack. I read the posts which claimed the sail was incorrectly shaped, the screw was wrong, and the reactor hatch was prototypically incorrect. But to be honest I didn't care. I built this model for fun, and had fun as I built it. It went together easily (all 16 pieces!), the seams needed a little sanding and lines re-scribing, but overall it was fun. Personally speaking, I sometimes lose sight of the fun of building and making the model while doing the arduous task of researching the prototype and worrying about the details. But this model was enjoyable, and I found a reference picture of it in the book "Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet", from around 1970. By the way, the decals are very thin, and adhere well to the hull. I painted my model overall flat black, then sprayed Testors glosscote for a satin finish. When the decals dried, they were satin just like the finish and the edges are hardly noticeable. And the model even comes with a nice little display stand. What more could a modeler ask for! I tend to think that there are a lot more of us out here in SMML land than will admit it. What I mean is modelers who don't necessarily go through all the time and effort of researching a particular ship, making sure that the details are represented in the model. Instead they make models out of the box, and rather than spending their time on research, maybe they concentrate on a making superb paint job to make the model stand out. Or maybe they make the model in a basic diorama for a presentation. I highly respect the work of some of the listmembers (Chris Drage's ships come to mind) but I guess the bottom line is what each one of us considers to be time well spent. At least that's one person's opinion. Rod -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Ralph Batykefer" Subject: NO 3" Single Enclosed Guns available... Hello All, I've posted this request at various websites and have not had a response. One last time in case somebody thought someone else would answer. Is there any available 3" single enclosed gun mounts available in 1/700 scale from Skywave or otherwise. I'm a modern modeler and do not have any of the older or WWII Skywave naval weapons kits to investigate. Thanks... IHS, Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Damian Pliszka Subject: Tirpitz references Hi, You should try AJ-Press (Poland) 2 parts monography about Tirpitz. Great plans, great photos and bilingual (English captions and summary). Home this helps. Damian Pliszka Slupsk, Poland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Erhardtsen" Subject: Re: Altmark Chris Drage wrote in SMML 1424: >> Anyone turned up anything on the Altmark at all. I managed to dig out a couple of useful pix and several written acounts of the HMS Cossack interception but that is all. << As I did build Altmark (and her sisterships) some years ago in scale 1/700, and fore that, I made resine copy's of the hull. I did send him some scan, but the mail are returned - His address does not work - that might be the reason, that he does not get any respond Erik Erhardtsen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: HMS Illustrious - 11 Nov, 1940 I read with some interest about this very topic as carrier camouflage schemes are a favorite of mine. Chris Burton stated that there was a previous year's discussion about Illustrious' in a two-color scheme of 507A and 507C, attributed to Alan Raven. In Paul Kemp's book "A Pictorial History Of The SEA WAR 1939-1945", on pages 26 and 27 there is a port side photograph showing Illustrious in a three-color scheme that is somewhat at variance than what Alan Raven shows in his second book on RN camouflage during 1942 on pages 16 and 28. Though the date of this photograph is not mentioned, the aircraft complement of Swordfish, Fulmars, and with a single Martlet parked forward with its wings folded, should give a clear clue as to when this shot was taken, which would have definitely been after the Taranto raid. As late as August 1942 during Operation PEDESTAL, Fulmars were among the fighter complement aboard Indomitable as were Sea Hurricanes. Returning to Illustrious' three-color scheme, photographic evidence must be consulted to arrive at any conclusions on what colors were worn at what time. In Lowry and Wellman's book "THE ATTACK ON TARANTO, Blueprint for Pearl Harbor", there is a 1940 photograph of Eagle in a distinct two-tone color-scheme. And, these two colors do match the tonal quality of Eagle's lighter two colors in her three-color scheme for PEDESTAL as shown in Kemp's book. Raven's book places Eagles colors in 1942 as being 507A, B5 and 507C. If he is correct, then Eagle was predominately B5 with 507C fighting tops and black masts and funnels during 1940. Also in the Lowry and Wellman's book there is a June 1940 photograph of Illustrious that matches the tonal quality of the just mentioned colors for Eagle during the same time period. The Illustrious photograph during 1940 clearly shows that the AAA turrets were painted in a much lighter color than the rest of the vessel, and very closely matches the color of Eagle's fighting tops, probably 507C. What does bother me about the John W.G. Welham and Fleet Air Arm Museum negative #CARS I/171 that we are discussing about Illustrious in June 1940, is the clear fact that the funnel area on the port side is a distinctly different and darker shade than the rest of the port island's main structure. The areas immediately forward of the port side island structure are also in this darker shade of paint as is the forward port side AAA sponson. The starboard forward AAA sponson is in the same relative lighter shade as the main part of the port side island structure. As the #CARS I/171 negative clearly shows a very dark and reflective wet port side of the hull, which also matches the full port side view in Kemp's book, then it can be safely assumed that at least the full hull was in 507A. The photograph in Kemp's book shows the vertical side areas of the forward AAA sponson, this station's AAA turrets, and the vertical areas over the walkway forward of this sponson as being painted in a lighter tone the rest of the hull. Strangely enough, if you examine this same area in the #CARS I/171 negative you could find the exact same area similarly painted except for the very forward and rounded vertical part of the port side AAA sponson. The roof area over the port side forward AAA sponson and the covered walkway area forward of the sponson there are some very interesting clues to the colors of this area of Illustrious. The roof of the port forward walkway area in front of the AAA sponson, the Port forward sponson's AAA turrets, and at least the vertical sides to the port forward sponson are the same light color as the rest of Illustrious' turrets, which matches the full port side shot of her in Kemp's book. This lighter color is most probably 507C. What can be conclusively deduced so far between the #CARS I/171 negative and the port side view of Illustrious in Kemp's book is that both photographs clearly show a hull that is mostly 507C. The #CARS I/171 negative does not show the area of the hull forward of the walkway area discussed above being painted in an intermediate but still dark color as is very clear in the Kemp example. The Kemp book also shows a very distinct "false bow wave" painted in a color that is an exact match for the turret and sponson sides, which must be 507C. So far it can be confirmed that the #CARS I/171 negative shows clear signs of the start of the paint job that would end in the full three-color paint scheme that she would end up with in 1942. What now must be deduced from the #CARS I/171 negative of June 1940 is what the disparity of colors on the port side of the island mean if anything. What is definitely clear from both the #CARS I/171 negative and the Kemp book is the fact that the port side of the island structure is a definite and distinctly different color than the much darker hull or the much lighter AAA sponson areas. The #CARS I/171 negative and the Kemp book both agree in tonal value for the island structure's intermediate color if one ignores the Kemp's later three-color scheme on the island's port sides. The #CARS I/171 negative shows the AAA forward areas in front of the island structure, the HADC mount, and the funnel in the same 507A as the hull, with the rest of the island in this as yet unidentified intermediate color. Raven identifies the later three-color camouflage colors of Illustrious as being 507A, B5 and 507C. So, the intermediate color that the #CARS I/171 negative and the Kemp book show for the majority of the port side of the island structure is B5. It now can be conclusively stated that the #CARS I/171 negative at least shows the initial attempts to paint Illustrious in a three-color camouflage scheme as early as June 1940, though only in the most broadest sense. As the camouflage scheme for Illustrious in the photograph in the Kemp book is at variance to Raven's illustration of her on page 28 of his book, it seems quite clear that the Raven illustration is later than that of Illustrious in the Kemp book. Starting from the already established above basis of a very crude area camouflaging of Illustrious in three-colors in the #CARS I/171 negative, the Kemp scheme developed along these lines. Both of the HADC mounts were left in 507C, while the funnel was repainted in B5 to match the rest of the forward port side island structure. The rising curving band of 507C started at the base of the port side island structure and was about as wide as half of the height to the lower bridge wing extensions. This 507C band continues its curve up to the lowest part of the rear end of the said bridge wing extensions to the foremost base of the funnel, where it follows the straight base line of the entire funnel's length. From the end of the funnel, the 507C band starts its downward curve to the forward end of the rear HADC mount. It appears as if the entire area below the rear HADC mount was painted in 507C down to the flightdeck level. The lowest and darkest band of color on Illustrious' port side island structure was the 507A. This dark curved area appears to start at flightdeck level about mid-distance along the line of the port side island bridge wings. The 507A area rises to its highest point at about the forward edge of Illustrious' funnel, and is about in line with the midpoint of the bridge wing extensions total height. This 507A band slightly undulates downward along the length of the funnel, where it then starts a more pronounced curvature downward to meet at the flightdeck level about in the HADC mount's centerline. In the Kemp book, Illustrious has the forward section of the hull's port side from the forward covered walkway down to the hull's knuckle at anchor level painted in B5. Just below this area of B5 is a very thin strip of 507A, and immediately below this area is a 507C false bow wave painted as far back as the rear of the forward deckedge searchlight stations. Also in the Kemp photograph it shows that at the hanger deck level openings there were splinter or weather screens around the railings that were in a color that closely matches the tonal quality of B5. The port side ship's boats are all painted in B5, with the admiral's launch tops painted in white. Concerning the flightdeck colors of Illustrious during the Taranto raid and later, the #CARS I/171 clearly shows no camouflage scheme at all. The deck colors of #CARS I/171 and that of Eagle, #CARS E/15 in the Lowry and Wellman's book, appear to have the same tonal quality. This color appears worn in spots of high traffic areas as one would expect, but some of the larger areas of the deck do seem to match the 507A of Illustrious' forward AAA positions. It would be a safe guess to think that both Eagle and Illustrious both had flight decks in 507A. In closing, if there is any interest in the subject, I could discuss the camouflaged flight decks of Victorious and Indomitable during PEDESTAL, as well as Victorious' different colors for its three-colors used for Illustrious or Eagle. Harold Stockton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Gourley >> st inherited a partially completed, Vietnam era, model Ashley class [?] frigate the USS Gourley. << I think you've been had. A quick check through Friedman, Fahey, and a couple other references failed to turn up any USN vessels named ASHLEY or GOURLEY. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Re: Museum ships The Constellation museum folks gave up the fiction that she was the 18th century vessel a while ago. The Navy never subscribed to this idea; it was put forward by previous museum people, to the point that she was horribly rebuilt into a weird conglomeration, which is wisely being corrected by the latest overhaul. She is also the last sail-only ship built for the USN. It is _possible_ she carries a few bits and pieces from the 18th century vessel, since she was being torn down as the existing ship was being built. I can see some carpenter carrying over a few bits of wood and building them into the new ship for nostalgic reasons, but there's no historical record of such. As for the Cabot, blaming only the EPA is not fair. There's plenty of blame to go around to many different groups since she left Spanish service. I was lucky enough to see and photograph her in New Orleans. And the Iowas were 108' in beam, 2' narrower than the Panama Canal locks. Joe Poutre http://www.bb62museum.org/usnavmus.html http://www.bb62museum.org/wrldnmus.html http://www.bb62museum.org/airmus.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: British military hovercraft of 1970s, sold abroad? Who can give info on the BHC BH.7 type aka Wellington and the Vosper Thornycroft VT.2? When delivered? To whom? armament? Thank you in advance!!! Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://www.geocities.com/friedkappes/flagship.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: Museum Ships For a complete and up to date lisitng of naval ship museums in North America and other locations, go to the Historic Naval Ships Association Visitors Guide at: http://208.55.65.156/hnsa-guide.htm John Frohock USNSM USS Salem (CA139) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Museum Ships The comments made in reply to the list I sent are all pertinent: REQUIN has moved, CABOT is no more, and CONSTELLATION (much to the consternation of the City of Baltimore) is now correctly acknowledged not to be a sister frigate to CONSTITUTION, but rather a newer, smaller ship. The list was copied from a book several years ago, and I've not updated it since. RED OAK VICTORY at Richmond, California is not included, and there are probably others as well. I certainly can't vouch for all the non-U.S. entries that the file also contains. Still, it's a starting point. As for those ships that have had concrete decks inflicted on them, I can't imaging a worse solution from a historic preservation standpoint. It may have been the least expensive solution in the short term, but in the long run it will cost far more to rectify all the problems caused. That concrete WILL develop microcracks, it WILL leak, and it WILL then largely seal water between the concrete and underlying steel elements, where it can't be reached without removing the concrete. You can see where this will lead in the long term.... Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: USS Des Maines CA - 134 http://cincinnati.com/technology/wiredcincy/112101_cincinnati.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: USS OREGON I just received the YS 1/350 kit of USS OREGON from Pacific Front. While it will be sometime next year before I can build this model I thought I would let you know my first impressions, just by looking in the box. More things will turn up I'm sure when I actually get to build it. The short review is........... FANTASTIC, surely the best kit of any US ship of that era that I have ever seen. A quick look through does show a few problems, none of which that cannot be overcome. The hull casting looks great. I have one small place I will have to fix at the bow. There are some very minor air bubbles on the bottom (the casting lug has already been removed for you) but since I make all my models waterline that means nothing to me. The semicircular blast shields in the deck below the muzzles of the 13 inch guns are missing, they will have to be added. The brass sheets look fine. Some of the rails might be a slight bit heavy but I think they will do. If not there are plenty of 1/350 brass rails available. All else looks good with the exception of the etched anchor chain, I'd replace that with real chain. For some reason, the pilot house is upside down. It will have to be cut from the deck it is cast with and turned over. This is complicated just a bit by the parts of two ventilator tubes which are cast on the bottom but I think it can be done. For those of you who complain about instructions in these kind of kits, you are in for a very pleasant surprise. Would you believe a spiral bound booklet with very clear drawings and text to show you where every part goes??? It's true. It even has a full color sheet showing three color schemes she wore. I will have to wait until I do the build to determine how good this booklet is but it looks great. I did notice a few things though, What the instructions call the conning tower and the cone are both really the military mast. The armored conning tower was built into the base of the military mast and is actually part of the hull casting. It shows using a piece of stretched spur as the anchor arms and it shows them straight. Wire would be better and they have a 90 degree bend in them so that they can be folded. That's all I can say right now. I wish I could start on it but there are other projects that bar the way. It looks like a winner and I would recommend it to anyone. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: NEVENGER@aol.com Subject: Resin model building I am thinking about purchasing a resin model and was wondering if I want to do a full hull if it better to get one that is not cut at the water line? From what I have read on a split at the water line hull they seem to warp and you have to cut up the bottom half to make it fit. Is warpage also a problem for a one piece hull or the top half of a 2 piece model? I hear you can heat up the hull and rebend it. What are the pros and cons of this? Also what is advised for a good glue to put and hold the hull together? Sincerely, Rich -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Steve James" Subject: Miniture Lathes - Metal & Wood G'Day SMMLies, I have just seen an excellent metal lathe at a very reasonable price here in OZ. The seller is the manufacturer & he actually uses them! They seem like great value to me & as they run on 12 volts should be easy to run O/S as well. Gun barrels made easy!! Their address is http://www.clisby.com.au/ and with the Pacific Peso at 2:1 with the Greenback, postage will be negligible. I would have bought one except the clutch on Land Cruiser's has gone.......... Cheers, Steve Like "Mike from Seattle" I am not a member of any Cartel, nor am I a share-holder, & related to any-one at Clisby by birth or marriage!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "=?utf-8?Q?enrico=5Fvilla@libero.it?=" Subject: Perkasa Vosper MTB rigging Hi everybody, could anybody suggest where I can find a rigging scheme for the Perkasa Vosper MTB (Malaysian Navy)? I found a Tamiya kit which I built a few years ago without rigging that I would like to "upgrade". Thanks a lot! Enrico -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "DarekL" Subject: US Navy Subchaser Hi All, after long absence I'd like to announce that the Paper-Lab subchaser is finally available. If you'd like to have more information on the subject, please visit our website at http://www.paperlab.com/index.html and do some exploration. Relative info has been posted in several sections like Models, 3D and Store. Enjoy Darek -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume